Train spotting at Finsbury Square

[31A]

Hi Peter, thanks for asking!

 

Platform 1 is for arrivals only; trains which arrive there have their loco released by the passenger pilot drawing the coaches back into the headshunt.  It then propels them to either Platforms 2 or 3 (if they are to depart soon) or into the Middle Road if they are to be stabled in the station for a while.

 

Arrivals can of course run directly into Platforms 2 or 3, and suburban trains usually do this (their trains, and locos, are usually shorter than main line trains), and another suburban loco then runs from the Loco Spur onto the rear of the train.  The train departs, followed by the released loco which runs into the Loco Spur to await its next working.

 

An arriving goods train runs into Platform 3, then the train engine propels the train back into the line shown as a dead end on this diagram (but now the Down Slow - see earlier) and uncouples.  Normally the goods pilot will have already made up the outgoing goods train and drawn it into Platform 4 - the goods pilot is now trapped at the buffers, and the train engine runs forward into Platform 4, couples to the outgoing wagons and sets off via the Down Main.  The goods pilot is now released, runs forward from Platform 4 onto the wagons which have been left on the Down Slow and shunts them into the two sidings at the top of the diagram.

 

It is possible to do all this without the use of a pilot, but it makes shunting very interesting and protracted, and involves using the crossover at the buffer stops end of 3 and 4 for the goods engine to run round the outward wagons.  The distance between the points and the buffers on 3 being only long enough for a tank engine or small diesel (Bo-Bos just fit).  The position of the crossover, and length of platform 3, was originally fixed as just long enough for an N2 to run round a Quad Art set, or 5 x BR non gangwayed coaches.

 

Hope this helps, and thanks to everyone else for the kind comments!

 

[CUTLER2579]

Hello 31A,

Pete's excellent question and your answer have shown the true potential of your layout, so I am even more impressed. I am building a similar arrangement in "O" Gauge,(meant to represent an East Coast seaside terminus), but must confess if I was just starting I would be cheating and using your trackplan with it's potential for tremendous operation. However to start again would probably mean it would never get completed as age creeps on, so Hey Ho as they say.

A final question,did you design the trackplan yourself as I imagine or did you crib it from somewhere.

Regards,Cutler. (Del)

 

PS. only realised yesterday that my good friend Ben Jones has left "Model Rail".

Edited March 13, 2014 by CUTLER2579

[trisonic]

Ben is now editor of BRM. Thread on his appointment somewhere on here with himself chipping in.

 

Best, Pete.

[CUTLER2579]

Thanks for that Pete, good when I have to rely on compatriots  3000 miles away to update me on what is happening 18 miles away in Bourne.    :laugh:

[31A]

Hi Del, and others - apologies, I haven't been able to get on here for a few days.

 

Yes, the layout plan was 'all my own work'.  I had 'Minories' in mind when I started, but when I realised how much layout I could fit into a baseboard 2 feet wide, it just grew from there.  I think I had in mind a station like Farringdon, but a terminus.  Originally I just envisaged it as being for local suburban traffic but then realised platforms 1 and 2 could handle 6-coach rakes of main line stock.  Well, the LNW ran a Birmingham-Broad Street service at one time, and I believe there were also Cambridge-Broad Street trains sometimes, so why not!

 

At first, I was disappointed that I couldn't arrange access to / from all platforms in either direction, but in fact it makes operation more interesting, and I believe that situation was not unknown in reality, at least in the days of semaphore signalling and loco hauled trains.  There's no turntable, so main line locos have to run tender-first to and from an off stage loco depot for turning and servicing.  When I work out what's going to happen in the rest of the room, there may be room for a turntable and small loco yard 'round the corner'.

 

Prior to a house move, the layout was slightly longer, and there was a third siding in the goods yard, that followed the running lines round the curve.  When the layout was shortened at the right hand end, the running lines had to be curved more sharply, and there wasn't room for the third siding any longer which is a pity as it restricts goods train operations slightly.

 

Anyway, in due course I'll try and photograph some more of the trains that appear at 'The Square' and post them up as soon as possible.

[Doughnut]

Not my era, but I could look at these pics all day. Work of art !

