Cambrian loco livery

[Quarryscapes]

What is the definitive regarding this? I've seen snippets here and there but from photographic evidence there does seem to be a lot of variations! 

 

 

[MartinWales]

Ahhh! The invisible loco green debate?

[corneliuslundie]

Try Great Western Way (HMRS).

[Quarryscapes]

Ahhh! The invisible loco green debate?

 

The what debate?

[Quarryscapes]

This is what I have so far, see if it jogs anyone's memory! Just a quick flick through GWR Absorbed engines shows a few liveries:

 

Fig 120: 0-4-4T in Unlined Black lettered CAMBRIAN and numbered with cast brass numerals. 

 

Fig 121: 0-4-4T in 1915 Lining, CAMBRIAN lettering and cast brass numerals

 

Fig 123: 0-4-4T, Lined but No lettering. CAMRBRIAN RAILWAYS OSESTRY WORKS Oval plate with number on centre of tankside. Works plate on bunker where numerals are in previous pics. 

 

Fig 136+ 139: 4-4-oT (Metro tanks). What you might call the stereotypical Cambrian lining. Cambrian Railways lettering with plume of feathers. Cast brass numerals. 

 

Fig 137: Metro tank again, this time appears to be devoid of lining or lettering, cast brass numerals on bunker

 

Fig 143: 2-4-0. Full lining. No lettering. Oval plate for number on cabside, full Cambrian Railways garter on leading splasher. 

 

Fig 149: 2-4-0T MAGLONA, pre 1900. Lined out, named, Carries combined oval plate on rear 3rd tank sides. (Fig 151 the same)

 

Fig 150: Unlined, no lettering, Combined oval plate mounted on valance below cab.

 

 

So, that's 8 different varieties of livery so far. If I check my other Cambrian books I expect I could find more. I could surmise that the unlined and unlettered varieties are perhaps wartime expediencies, but I'm having trouble locating photos dated positively to confirm anything. 

 

The 1900s seem to have been fairly straightforward, with the 'typical' livery being fairly widespread. 

 

 

[Etched Pixels]

The economy change for coaches was 1909 - whether locomotives followed the same date I do not know.

[mike morley]

A brief aside.

 

My daughter used to work for the Trinity College of Music, which is located in the former Royal Naval College at Greenwich, which is a Grade 1 Listed Building.  The building was undergoing a refurbishment at the time and every stage of it had to be discussed and approved by a committee.  Her boss was one of those who was supposed to be on the committee but he preferred to spend his days on the golf course so assigned her the task of deputising for him.

She was, I gather, the only female on the committee, all the other members of which were old enough to be her grandfather.  A fair percentage of the committee had titles and all of them had salaries that were stratospheric compared to hers.

They were also the biggest bunch of boring old farts ever assembled in one place.

"They can spend two hours discussing what shade of black to paint the railings!"  She once complained to me through gritted teeth.  "Have you even heard of Invisible Green?"

"Ah!"  Said I.  "Can you get me a sample?"

[Penlan]

 A brief aside........  She once complained to me through gritted teeth.  "Have you even heard of Invisible Green?"

"Ah!"  Said I.  "Can you get me a sample?"

Can she do the LNWR's Goods 'Invisible Grey' too ?

.

Unfortunately the likes of C.C.Green and Mike Morton-Lloyd are no longer with us, they I'm sure would have had some knowledge of the colour(s).

 

Ooops, just spotted - NO, C.C.Green is not Cambrian Coach Green ...

[Frank Sharp]

This is what I have so far, see if it jogs anyone's memory! Just a quick flick through GWR Absorbed engines shows a few liveries:

 

Fig 120: 0-4-4T in Unlined Black lettered CAMBRIAN and numbered with cast brass numerals. 

 

Fig 121: 0-4-4T in 1915 Lining, CAMBRIAN lettering and cast brass numerals

 

Fig 123: 0-4-4T, Lined but No lettering. CAMRBRIAN RAILWAYS OSESTRY WORKS Oval plate with number on centre of tankside. Works plate on bunker where numerals are in previous pics. 

 

Fig 136+ 139: 4-4-oT (Metro tanks). What you might call the stereotypical Cambrian lining. Cambrian Railways lettering with plume of feathers. Cast brass numerals. 

 

Fig 137: Metro tank again, this time appears to be devoid of lining or lettering, cast brass numerals on bunker

 

Fig 143: 2-4-0. Full lining. No lettering. Oval plate for number on cabside, full Cambrian Railways garter on leading splasher. 

 

Fig 149: 2-4-0T MAGLONA, pre 1900. Lined out, named, Carries combined oval plate on rear 3rd tank sides. (Fig 151 the same)

 

Fig 150: Unlined, no lettering, Combined oval plate mounted on valance below cab.

 

 

So, that's 8 different varieties of livery so far. If I check my other Cambrian books I expect I could find more. I could surmise that the unlined and unlettered varieties are perhaps wartime expediencies, but I'm having trouble locating photos dated positively to confirm anything. 

 

The 1900s seem to have been fairly straightforward, with the 'typical' livery being fairly widespread. 

