Hornby's Best Ever Models

[robmcg]

Further to my obsession with the diecast Atholl R3819 for which I paid far too much in the heat of the rather restricted number available in the UK, and I presumed elsewhere, there are at least four more at two retailers offering them in NZ right now.

 

Acorn Models of Christchurch $499 or £250 

 

040 Trains N Models,  Invercargill   $562 or £280 approx

 

Again, no connection, but both are trusted retailers, I don't know if they offer international delivery but are competent and polite people in my experience having bought from them both. 

 

Here is mine, slightly edited with cylinder drains.

 

 

cheers

Edited November 10, 2020 by robmcg
clarification

[robmcg]

We live in hope.

 

If Tony wright is to be believed, this might well be Hornby's 'Best Ever'... 

 

A2/2 R3830 BR 60501 'Cock o' the North' does look rather good.

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by robmcg
typo

[Hroth]

12 hours ago, robmcg said:

We live in hope.

 

If Tony wright is to be believed, this might well be Hornby's 'Best Ever'... 

 

A2/2 R3830 BR 60501 'Cock o' the North' does look rather good.

 

 

You know, it looks better than the real thing.... 

 

[robmcg]

On 16/12/2020 at 22:29, Hroth said:

 

You know, it looks better than the real thing.... 

 

 

Which does beg the question, 'how bad were they really?'

 

They had great potential with large grates, 250lb boiler Kylchap chimneys, and so on, and it wasn't as if divided drive wasn't full of insuperable issues. Swindon and Crewe can attest.

 

Maybe LNER crew didn't like Thompson changing the regulator and cutoff controls away from Gresley style, apart from his general demeanour?

 

The models themselves look good, albeit paint and running samples only, and assembly is often a variable with the samples having a variety of common issues, cab droop, sloppy detail placement.  If the wheels and motion are as good as Tony suggests then we are halfway there... and his test run of his borrowed 60505 on Bytham looked excellent.

Edited December 17, 2020 by robmcg
typos, addition.

[The Johnster]

Interesting point; is a model that looks better than the prototype accurate?

 

Railwaymen in general, and loco crews in particular, were very small c conservative in their outlook and were often critical of new products.  To understand this, one has to engage with a culture that has long vanished from the railway but was still discernable in my days on the job in the 70s.  This is that there is very little top down supervision of drivers, firemen, or their techniques, and 'signing traction' was not a thing with steam locos.  All steam crews were expected to climb aboard locos they had never been aboard before and perhaps had never even heard of, and make a fist of working the duty to time.  But there was no formal training, you were simply thrown in at the deep end, so locos that required radically different driving techniques would incur criticism for not responding the way the crew expected. 

 

And, with steam on express passenger jobs, it was important for timekeeping that the job was done in a way that had previously proved successful.  Drivers expected the same results for regulator and reverser settings changed at specific locations as they'd had with the previous loco, and firemen were used to firing and injecting water into the boilers at specific places and times in the duty as well to anticipate this, having different routines for different drivers.  A new mate not worked with before was a steep learning curve for both men!

 

The Elephant in the room, or the cab, is that for most of the time most steam age drivers and fireman were basing their techniques on experience of what worked before, preferring not to change routines as this would risk running out of steam, losing time, stopping for a blow up, or, the ultimate disgrace, dropping a fusible plug.  A driver I worked with in the 70s was still being taken to task over dropping a plug 20 years before, on a Britannia on the down between Llantrisant and Llanharan.  During the same week, as a passed fireman, he put a 94xx into the river at Pengam and a Castie into the Morriston Road at Landore; those incidents were long forgotten but the dropped plug haunted him for the rest of his railway life...