 

Dave

[jwealleans]

Pleased to see properly chained containers in evidence, Steve.  It makes such a difference.

 

Does the Continental traffic still run into FS?

[Pacific231G]

I've only just found your thread but I'm really impressed Steve.

This really captures the atmosphere of a London terminus I'd somehow overlooked and had no idea there'd been a third terminus so close to Liverpool and Broad Street. Still, I've yet to discover the real location of the GN's  Minories terminus and, even though I've seen photos of it, I'm not convinced that Holborn Viaduct terminus ever existed . In fact I'm beginning to think that London's redevelopment has now become so extreme that it's creating tears in the fabric of reality.

 

The pictures and plan are excellent and the layout looks like the culmination of years of work but I do have a few queries.

What is the overall length of the layout and the longest platforms at Finsbury Square and how sharp is the curve to the fiddle yard?

What trackwork are you using with  what nominal point radii?

Is there are a main concourse beyond the buffers or is the only entrance the one from the bridge?

Is the layout purely a home one or have you built it for portability?

Finally, what sort of fiddle yard are you using?

 

Thanks for posting such an inspiring layout.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Pacific231G

[31A]

I've only just found your thread but I'm really impressed Steve.

This really captures the atmosphere of a London terminus I'd somehow overlooked and had no idea there'd been a third terminus so close to Liverpool and Broad Street. Still, I've yet to discover the real location of the GN's  Minories terminus and, even though I've seen photos of it, I'm not convinced that Holborn Viaduct terminus ever existed . In fact I'm beginning to think that London's redevelopment has now become so extreme that it's creating tears in the fabric of reality.

 

The pictures and plan are excellent and the layout looks like the culmination of years of work but I do have a few queries.

What is the overall length of the layout and the longest platforms at Finsbury Square and how sharp is the curve to the fiddle yard?

What trackwork are you using with  what nominal point radii?

Is there are a main concourse beyond the buffers or is the only entrance the one from the bridge?

Is the layout purely a home one or have you built it for portability?

Finally, what sort of fiddle yard are you using?

 

Thanks for posting such an inspiring layout.

Hi, thanks for the kind comments!

 

Originally, I ran the layout with 1930s-period LNER stock, and in my version of history, the line was severely damaged in the Blitz and didn't re-open after WW2.  I suppose having moved on to 'transition period' rolling stock, I'd better think of another story - how about it  was closed by Beeching (at the time that Broad St. was initially threatened with closure) and is now beneath a 1980s Broadgate style office development?

 

The layout as it now exists is 12ft 4ins long, by 2ft wide.  The longest platform (platform 1) can hold a train of 6 Mk1s, with a main line loco at either end.  Platform 2 can just hold 6 Mk1s with a loco on the front, and 3 and 4 are long enough for 5 x 57ft coaches with a loco at either end, or a 6-car set of mixed 57ft and 51ft coaches at a pinch.  The curve out to the fiddle yard has a tightest radius of 3ft; originally it was greater and when the layout had to be shortened, I initially thought I couldn't get all four roads round the curve, which is why the Down Slow is drawn as a dead end on the plan I posted earlier.  With some trial and error however, I found all four roads would go round without going below 3ft radius, after all.  The fiddle yard is very temporary as I intend eventually to extend the layout further round the room.  For the moment, it has 11 roads on a baseboard 2ft wide; each is accessible for both arrivals and departures, and ends in approximately 1ft length of permanently 'dead' track, so that any train driven in stops automatically (DMUs have to have the power car at the north end).  The track is Peco Streamline Code 75 throughout, with medium radius points - the sharpest curves are the curves through the double or single slips.  When I started, live frog slips weren't available so I used dead frog ones, which has always been a potential source of unreliability and I make sure locos pick up off as many wheels as possible.  It does however simplify the wiring!

 

The station building is as shown in one of the earlier pictures, on the road bridge across the platforms.  I did mock it up with the building above the buffer stops ends of the platforms, but that exaggerated the shortness of the platforms, whereas the arrangement I finally chose actually tends to disguise the length of the platforms.  It also means that the frontage of the station building is visible, which wouldn't have been the case if it had been above the buffer stops.