 

According to Russell the Cambrian Lining was Blue Grey edged with red. However I'm researching the livery initially  used on 'The Earl' and 'The Countess' on the Welshpool. The Beyer Peacock order book says 'the painting to be similar to that of the Cambrian engines, namely, black with yellow lines picked out in vermillion. Mr. Jones is to be advised before the engines are ready for painting, and he will send full details and a pattern panel.' No 4 with the o raised and a line under it to be painted on the buffer beam in 4 inch block letters.

 

It would be difficult to determine whether any lining was yellow or Grey Blue as orthochromatic film would see both about the same 'depth'. Looking at the pictures in Russell's book the blue grey shows quite clearly. On pictures I've seen of the Welshpool locomotives the lining is much harder to discern. IF and a big IF, the yellow part of the lining was chrome yellow, a redder shade than say lemon, orthochromatic film might not 'see' it well. It was mainly sensitive to blue so would see blue grey as a light shade.

 

I suspect I'll be damned whichever way I jump.

 

Frank

 

Oddly there seems to have been almost a mental block when photographing in monochrome to make any note of the actual colours.

[Quarryscapes]

A great shame the sample panel did not survive, or that no one made a note of it's appearance afterwards. Of course the contemporary L&B Cigarette cards showing Cambrian loco No. 94 could well be a good guide.

 

(http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ja013-100-Lambert-Butler-World-Locomotives-Series-of-50-1912-39/190938076121?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D35308%26meid%3Dc195e0bc8c6c46918adf4f509752156e%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D371493063871)

[Andrew Young]

The lining and lettering style was changed at some point. The earlier style being a red/yellow/red lining with 'Cambrian (feathers) Railways' lettering, the latter being a thicker lining with the centre colour being grey with the lettering 'Cambrian'. Not found yet in my Cambrian books as to when the change took place.

 

Andrew

[Quarryscapes]

The lining and lettering style was changed at some point. The earlier style being a red/yellow/red lining with 'Cambrian (feathers) Railways' lettering, the latter being a thicker lining with the centre colour being grey with the lettering 'Cambrian'. Not found yet in my Cambrian books as to when the change took place.

 

Andrew

 

1915, was far from universal though as you'll see from Post #5

[NCB]

A long while ago I visited the Penrhyn Castle railway museum, where they had a sizeable model of a Jones 4-4-0, built by the apprentices at Oswestry. I suspect the livery would be correct for when it was built, about 1904. It might still be there.

 

As far as I can gather from C C Green's books the lining under Aston was blue-grey edged red, with no company identification. When Dennis and Jones took over in 1899 the lining became middle chrome yellow edged red, and CAMBRIAN crest RAILWAYS appeared on tenders or tanks. Around 1915 it changed to broad French grey lined red, with CAMBRIAN on tender/tank in middle chrome yellow, although Green states that French grey was also tried out.  In Cambrian Railways album there are several post-WWI pics with ownership and sometimes lining not evident, but this might be a freak of photography.

 

On the subject of 'invisible green', there's a bit of a mystery with Precision Paints. A fair time ago when I cobbled together a few 6 wheel coaches out of Ratio 4-wheelers, they did a "Cambrian coach bronze green", which looked as I expected. However more recently they've done instead a Cambrian coach olive green, which is extremely dark; as far as I know the Cambrian didn't use this for coaches. But I have wondered if there's been a mix-up and in fact this was intended to be locomotive green.

 

Nigel

[Quarryscapes]

A long while ago I visited the Penrhyn Castle railway museum, where they had a sizeable model of a Jones 4-4-0, built by the apprentices at Oswestry. I suspect the livery would be correct for when it was built, about 1904. It might still be there.

 

As far as I can gather from C C Green's books the lining under Aston was blue-grey edged red, with no company identification. When Dennis and Jones took over in 1899 the lining became middle chrome yellow edged red, and CAMBRIAN crest RAILWAYS appeared on tenders or tanks. Around 1915 it changed to broad French grey lined red, with CAMBRIAN on tender/tank in middle chrome yellow, although Green states that French grey was also tried out.  In Cambrian Railways album there are several post-WWI pics with ownership and sometimes lining not evident, but this might be a freak of photography.

 

On the subject of 'invisible green', there's a bit of a mystery with Precision Paints. A fair time ago when I cobbled together a few 6 wheel coaches out of Ratio 4-wheelers, they did a "Cambrian coach bronze green", which looked as I expected. However more recently they've done instead a Cambrian coach olive green, which is extremely dark; as far as I know the Cambrian didn't use this for coaches. But I have wondered if there's been a mix-up and in fact this was intended to be locomotive green.

 

Nigel

 

 

One of these is Cambrian Coach, one is Sleeper Grime....

 

[NCB]

Alan

 

Managed to dig out my long unfinished Cambrian 6 wheel coach painted in Precision's one-time "Cambrian coach bronze green"; here's a pic:

 

Checked on Precision's web site; they're currently offering only "Cambrian coach olive", in 50ml tins, which is the extremely dark green I referred to. Not sure if I still have a tin of it or not.