 

Very few crews drove the locos in the most efficient and effective way possible because they had never been instructed in how to do this and were taught be the previous generation, who had never been taught how to do it properly either.  In France, loco crews were fully trained in driving and firing techniques as well as in the technical aspects of their locomotives, and better performances resulted overall.  Only two years ago, a friend who drives 152s and Pacers for Vieola, previously Arriva Trains Wales, after some 15 years experience, was given instruction on how to save fuel by better use of the controls, and told me he had learned a surprsing amount of technique he didn't previously know, and he'd been passed out by an inspector who also presumably didn't previously know them. 

 

So, looking at it from the locomen's pov in the late 40s when the Thompsons were introduced, these were top link men used to the quirks of Gresley locos being required to work ECML expresses with the poor coal that was all that the railway could get hold of in those austerity days.  When they drove the new locos in the same way as they had the Gresleys, and things wen wrong, understandably they blamed the new locos.  Railway culture with regard to timekeeping is that you book delays on your daily journal but will tend to blame signalmen or station staff rather than yourself or the fireman (unless you really don't like the fireman) when it comes to specifying the causes.  The usual thing was to lay as much blame off onto other departments as much as you could, after all they were doing the same to you, and designers of locos were not exempt from this general ar*e covering.  

 

To cover himself in anything approaching glory, a CME had to sign off on locos that were significantly better than his predecessors', and Gresley was a tough act to follow.  If you compare Collett, who followed Churchward on the GW, Churchward being revered as a demi-god, there was room for Collett to build locos that toed the party line but had bigger boilers and cylinders, thus could haul larger faster trains, or unaltered loads to existing timings with greater ease, than the previous mans' locos.  Thus it was generally agreed that Castles were better than Stars and Kings were better than Castles (and the the Civil Engineers were holding things back).  Thompson had no such advantage, and seems to have had an awkward sort of personality as well; poor so and so didn't have much of a chance really!  He made conventionally good locos (B1s, B2s, 01s), and was not alone in failing with a 2-6-2T; Fowler and Stanier had both signed off on hopless examples.  If you look at Thompson's contemporaries, Ivatt on the LMS was paying attention to ease of prep and disposal, which Thompson was also concerning himself with, Bullied on the Southern was being contraversial and divisive, and Hawksworth, another awkward character by all accounts, was failing to bring the GW into the post war era unless you count plate frames, which everybody else had been using for years.  Thompson and Bullied were probably best in the country at coaches.

[toboldlygo]

On 15/12/2020 at 21:13, robmcg said:

We live in hope.

 

If Tony wright is to be believed, this might well be Hornby's 'Best Ever'... 

 

A2/2 R3830 BR 60501 'Cock o' the North' does look rather good.

 

 

You'll return to the South dark side soon enough Rob - this is the Way  

[robmcg]

1 hour ago, toboldlygo said:

 

You'll return to the South dark side soon enough Rob - this is the Way  

 

Indeed, but on has to give credit where credit is due.  I wonder actually designed the LNER standard boilers?

[robmcg]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Interesting point; is a model that looks better than the prototype accurate?

 

Railwaymen in general, and loco crews in particular, were very small c conservative in their outlook and were often critical of new products.  To understand this, one has to engage with a culture that has long vanished from the railway but was still discernable in my days on the job in the 70s.  This is that there is very little top down supervision of drivers, firemen, or their techniques, and 'signing traction' was not a thing with steam locos.  All steam crews were expected to climb aboard locos they had never been aboard before and perhaps had never even heard of, and make a fist of working the duty to time.  But there was no formal training, you were simply thrown in at the deep end, so locos that required radically different driving techniques would incur criticism for not responding the way the crew expected. 

 

And, with steam on express passenger jobs, it was important for timekeeping that the job was done in a way that had previously proved successful.  Drivers expected the same results for regulator and reverser settings changed at specific locations as they'd had with the previous loco, and firemen were used to firing and injecting water into the boilers at specific places and times in the duty as well to anticipate this, having different routines for different drivers.  A new mate not worked with before was a steep learning curve for both men!