 

The layout isn't built for portability in the sense that it can be exhibited, although it has survived a house move - reconnecting the wiring took longer than most exhibitions last, however!

[31A]

Pleased to see properly chained containers in evidence, Steve.  It makes such a difference.

 

Does the Continental traffic still run into FS?

Thanks, Jonathan!  I agree, containers do look better chained to their wagons, but it's quite fiddly to achieve.  I've got a couple of ordinary 'red' A Types to do next, and as you may be able to see in one of the pics, the B Types aren't chained down yet - less obvious with those, but they're on the 'to do' list.  Continental wagons are still on the 'to do lit' as well (it's a long list!).

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Apart from the tell-tale signs on the pointwork, I'd never had guessed the track was Peco Code 75, so well done for disguising it so well. Is the track laid "as is", or did you cut the sleepers individually to slightly reduce the oversleepered look of the originals?

[Pacific231G]

Hi, thanks for the kind comments!

 

Originally, I ran the layout with 1930s-period LNER stock, and in my version of history, the line was severely damaged in the Blitz and didn't re-open after WW2.  I suppose having moved on to 'transition period' rolling stock, I'd better think of another story - how about it  was closed by Beeching (at the time that Broad St. was initially threatened with closure) and is now beneath a 1980s Broadgate style office development?

 

The layout as it now exists is 12ft 4ins long, by 2ft wide.  The longest platform (platform 1) can hold a train of 6 Mk1s, with a main line loco at either end.  Platform 2 can just hold 6 Mk1s with a loco on the front, and 3 and 4 are long enough for 5 x 57ft coaches with a loco at either end, or a 6-car set of mixed 57ft and 51ft coaches at a pinch.  The curve out to the fiddle yard has a tightest radius of 3ft; originally it was greater and when the layout had to be shortened, I initially thought I couldn't get all four roads round the curve, which is why the Down Slow is drawn as a dead end on the plan I posted earlier.  With some trial and error however, I found all four roads would go round without going below 3ft radius, after all.  The fiddle yard is very temporary as I intend eventually to extend the layout further round the room.  For the moment, it has 11 roads on a baseboard 2ft wide; each is accessible for both arrivals and departures, and ends in approximately 1ft length of permanently 'dead' track, so that any train driven in stops automatically (DMUs have to have the power car at the north end).  The track is Peco Streamline Code 75 throughout, with medium radius points - the sharpest curves are the curves through the double or single slips.  When I started, live frog slips weren't available so I used dead frog ones, which has always been a potential source of unreliability and I make sure locos pick up off as many wheels as possible.  It does however simplify the wiring!

 

The station building is as shown in one of the earlier pictures, on the road bridge across the platforms.  I did mock it up with the building above the buffer stops ends of the platforms, but that exaggerated the shortness of the platforms, whereas the arrangement I finally chose actually tends to disguise the length of the platforms.  It also means that the frontage of the station building is visible, which wouldn't have been the case if it had been above the buffer stops.

 

The layout isn't built for portability in the sense that it can be exhibited, although it has survived a house move - reconnecting the wiring took longer than most exhibitions last, however!

Thanks Steve.

For some reason I was sure the track was SMP or homebuilt but looking again I can now see it's origin but it looks fine so well integrated. 

 

I find the Beeching or even a much later rationalisation closure entirely credible for Finsbury Square. Holborn Viaduct (cl.1990) and Broad Street (cl.1986)are both good (or rather bad!) examples of London termini disappearing completely without trace which is something you rarely see outside the City. Elsewhere there's usually something left behind. It's only fourteen years since Holborn Viaduct closed but, though I visit the area fairly often, simply can't visualise the station nor its bridge across Ludgate Hill even though I must have seen both many times. I suspect most people working in the area have simply forgotten it ever existed. 

[corneliuslundie]

I have just discovered this thread and did a double take! Back in a previous existence I was a member of the former Welwyn Garden City & District MRC and we actually started a layout called - wait for it - Finsbury Square. The same scenario as yours though with the skills level of those building it it would never have been as good as your layout. We too intended it only for suburban traffic and I eventually sold one complete and one part built quad art set plus an N2. The backscene was to be based on the warehouse at Farringdon. We were constrained as it had to be portable for exhibiting, so boards were only about 18 inches wide, giving three platforms and there were no goods facilities. We had some pretty complex pointwork in the station throat to give access to the platforms, though I refused to try a double slip. It never got to the scenic stage before the club closed down.

