Croxley tip.

[Arun Sharma]

I'm not sure when the General Purpose prefix was introduced, and the book which would have told me (Workhorses of the London Underground) has disappeared somewhere since we moved house (typical).

 

I always thought that it was a general term dating back quite a long way, but going through the panniers book, it seems like all the low deck wagons with the removable panels were prefixed in the Flat series during steam days and the GP was a later introduction.

 

I'm not entirely sure why LT decided to differentiate between the earlier design Flat and the General Purpose wagons, and having worked on some of them in preservation, I would be hard pressed to tell the difference. I have some drawings of more recent vehicles which show up differences in later batches, and further muddy the waters with the introduction of purpose built rail wagons, and that's before the special rebuilds!

L49 is correct. The photos in this thread show 30Ton Gloucester R&CW-built Flat wagons not GP wagons. All these wagons had [i believe] the diamond shaped frame bogies and are available in 4mm and 7mm from Radley Models - though Phil for reasons not immediately obvious, does erroneously call them GP wagons and show them painted yellow on his web site. These Flat wagons were generally painted a medium grey or occasionally a dirty black colour like the rail wagons. It may be that the later [1950s and highest numbered] flat wagons that were built by Ashford have different bogies than the earlier vehicles. The GP wagons are a much more recent [though outwardly similar] design - and were built by Procor in the late '80s - early '90s.

 

Ted675

[Lord of Narnia]

I assumed the term GP wagons was only adopted in 1985 but I could be wrong.

[Xerces Fobe2]

 

There is a photo in Britain from Above http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/

 

of The Croxley Paper Mills, in 1932 (Image reference EPW039595) this has the gravel pit which became the Croxley tip in the background and the track layout seems to have included several sidings and a widely spaced run round in line with Dave's photo. I'd assume that LT simply used the existing layout and eventually scrapped the sidings surplus to their requirements.

 

The note appended to the photo  says

Croxley Gravel Tip.

One of several gravel workings in the local area that supplied gravel for the use in the construction of the British Empire Exhibition and Empire Stadium buildings in Wembley. This particular site had a direct railway connection to the Metropolitan Railway.

The excavated site was later used as a landfill area for waste and spoil from the Metropolitan Railway works at Neasden, when it was known as Croxley (or Watford) Tip Sidings. This use declined during the 1970s and was abandoned by London Transport.

 

The note is signed from someone calling himself The Laird who might perhaps be someone we know here.

 

You need to register with Britain from Above to zoom in on the photo to see the sidings but it's fairly easy to do that.

 

As with many of the aerial photos in the collection the focus was on the factory or whatever who were Aerofilms' client. The very useful images of the railway that often appear in them are incidental and unfortunately the other photos of the paper mill from that flight are taken from angles that don't include the gravel sidings.

 

The railway companies don't unfortunately appear to have been great users of Aerofilms' services but they are nevertheless a mine of useful data.

 

 

 

David- Croxley Mills was a branch off the old LNWR Rickmansworth Church Street branch which closed in the early 1980's and this is not the same site as Croxley Tip which was connected to the Metropolitan Line which are  @ a mile apart however you could see Croxley Mills quite clearly from the Croxley Tip site.

 

Nigel

[Xerces Fobe2]

Having just dug out my copy of "London Underground  Steam" by Kevin McCormack I came across many pictures of Croxley Tip and trains and it appears that there must have bee a run round loop at the Tip site as there is a picture of a pushing loaded wagons into the sidings with a brake van at the other end of the loco.

 

 

Nigel

[Pacific231G]

David- Croxley Mills was a branch off the old LNWR Rickmansworth Church Street branch which closed in the early 1980's and this is not the same site as Croxley Tip which was connected to the Metropolitan Line which are  @ a mile apart however you could see Croxley Mills quite clearly from the Croxley Tip site.

 

Nigel

Nigel

I know that but the tip site can be clearly seen in the background of one of the aerial photos of Croxley Mills that aerofilms took in 1932. I did actually say that in my post. and that's why I suggested subscribing to Britain From Above (it's free) in order to be able to zoom in to see that background detail.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. I've explored that area on foot and knew about the proximity of the paper mill to the tip, at their closest only a few hundred yards apart though on opposite sides of the GUC.