 

The Elephant in the room, or the cab, is that for most of the time most steam age drivers and fireman were basing their techniques on experience of what worked before, preferring not to change routines as this would risk running out of steam, losing time, stopping for a blow up, or, the ultimate disgrace, dropping a fusible plug.  A driver I worked with in the 70s was still being taken to task over dropping a plug 20 years before, on a Britannia on the down between Llantrisant and Llanharan.  During the same week, as a passed fireman, he put a 94xx into the river at Pengam and a Castie into the Morriston Road at Landore; those incidents were long forgotten but the dropped plug haunted him for the rest of his railway life...

 

Very few crews drove the locos in the most efficient and effective way possible because they had never been instructed in how to do this and were taught be the previous generation, who had never been taught how to do it properly either.  In France, loco crews were fully trained in driving and firing techniques as well as in the technical aspects of their locomotives, and better performances resulted overall.  Only two years ago, a friend who drives 152s and Pacers for Vieola, previously Arriva Trains Wales, after some 15 years experience, was given instruction on how to save fuel by better use of the controls, and told me he had learned a surprsing amount of technique he didn't previously know, and he'd been passed out by an inspector who also presumably didn't previously know them. 

 

So, looking at it from the locomen's pov in the late 40s when the Thompsons were introduced, these were top link men used to the quirks of Gresley locos being required to work ECML expresses with the poor coal that was all that the railway could get hold of in those austerity days.  When they drove the new locos in the same way as they had the Gresleys, and things wen wrong, understandably they blamed the new locos.  Railway culture with regard to timekeeping is that you book delays on your daily journal but will tend to blame signalmen or station staff rather than yourself or the fireman (unless you really don't like the fireman) when it comes to specifying the causes.  The usual thing was to lay as much blame off onto other departments as much as you could, after all they were doing the same to you, and designers of locos were not exempt from this general ar*e covering.  

 

To cover himself in anything approaching glory, a CME had to sign off on locos that were significantly better than his predecessors', and Gresley was a tough act to follow.  If you compare Collett, who followed Churchward on the GW, Churchward being revered as a demi-god, there was room for Collett to build locos that toed the party line but had bigger boilers and cylinders, thus could haul larger faster trains, or unaltered loads to existing timings with greater ease, than the previous mans' locos.  Thus it was generally agreed that Castles were better than Stars and Kings were better than Castles (and the the Civil Engineers were holding things back).  Thompson had no such advantage, and seems to have had an awkward sort of personality as well; poor so and so didn't have much of a chance really!  He made conventionally good locos (B1s, B2s, 01s), and was not alone in failing with a 2-6-2T; Fowler and Stanier had both signed off on hopless examples.  If you look at Thompson's contemporaries, Ivatt on the LMS was paying attention to ease of prep and disposal, which Thompson was also concerning himself with, Bullied on the Southern was being contraversial and divisive, and Hawksworth, another awkward character by all accounts, was failing to bring the GW into the post war era unless you count plate frames, which everybody else had been using for years.  Thompson and Bullied were probably best in the country at coaches.

 

Absolutely spot on, Johnster.  I grew up among steam men and understood their pride and skills well, as well as their variable temperaments.

 

Superbly written piece, your post. Thanks.

[atom3624]

Just received a new-tool R3857 6220 Coronation.

None of the slow-speed tension of the R3677 Hamilton I have - just seems the gears at one point might mesh a little tightly, so when the motor's on low speed - thus lower torque - it can slow a little at one stage of the revolution.

Hamilton also had a shorting out problem - was excessive solder around the plunger contacts on the locomotive.

 

Coronation is silky smooth right from the start, and no momentary slowing, not even slightly - just really smooth.

 

Only dislike is the blue is too matt for my liking.

Something of a high profile 'show' locomotive should have a better satin sheen to the paintwork.

 

Al.

[boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, robmcg said:

 

Absolutely spot on, Johnster.  I grew up among steam men and understood their pride and skills well, as well as their variable temperaments.