 

Needless to say, I really love your rendering of the subject. 

 

Jonathan David

[31A]

Apart from the tell-tale signs on the pointwork, I'd never had guessed the track was Peco Code 75, so well done for disguising it so well. Is the track laid "as is", or did you cut the sleepers individually to slightly reduce the oversleepered look of the originals?

Thanks Peter; just laid 'as is'.  I did cut the 'knobs' off the point tie bars to make the trackwork look slightly less obviously 'Peco', and later wished I'd shortened the long timbers under the points which are designed to carry point motors, but didn't think of that until after I'd ballasted it!

[31A]

I have just discovered this thread and did a double take! Back in a previous existence I was a member of the former Welwyn Garden City & District MRC and we actually started a layout called - wait for it - Finsbury Square. The same scenario as yours though with the skills level of those building it it would never have been as good as your layout. We too intended it only for suburban traffic and I eventually sold one complete and one part built quad art set plus an N2. The backscene was to be based on the warehouse at Farringdon. We were constrained as it had to be portable for exhibiting, so boards were only about 18 inches wide, giving three platforms and there were no goods facilities. We had some pretty complex pointwork in the station throat to give access to the platforms, though I refused to try a double slip. It never got to the scenic stage before the club closed down.

 

Needless to say, I really love your rendering of the subject. 

 

Jonathan David

Thanks Jonathan, what a remarkable coincidence - great minds, etc!

 

I didn't realise the WGC club had folded; many years ago I visited their exhibitions on a semi regular basis and was quite impressed by the standards of modelling.

[31A]

Here's a few more pictures to be going on with.  Firstly, not a view a train spotter would enjoy - a roofer, maybe!  Looking down from the roof of the station building towards the buffer stops; this is included warts, door knobs and all to show what this end of the layout looks like, and one of the reasons why it isn't ready to go into a magazine yet!  I was hoping to avoid using a backscene as the perspectives can look strange from different angles when urban scenes are involved and was intending to use low relief buildings instead, but this end really needs a backscene of some sort above the retaining wall.  Also some poster hoardings on the retaining wall itself.

 

 

Next, the view a train spotter could enjoy if he arrives by train, in the front compartment of a DMU running into platform 1. 

 

 

Looking back from platform 1 at the parcels train seen in the previous shot which has arrived in platform 2 behind 67772, and also showing a bit more of the station buildings. The wooden buildings on the island platform are from Parkside's 'Grand Junction' mouldings for LNW station buildings, but this shot was taken from an unusual angle and from most viewing positions they are more or less invisible, anyway. A bit of a blurred picture for some reason; it has something of the 'Box Brownie' about it (although in colour)!  I've edited out the wallpaper in this and the next shots, not as expertly as some people would have done.

 

 

Across on platform 3, a suburban train has just arrived behind an N2.  This picture gives the lie to the Peco track, and another reason for not publishing - no ballast on these lines yet!  Also, some more canopy (and possibly a small building) to add on platform 4, to the left.  For now, it gives an idea of how the platform canopies have been cobbled up from bits of Airfix (Dapol) kits.  The footbridge is a bit too clean, too.

 

 

Back at the 'country' end, two more 'Big Mets' prepare to set off for the Northern Heights.  One day I might get around to some destination boards for them.  69531 on the left is one of the very earliest Mainline versions of this model, with a fair amount of added detail and running on a Comet chassis - I never had any Mainline ones which would run at all well!  69535 next door is a more recent Hornby production, with less added detail and a reasonable runner after one or two tweaks.

 

 

[bobster]

Great pics - This layout really brings back memories of my train spotting days - First class.

[Flying Pig]

Your pictures of the dead end give the perfect impression of a railway that was meant to be extended to somewhere impossible like Basingstoke or Lille before the money ran out (which would certainly explain the placing of the station building).  The platform level shot looks quite convincing as it is, with the end wall against a blank sky, but I can understand the need for more when viewed from rooftop (or modeller) height.  Perhaps the soulless rear of a commercial premises set on girders over the last inch or two of track, a cut-and-cover over a line that never was?