 

Britain from Above is a particularly valuable source especially if you remember that, compared with a ground level view,  a clear aerial photo will generally include a lot more of the surrounding area as well as its intended subject.

 

Update: I've just looked at the Britain from Above site again and Aerofilms also photographed the paper mills in 1926. In two of those photos EPW015995 and EPW015996 the eastern end of the tip (then a gravel pit) and its sidings can be seen far more closely. It looks like three sidings necking down to a single buffer stop so there certainly was a run round even if LT abandoned some of the trackage. Unfortunately it's not clear from the 1945 image in Google Earth how much of the original layout was retained by LT but it seems very unlikely that they would have relaid the sidings.

[Xerces Fobe2]

Nigel

I know that but the tip site can be clearly seen in the background of just one of the aerial photos of Croxley Mills that aerofilms took in 1932. I did actually say that in my post. and that's why I suggested subscribing to Britain From Above (it's free) in order to be able to zoom in to see that background detail.

 

I've explored that area on foot and knew about the proximity of the paper mill to the tip so I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Britain from Above is a particularly valuable source especially if you remember that, compared with a ground level view,  a clear aerial photo will generally include a lot more of the surrounding area than its intended subject.

 

Having read your post again I can see that you were saying that the gravel pit not the Mills siding were reused which I would concur with.  I too have walked the both the Rickmansworth Church Street and Croxley Green Branches and identified where Croxley Mills was located.  The best book about the area is the long out of print West of Watford Book by Goude and Stuckey and I have met with Douglas Stuckey on a few occasions and he has a wealth about the rail ways of this area.

 

I came across the Britain From Above a few yeas back and the picture of Croxley (LMS) Depot is interesting as on the former Colne Jct. - Croxley Jct. line are rows of stored goods wagons!   I am note interested in the former LNWR branches in that area however on my Croxley WRD layout we do run some LT Panniers and I am the process of build my first GP wagon which I hope to have at the Acton Depot Open Weekend. If you are around on that weekend why not come down and visit us - There are details on my Facebook site  and there is a link at the bottom of this post

 

Nigel

[Pacific231G]

Having read your post again I can see that you were saying that the gravel pit not the Mills siding were reused which I would concur with.  I too have walked the both the Rickmansworth Church Street and Croxley Green Branches and identified where Croxley Mills was located. 

 

I did find a short section of the paper mill trackage still in situ at the western end of the site (now a housing estate) beside the canal and I think I could identify it from one of the Aerofilms shots. The tip site yielded only an almost unlimited supply of cracked third rail insulators. I didn't have a particular interest in either but there's nothing like a bit of railway archaeology to make a Sunday afternoon walk along the canal more interesting.  For me though the most interesting thing round there was the remnants of the 2 ft gauge waterworks railway.

I hope to make it to the Depot weekend so look forward to seeing your layout there- from the facebook page it looks good.

[TravisM]

I was told that the "tip" train was made up of ash from steam loco's, spent ballast and general rubbish that couldn't be sold off as scrap.  It could have contained some waste from Neasden power station but not much as it had large amounts of asbestos and that's why it took so long to demolish.

 

I think the tip closed in the 70's because LT had little use for it.

 

Julian Sprott

[RThompson]

The wagons in the photo appear to be what are now known as GP wagons. Unlike the 1986 procor built ones the old type have diamond frame bogies. I believe Radley models have redone their kit but I'm not sure they have the correct bogies now. Ratio do spare bogies at a reasonable price. Of course you could build your own like me!

Whilst they may be more expensive than the ratio bogies, I produce the correct bogies from my RW wagon kit.

 

http://www.rtmodels.co.uk/rt_models_032.htm

 

And the Hurst nelson brake vans

http://www.rtmodels.co.uk/rt_models_031.htm

[London cambrian]

Theres several maps of the croxley tips at various years times, that show the sidings were regulalry moved around as stated by various sources. The basic layout seems to have comprised a loop (or two at times) with a siding off one side that seems to have been used to store cranes and the coal wagon at various times. Then at the north-east end were several sidings, anything upto 5 or 6 in some plans. at the other end was a short spur that headed towards the mainline junction which presumably acted as the limit of shunt to the site. Theres various pictures of the site which rarely totally match up.