 

And of course NEVER called by name (apart from to their face) but always their nicknames, my Uncle’s was The Red Baron, because he was a very seriously dedicated union man and knew the rule book inside out, any instructions that didn’t comply on working from management were “shot down” with deadly accuracy and no more arguments, another Driver at the + was called Silent Rage........we’ll leave that one, never a popular driver with the firemen 

Edited December 19, 2020 by boxbrownie

[The Johnster]

Nicknames were fun; I was witness in the 70s at Canton to a rivalry between drivers Wild Bill Hickock and Peter Perfect, and who wouldn't pay to watch that?  One of my fellow guards was called Harpic, because he'd drive anyone clean around the bend, and another was Thrombosis, a bloody clot wandering around clogging up the system.  Overcoat Joe (his real name was Ron) was a driver who insisted, in any weather conditions, in driving his diesels like he had driven steam. window open and head out, clad in cap, goggles, scarf. and a massive overcoat even in the summer of 1976.  We also had Jimmy 'Orrible, Machine Gun Mike, and Tommy Horizontal (he liked to 'rest his eyes' at any opportunity).  I was 'The Professor'.

[robmcg]

In view of the die-cast models now on the horizon, I pre-empted the rush by buying a couple of die-cast B12s last week, no regrets.

 

61533 from Peters Spares £115   old stock 

 

photo from some old review, edited slightly by me.

 

 

and an LNER 8527   Hattons photo,  £135 s/h 

 

 

to go with the 8573 I already own, another magazine photo edited by me...

 

 

What lovely models!   

[toboldlygo]

10 hours ago, robmcg said:

In view of the die-cast models now on the horizon, I pre-empted the rush by buying a couple of die-cast B12s last week, no regrets.

 

61533 from Peters Spares £115   old stock 

 

photo from some old review, edited slightly by me.

 

 

and an LNER 8527   Hattons photo,  £135 s/h 

 

 

to go with the 8573 I already own, another magazine photo edited by me...

 

 

What lovely models!   

 

They are, but I can see a glut of Air-Smoothed Merchant Navies on the horizon for you, young man  

[atom3624]

I would propose the new 2007 Prince of Wales ... oh, sorry, still 2021 ...

 

I still think top 5 for the Class 56 - it does say 'best models', not just kettles.

 

Al.

[Isambard Smith]

A new toy arrived in the post today and its certainly the best Hornby model I own!

 

It is the centenary limited edition peckett w4 in photographic gray and I'm very impressed with its level of detail, the livery, and its performance. Cant get enough of watching it trundle around my dining table! 

 

[robmcg]

On 07/01/2021 at 02:18, toboldlygo said:

 

They are, but I can see a glut of Air-Smoothed Merchant Navies on the horizon for you, young man  

 

Sold out pre-orders for 35011 at Hornby already.   You have to be quick!

[toboldlygo]

2 hours ago, robmcg said:

 

Sold out pre-orders for 35011 at Hornby already.   You have to be quick!

 

There'll be more along no doubt  

[The Johnster]

On 07/01/2021 at 16:02, Isambard Smith said:

A new toy arrived in the post today and its certainly the best Hornby model I own!

 

It is the centenary limited edition peckett w4 in photographic gray and I'm very impressed with its level of detail, the livery, and its performance. Cant get enough of watching it trundle around my dining table! 

 

I have a Forest no.1 as the colliery loco, and completely understand your delight.  Honours for best Hornby I’ve ever owned go to the newest, a Large Prairie in unlined BR black unicycling lion renumbered as 4144, though; excellent detail, smooth runner, sliding cab roof vent, detail inside the bunker if you remove the plastic coal, and nothing’s fallen off yet, which is more than I can say for my 42xx...  

 

It was an impulse buy, as my intention was to carry on withy old Hornfix hybrid until the Dapol large prairie appeared so that I could compare them, but reports of poor gearing and jerky slow running on the Dap mogul, which has the mech that will be used on their prairie, plus a hefty discount from the Bure Valley Railway shop (highly recommended, excellent service, no connection happy customer), along with the continued non-appearance of a certain loco in a blue box, combined to persuade me to buy myself a christmas prezzy, with which I am highly pleased!