 

Cheers

Nigel

[Quarryscapes]

Alan

 

Managed to dig out my long unfinished Cambrian 6 wheel coach painted in Precision's one-time "Cambrian coach bronze green"; here's a pic:

gH_0020.jpg

 

Checked on Precision's web site; they're currently offering only "Cambrian coach olive", in 50ml tins, which is the extremely dark green I referred to. Not sure if I still have a tin of it or not.

 

Cheers

Nigel

 

I have, it's the septic tank brown on the left in my pic! I'd rather use GWR loco green (pre 1928) or Revell Bronze green. I suspect the real shade was somewhere between the two when new. That said I think an end of life vehicle might work in precision's 'olive', although I'm going to have a very hard time not mixing some green in with it! 

[mike morley]

I also tried the Phoenix Precision and decided it was best described as Sludge Brown.  As an alternative I bought a tub of Revell Bronze Green but at the same time I also bought a pot of Tamiya XF-11 JN Green and ended up using that.  The Tamiya pot is far, far more user friendly (Opening the Revell "cube" without getting half the contents in your lap is quite a trick) and the quality of the paint is equally superior.  I'm not a fan of acrylic paint and usually avoid it like the plague, but Tamiya acrylic is a joy to use.

[NCB]

The mystery deepens! The "Cambrian coach olive" I had was definitely not "sludge brown". It was an extremely deep green and, as I said, could probably be used for locomotives. I bought it when the previous owner of Precision was selling off some items as end of line, not long before selling the business, so I was a bit surprised to find it still on the lists. The previous "Cambrian coach bronze green" was a decent green with just a hint of brown, a slightly darker green than it shows in my snap above.

[mike morley]

There is another thread I cannot find going on somewhere at the moment where the lack of accuracy with Phoenix paints is mentioned.

As well as the sludgy Cambrian "green", I've had what was supposed to be Midland freight light grey but was more like Midland "Smudge" dark grey and GWR freight grey which was almost black. I have also heard of what was supposed to be BR carriage maroon that could have been used as CIE carriage orange!

 

I suspect that the clue to the accuracy of your tin of Cambrian Carriage green is that it came from the original owner, rather than the current one.

[mountaingoat]

The mystery deepens! The "Cambrian coach olive" I had was definitely not "sludge brown". It was an extremely deep green and, as I said, could probably be used for locomotives. I bought it when the previous owner of Precision was selling off some items as end of line, not long before selling the business, so I was a bit surprised to find it still on the lists. The previous "Cambrian coach bronze green" was a decent green with just a hint of brown, a slightly darker green than it shows in my snap above.

 

I think that for once we have a firm reference.

 

Amgueddfa Cymru – National Museum Wales, have a restored Cambrian carriage, I believe at their base at Nantgarw, which was originally at the Industrial Museum in Cardiff Bay.

 

The late Mike Lloyd had an original Cambrian carriage door panel, (from a first class coach I believe) and he worked with the Museum on the restoration. The green on the lower panels of the restored carriage was matched to Mike's door, and I don't think we are ever going to get any closer.

 

I visited Mike several times before his untimely death, but don't remember the door being at his home, so I wonder if the door was used by the Museum in the restoration.

 

I am certain that the Museum will accept visitors at Nantgarw by appointment (it is not open to the public), so if anyone wants to get a true Cambrian cariage colour, that's where to go.

 

I am meeting 'The Oracle' tomorrow at the rugby, so will ask if he has any more information

[corneliuslundie]

It is very much a secondary source, and printed rather than with actual ;paint samples, but the Cambrian Bronze Green sample on the second edition of Great Western Way is definitely a dark green, nothing like sludge. That section of the book was prepared by Glyn Williams, a name I don't know.

Jonathan

[Penlan]

I am meeting 'The Oracle' tomorrow at the rugby, so will ask if he has any more information

If this was the Iconic Oracle, then he will have advised you re. the panel and the colour,

The Icon's Cambrian Coaches are as close as you can get to a true Cambrian Coach colour.

Of course one always has to remember, scale, we are, mostly, at 1:76. 

Green at 1:1 can look a bit different at 1:76, even with the same primer and varnish.

[NCB]

Who's "the Oracle"? Sounds like he has useful information.

 

There's a pic of the restored coach at 

http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/articles/2007-07-04/A-new-lease-of-life-for-Cambrian-Railways-Coach-No238/

 

The green does look very dark, but that may be the pic. Probably is, because the green on the upper moldings looks quite different.

 

Nigel

[Quarryscapes]

Who's "the Oracle"? Sounds like he has useful information.

 

There's a pic of the restored coach at 

http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/articles/2007-07-04/A-new-lease-of-life-for-Cambrian-Railways-Coach-No238/

 

The green does look very dark, but that may be the pic. Probably is, because the green on the upper moldings looks quite different.

 

Nigel

 

Yes it's a terrible pic for judging colour, lit by very harsh golden hour sun with massive shadows cast over it. The bits in sun will look too yellow and the shadow bits too blue.