I cant remember the book the plans appeared in but they were in one of Clive Foxell's recent offerings on the Met line, published i think during 2012.

 

That book and many other books show trains of anything upto 5 flat wagons with two brake van (neccessary because of the run round at watford) being taken to and from the tip. Return loads of logs were not uncommon it seems, certainly during the reign of the red panniers and the demolition of the power station.

 

I haven't seen many pictures of the tip during Met or early (pre pannier) days. But the ones i have seen feature more of a mixture of the standard former Met goods wagon as used for ash workings and the low LT wagons. I'd suggest (and i have in the back of my mind a memory of reading it too) that ash from Neasden power station was indeed disposed of at croxley (i remember that i think because it said the other power stations were supplied and emptied by barge) particularly if they didn't, between the late 1930s and the 1960s when the power station was demolished i doubt there'd have been much traffic to the tip.

 

Hopethis is of some help. I'll try and dig up the book with the plans, though i have a feeling i borrowed that one! If not i'm pretty sure i took some sketches of the layout as its something i've contemplated several times....

 

Alternatively try oldmaps, which is a free service of online viewable OS maps dating right the way back to the 1800s for some locations

 

all the best

 

LC

[London cambrian]

Just had a check on old-maps http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html (search croxley green) there is a map of the site from 1932-39 though could possibly be a little earlier because the watford branch has yet to be built on it! shows the original ballast sidings that were on the site of where the junction is today. The 1960's map shows a still quite condensed site (so i'd suggest its late 50's really, before they started chopping trees to dump on the site) with a clearly visible track plan, thats really quite complex, beyond the inglenok for sure.

 

At that time it appears the site possessed two run round loops, an most of the sidings were orientated towards the main line to the southwest. it must have been later they were dumping to the north more.

[Broadway Clive]

I worked on the Met in 1964/5, and from observing the tip trains, the contents of the flat wagons appeared to be mostly broken concrete, which I assumed to be from tube track renewals, where the track is set in concrete. At this time the Neasden power station was still standing as we used the canteen whilst stock training.

On a visit on 25/3/69 to Croxley Tip it contained steam cranes C602, C605, C613, and flat wagons F313, F376, F385, F331, F325, F387.

I have a copy of an official drawing for the GP wagons and it is dated 1984. There appears to be some confusion over the name as it includes the words "wagon numbers F000 to F000 inclusive" although the noughts appear to have been partly snowpaked over! It is described as "30 TONNE GENERAL PUPOSE WAGON" and also "GP FLAT WAGON (1984) and the wagon drawing has an F000 snowpaked number on it. The drawing appears to be a metric version of the old "30 TON BOGIE FLAT WAGONS" with just different bogies, buffers and end details.
 

[roythebus]

I worked on LT in the early 1970s and it would appear Croxley tip fell into general disuse with the end of steam on the Met first time round. Most of the trains I saw going there were loco ash by then.

[D826]

I worked on LT in the early 1970s and it would appear Croxley tip fell into general disuse with the end of steam on the Met first time round. Most of the trains I saw going there were loco ash by then.

That dovetails with what my dad, Ray Wood,also known as Dinker, told me about his runs there from Neasden. He said ash and spent ballast.

 

Matt Wood

[The_Laird]

Hi.  I noticed my name being taken in vain earlier on in the thread. I am the individual who amended the Britain From Above view that included the former Croxley Gravel Pits/Croxley Tip Sidings.  I live locally to the site.  It is now known as 'Buddleia Walk'  by local dog walkers etc.