[toboldlygo]

For those Bulleid Nutters out there..

 

 

 

Another restoration project - a R2388 given a tender swap and carelessly renumbered and renamed to Biggin Hill by a halfwit cowboy on eBay, a client of mine brought it and I had to rework it for him.

[sandwich station]

4 hours ago, toboldlygo said:

For those Bulleid Nutters out there..

Another restoration project - a R2388 given a tender swap and carelessly renumbered and renamed to Biggin Hill by a halfwit cowboy on eBay, a client of mine brought it and I had to rework it for him.

 

For us non Bulleid Nutters, what is the difference between Biggin Hill and 41 Squadron? 

[toboldlygo]

1 hour ago, sandwich station said:

 

For us non Bulleid Nutters, what is the difference between Biggin Hill and 41 Squadron? 

 

Biggin Hill had an 8' 6" wide cab (Narrow Cab, Series I 34001-34070), 41 Squadron had a 9' wide cab (Wide Cab, Series II 34071-34110)

[gwrrob]

Talking of Biggin Hill and I have a rather nice photo of her, in early crest, at Newton Abbot. On an up stopper ,route familiarisation turn. One for the future perhaps.

[robmcg]

Moving onwards from Bulleid to the uplands of success and good fortune we inevitably come to that shining exemplar of wartime engineering, the Thompson A2/2...

 

here is a snapshot by Gordon S which was one of the first photos in RMweb of BR 60505 'Thane of Fife' in late BR guise, a really handsome engine.

 

I have just altered the picture a tiny tad...

 

What grace, balance, and perfect utilization of a 250lb boiler, 50 sq ft grate, double exhaust, and equal-length connecting rods.  Well,   almost. 

 

Hornby's model is superb in my opinion, I especially admire the front frame and wheels.

 

 

Thankyou Gordon S for the original photo.

[MikeParkin65]

33 minutes ago, robmcg said:

Moving onwards from Bulleid to the uplands of success and good fortune we inevitably come to that shining exemplar of wartime engineering, the Thompson A2/2...

 

here is a snapshot by Gordon S which was one of the first photos in RMweb of BR 60505 'Thane of Fife' in late BR guise, a really handsome engine.

 

I have just altered the picture a tiny tad...

 

What grace, balance, and perfect utilization of a 250lb boiler, 50 sq ft grate, double exhaust, and equal-length connecting rods.  Well,   almost. 

 

Hornby's model is superb in my opinion, I especially admire the front frame and wheels.

 

 

Thankyou Gordon S for the original photo.

Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder of course but for me the A3, A4 and P2 were all ‘handsome’. Whereas this is like an earlier take on ‘steam punk’; bashing all 3 with the ugly stick then joining the battered parts together lol

[robmcg]

4 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder of course but for me the A3, A4 and P2 were all ‘handsome’. Whereas this is like an earlier take on ‘steam punk’; bashing all 3 with the ugly stick then joining the battered parts together lol

 

I used to think that way too, I couldn't enjoy a model of a machine I thought was so flawed in design, and thus in looks, especially the over-long front end.

 

Equally I have read a fair bit about Thompson the man and he was not in my opinion a very likeable nor admirable person, in contrast to Gresley.  But the change to leadership was sudden in 1941 and Britain was at war, the P2s were a mess because of axles and other major issues, the V2s were ok excellent even, but had conjugated valve gear, so a powerful mixed traffic engine was a good idea...   worked for Bulleid!

 

The biggest problem was that for whatever reason the A2/2 was never 'sorted' in terms of ride at speed, and steam chest/frame flexing issues.

 

Wasn't Bill Hoole the driver who miraculously survived the 1947 Scottish crash which was attributed to poor track where it was at least partially due to poor engine design, with inadequate front bogie side control?