 

BTW, I think there are threads somewhere in the aether covering the construction of the station building and the low relief structures along the rear of the layout which would be well worth revisiting.

[31A]

Your pictures of the dead end give the perfect impression of a railway that was meant to be extended to somewhere impossible like Basingstoke or Lille before the money ran out (which would certainly explain the placing of the station building).  The platform level shot looks quite convincing as it is, with the end wall against a blank sky, but I can understand the need for more when viewed from rooftop (or modeller) height.  Perhaps the soulless rear of a commercial premises set on girders over the last inch or two of track, a cut-and-cover over a line that never was?

 

BTW, I think there are threads somewhere in the aether covering the construction of the station building and the low relief structures along the rear of the layout which would be well worth revisiting.

That's an excellent idea, actually - I'll consider how it might be done.  Platform lengths are at a premium, and you need to be able to reach between locos and coaches to uncouple, but as long as the building didn't overhang the ends of the track by more than a tank engine's length, that would work very well.

 

Most of the low relief buildings you can see along the back are American kits from DPM, with the exception of the nondescript ecclesiastical building which is an Artitec resin casting, and the red-tiled Tube station which is scratch built.  Further down towards the goods warehouse, the row of Georgian terraced houses is made up of resin castings supplied by one of our fellow forum members, and is in need of finishing - a solution to the windows has so far eluded me (another reason not to go into print just yet)!  The main station building is made up of two Kibri kits (no. 9354) combined, with a more British looking roof and chimneys from Wills materials.

[trisonic]

Basingstoke?

 

Interesting you should mention that, Simon.

 

Since I've been living over here in the 'States I have noted that a service from Shenfield to Basingstoke started and then ended before I'd had a  chance to find out why? Or in detail which route it took......

I'd still like to know.

 

For people that don't know Shenfield is at the junction where the Southend lines branch off the old GER mainline.

 

Best, Pete.

[Del]

Not to Shenfield, but Norwich! It was called 'London Crosslink' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Crosslink

[Flying Pig]

...as long as the building didn't overhang the ends of the track by more than a tank engine's length, that would work very well.

 

I was only thinking of a few inches - say half the length of an N2 or less - to make a gloomy hole, without hiding the end wall completely so it's still obvious that the line terminates. 

 

Found a thread on Finsbury Terrace on the old forum - here.  Sadly the rest is lost in the RMweb palaeolithic.

[31A]

I was only thinking of a few inches - say half the length of an N2 or less - to make a gloomy hole, without hiding the end wall completely so it's still obvious that the line terminates. 

 

Found a thread on Finsbury Terrace on the old forum - here.  Sadly the rest is lost in the RMweb palaeolithic.

That's scary - how long ago that was, and the Terrace is still not finished!  I got stalled at the windows stage; I did get a quote for some bespoke laser cut window frames, but it seemed quite expensive, although there are quite a lot of windows!  Sensibly, being at the back of the layout, I need to get on with these houses before I can move on to working signals which would be vulnerable if I had to keep reaching across them to finish the scenery behind.

 

Yes, the idea of overhanging buildings across the platforms ends appeals more as I think about it.  I was just looking at 'Glory Days-Metropolitan Railway' and on the cover there's a nice picture of a Met electric loco arriving at Baker Street beneath just such a building.  It'd be quite pretty simple to do, just some brick embossed plastikard and some window frames (no need for them to be bespoke!).

[trisonic]

Not to Shenfield, but Norwich! It was called 'London Crosslink' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Crosslink

Thanks! Still doesn't make much sense to me. Why Basinstoke? Why stop at Ingatestone but not Shenfield (for the Southend services).

 

Many thanks for clarifying. Pete.

[Classsix T]

What a smashing layout.

The plethora of models now available suitable for late '50s GE/GN running is one of the reasons I have started a layout of this time period. Yours certainly shows them off at their best.

The correct arrangement of headcode lamps intrigues me, are they repositioned for each journey, if so how do you go about this?

 

C6T.