 

As I stated in the BFA site, this was formerly a gravel extraction site serviced by the Met Railway.  It probably dates from the 1920s when several other similar workings were in operation in the area (the various pits that now comprise the lakes of the Aquadrome), no doubt supplying the requirements of the massive Metroland expansion of the time. Gravel from these sites was certainly used in the construction of the British Empire Exhibition site at Wembley.  The Croxley Gravel Tip probably pre-dates the construction of the Watford Branch of the Met Railway and the sidings connection was formerly from the mainline in the vicinity of the electrical sub-station. The connection to the up line of the branch was made later and necessitated works trains running first to Watford (Met) before running round the locomotive and returning on the up line to the Croxley Tip access.  At an earlier stage, there had been a crossover to the down line, but this seems to have been removed at some time..

 

I believe that there was something of a hiatus between the closure of the gravel pits (probably pre WW2) and the acquisition of the land by London Transport in 1953. I do not know for certain whether a rail connection existed during the intervening period.  Prior to its acquisition by LT, the area was used for the storage of timber. There was also a concrete beam and flooring factory on the site (Siegwart's) and this seems to have been served by a spur coming off the gravel works sidings.

 

Further changes were made to the Watford South junction in the mid 1950s when the trackwork was realigned.

 

As has been stated, when the gravel workings became the tip sidings, the track layout was shortened and simplified and was probably relaid several times as new areas of the site were utilised. I believe that all kinds of waste was dumped at the site.  In the early 80s some of the rusty trackwork was still in situ, albeit much was heavily displaced. I can remember seeing several ceramic insulators lying around uncovered.

 

I believe that material from the demolition of the power station at Neasden, which started in about 1967, was deposited at the site. It has also been stated in the Village Green Status application that some of the spoil resulting from the 1975 Moorgate Tube Disaster found its way to the site. All in all it suggests that it might not be a great idea to go digging around in the area, as the site may well be the final resting place of asbestos and other nasties.  They were less punctilious about such things back then.

 

The tip was slowly run down as a working site during the 70s and seems to have been abandoned by the early 80s. The ground surface was graded in 1983 and it would be at this time that what little that remained of the trackwork was removed.

 

More recently the site has been the subject of some local controversy. Metronet wanted to locate a construction materials depot on the site to service the Metropolitan Line upgrade.  I think that this prompted local residents to apply for Village Green status with the county council. Their view being that London Transport/TfL had effectively abandoned the site, did not maintain any boundary fencing and that it had been adopted subsequently through custom and practice as a public amenity. This view was upheld, Village Green Status was allowed and the Metronet application was abandoned.

 

I have attached a Google Earth overlay of the trackplan that I made of the site while it was still a working gravel extraction site. I expect that in the same way as the later tip sidings, this layout altered periodically to suit the working requirements.

 

 

On a slightly different subject, I wonder if anyone is able to shed some light on what I believe to be a narrow gauge track to the south of the Croxley Hall Wood triangle junction on a 1938 view on Britain From Above?

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw059090?search=croxley&ref=19

 

Bit of a mystery to me.

[Engineer_London]

On the 1938 'Britain from Above' picture in the Croxley area - an interesting puzzle. 

 

A few months ago, there was an enquiry in the LURS Journal about the widening of the formation in that area, particularly the bridge over the Chess, nearer Rickmansworth.  I responded to the query after some searching of drawings.

 

Though I can't find my notes at the moment, my reading of the archive material led me to believe that the work on widening was started and well under way before the Second War.  So, it may be that the track in the picture has been laid in advance of the early stages of widening works, providing access for materials along a section of line where there isn't much road access.  Might be able to say a little more once my notes surface. 

 

Many thanks for unearthing the picture - contains useful detail.

[Pacific231G]

 

On a slightly different subject, I wonder if anyone is able to shed some light on what I believe to be a narrow gauge track to the south of the Croxley Hall Wood triangle junction on a 1938 view on Britain From Above?

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw059090?search=croxley&ref=19

 

Bit of a mystery to me.

Interesting. I've got the 1940 war revision OS 1 inch map for the area and it shows fairly clearly both the lines going onto Croxley Gravel Pits/Croxley Tip Sidings, though not with any detail, and the NG railway that supplied the Colne Valley waterworks/pumping station. It doesn't show anything of the NG railway alongside the Rickmansworth line which appears to be 2ft gauge or less therabouts and looks to be just on the LT side of the fence. From the lack of evidence in the OS maps, the very widely spaced sleepers and the generally not very well laid air to it I'd hazard a guess that it was a contractor's railway with hand propelled wagons and maybe involved in drainage works.

I rather liked the man with his whiteish dog seen in EPW059090 looking over the fence and in the next image EPW059091 turned to continue his walk.

[The_Laird]

I notice, also, in the first pic that the four car T Stock is travelling 'up' from Rickmansworth.  So, not on its normal route from Watford Met, the services to and from Rickmansworth at that time being locomotive hauled dreadnoughts with a loco changeover taking place at Ricky. I believe that there was once a short-lived two car T Stock shuttle service operating between Ricky and Watford using the Watford North curve utilising the bay platform at Rickmansworth.

 

Perhaps it was on its way 'out of service' from one of the stabling sidings at Rickmansworth, or maybe it was 'changing end' using the Watford North curve.  

[Lord of Narnia]

The Watford to Ricky shuttle from 1925-1933 was operated by shuttle cars singularly using saloon stock motor cars rebuilt with compartment bodies in 1910. I believe the service was abandoned in 1933.

[bécasse]

At various times there have been services to Watford via Rickmansworth, and also MU workings which terminated at Rickmansworth. It was only trains going beyond Rickmansworth, usually to Aylesbury but occasionally to Chesham, which were loco hauled.

 

I seem to remember that when Watford first opened there were some LNER loco-hauled trains to/from Marylebone but they didn't last long.

[The_Laird]

At various times there have been services to Watford via Rickmansworth, and also MU workings which terminated at Rickmansworth. It was only trains going beyond Rickmansworth, usually to Aylesbury but occasionally to Chesham, which were loco hauled.

 

I seem to remember that when Watford first opened there were some LNER loco-hauled trains to/from Marylebone but they didn't last long.

I think the same applied to the Chesham branch. The LNER had joint running rights with the Met on most routes north of Harrow as the result of a legacy joint agreement with the GCR. Not too sure about the Stanmore branch, but I think that the same rights existed here also, but were never exercised.  I believe that the LNER even met reluctantly a proportion of the construction costs of the Watford branch. However if it did not pay them to do so, then they would quite quickly abandon exercising their running rights.

[bécasse]

I have a vague recollection that there was even a LNER working (early morning?) from Chesham post-WWII which might have made it through into the early nationalisation period.

[Lord of Narnia]

Yes there certainly were trains to marylebone ftom Watford when first opened I believe to try and take traffic away from the LMS. It was quickly abandoned as mentioned. There were and still are early morning and late evening workings between Watford and Ricky for stabling purposes some in service some not.

 

As previously mentioned there were workings during the day using T stock. These were mostly on Sundays and involved a run from Baker Street to Watford, reversal to rickmansworth and then return south from there.

[Engineer_London]

Just to supplement the notes on electric stock to Rickmansworth with some rough information on electric stock workings for timetables from 1928 to 1932 - apologies that my era of study doesn't extend to having 1938 and LPTB timetable information to hand..

 

As well as the Watford-Rickmansworth shuttle [at times strengthened by an added Saloon Stock Driving Trailer], a variety of stock was scheduled to run direct Up from Rickmansworth over the main line side of the triangle that we saw in the aerial photograph, up to about seven moves per weekday.  Electric stock scheduled for these moves included:

 

Saloon [V] Stock - 7 cars

Bogie Stock [M] - 8 coaches

Until December 1932, W Stock - 8 vehicles, Saloon or MW Motors with Bogie Stock coaches

From 1930, MW [Westinghouse-braked, precursor of T Stock] Compartment stock - 7 coaches

From December 1932, MV [Vacuum-braked, precursor of T Stock] Compartment stock - 7 coaches

[Lord of Narnia]

Yes there is certainly photo evidence to suggest that these and other stocks used the line well into the 1930s. Infact, there was a unit of W stock on the Watford run until 1942! There was also the occasional appearance of the S train which was the 1919 hustle car conversions (motors by then converted to trailers) and the 2 1925 saloon stock motored predecessors of the T with MW equipment.

 

The 1950s saw school time services formed from P and F stock although we are drifting a little off topic!