Old Tram Depots still in existence

[RichardT]

30 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Sorry I'm a bit late with this, I don't look at this part of the forum very often!

 

I took these pictures of the site of the York trolley bus depot in February 2017, just after it had been demolished.  As you can see, it did have tramway rails in it, although I have been told by those who know that they were never connected to the tramway system and their purpose seems to have been a bit of a mystery!  The tram lines did turn from Piccadilly into Merchantgate at the junction which was behind me when I took the pictures.

 

 

 

The site is now occupied by this:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.9571177,-1.078248,3a,75y,90h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdiHudSbrkbUhTZYDPDTtFw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The 1920 plan of the shed I came across when working in the City archives has it described as a car shed, with tracks linking to the tramway tracks in Piccadilly/Merchantgate.  The track in your picture clearly corresponds:

 

RichardT

[31A]

1 minute ago, RichardT said:

 

The 1920 plan of the shed I came across when working in the City archives has it described as a car shed, with tracks linking to the tramway tracks in Piccadilly/Merchantgate.  The track in your picture clearly corresponds:

 

RichardT

 

That's interesting, Richard.  It would seem logical that they would be connected as per that plan, but the person who told me about it was quite sure they weren't!

 

Like a lot of drawings in archives, the description starts with 'Proposed' which doesn't necessarily mean it was actually carried out!

 

 

[RichardT]

18 minutes ago, 31A said:

Like a lot of drawings in archives, the description starts with 'Proposed' which doesn't necessarily mean it was actually carried out!

Absolutely, and like you I was always told that the tracks weren't actually laid or connected.  But seeing your 2017 photo showing that at least two of the tracks inside the shed were actually laid reminded me about the plan.  Connecting them up to the existing street tracks as per plan would have required quite a bit of road works: but as the York Trams weren't abandoned until 1935 there was plenty of time in which this could have been done.  You have to wonder, what would be the point of laying tracks in the depot without a connection? 

 

Frustratingly, the photo in Barry Marsden's Middleton Press book on the York Tramways* that shows the tracks in Merchantgate is centred on the Red Lion pub.  The site of the car shed and the putative junction is just off the right-hand edge of the image! 

 

The map in that same book calls the site "Later TB depot", and the only depot photo is of Fulford Cross.  Always gaps in the historical record when you don't want them, eh?

 

RichardT

 

* "York Tramways and Trolleybuses" by Barry M Marsden, Middleton Press 2006, ISBN 1 904474 82 9

Edited December 20, 2022 by RichardT
Breaking up the text a bit. Adding bibliographcal details.

[Ramrig]

If you look at the plan it shows three tracks into the proposed shed. Here is a screen shot from Google maps from 2015 when the building was still standing and it clearly only has two openings for tram cars. Did the other go around the back?

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, Ramrig said:

Did the other go around the back?

If you look at the plan it's the the red chain-dotted line that indicates the footprint of the proposed shed building. The larger brown and orange shaded outlines indicates the plots of land that were to be acquired by the city to make up the whole shed site, including the open hard standing in front of the shed. 

 

You can see that the point dividing the rear two tracks is located under/just inside what would be the rear arched opening.

 

RichardT

[45655]

11 hours ago, 31A said:

I took these pictures of the site of the York trolley bus depot in February 2017, just after it had been demolished.  As you can see, it did have tramway rails in it, although I have been told by those who know that they were never connected to the tramway system and their purpose seems to have been a bit of a mystery!  The tram lines did turn from Piccadilly into Merchantgate at the junction which was behind me when I took the pictures.

Thanks very much for showing us these.  I confess I didn't know about the tram track.  Perhaps they just intended it as an outstation for storing trams?

 

I'm glad I knew the city when a lot of old industrial buildings like these were still around.

 

Keith

Alton.

[Bomp]

13 hours ago, melmerby said:

Nice.

It must've been a replacement depot as this 1898 map shows the original:

https://www.arcgis.com/apps/mapviewer/index.html?layers=7e9e6182550149f7a8a1479e06b594b7

The Martello Tower and the small hill, Hougue a la Perre as in the name of the battery opposite, were demolished and flattened to make space for the depot.  There is now a lane alongside called First Tower Lane, named, as so often happens with eg housing developments, after what used to be there.  

 

Much of the seafront along there has changed beyond recognition in the 20 years I’ve lived here, the more so since the map.  Thanks for finding that, I’ll be looking at it in some detail, perhaps follow the tram route and see what else I can find.  

[melmerby]

11 hours ago, RichardT said:

Absolutely, and like you I was always told that the tracks weren't actually laid or connected.  But seeing your 2017 photo showing that at least two of the tracks inside the shed were actually laid reminded me about the plan.  Connecting them up to the existing street tracks as per plan would have required quite a bit of road works: but as the York Trams weren't abandoned until 1935 there was plenty of time in which this could have been done.  You have to wonder, what would be the point of laying tracks in the depot without a connection? 

 

Frustratingly, the photo in Barry Marsden's Middleton Press book on the York Tramways* that shows the tracks in Merchantgate is centred on the Red Lion pub.  The site of the car shed and the putative junction is just off the right-hand edge of the image! 

 

The map in that same book calls the site "Later TB depot", and the only depot photo is of Fulford Cross.  Always gaps in the historical record when you don't want them, eh?

 

RichardT

 

* "York Tramways and Trolleybuses" by Barry M Marsden, Middleton Press 2006, ISBN 1 904474 82 9

The 1926 revision 25" map does not show the depot being part of the tram network, the next one on the NLS shows that the trams had be abandoned as no track is shown.

[45655]

12 hours ago, Ramrig said:

Did the other go around the back?

Aren't we seeing the Dennis Street end here?  The entrance for trams was via the very narrow exit (strictly one track) on the corner of Piccadilly and Merchantgate. 

 

Although the layout shows a dead end for trams I understand that the trolleybuses ran in this end and out the other as part of the terminal loop.

 

Thanks RichardT for showing us the plan.  Fascinating!

 

Keith

Alton.

[PhilJ W]

The trolleybuses accessed the depot using a skate on the tram track.              

[Ramrig]

32 minutes ago, 45655 said:

Aren't we seeing the Dennis Street end here?  The entrance for trams was via the very narrow exit (strictly one track) on the corner of Piccadilly and Merchantgate. 

 

Although the layout shows a dead end for trams I understand that the trolleybuses ran in this end and out the other as part of the terminal loop.

 

Thanks RichardT for showing us the plan.  Fascinating!

 

Keith

Alton.

 

No, its the Merchantgate end as you can see the corner of the Red lion pub on the left of the 2015 image

[RichardT]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

The 1926 revision 25" map does not show the depot being part of the tram network, the next one on the NLS shows that the trams had be abandoned as no track is shown.

Yes, another annoying puzzle.  It does also rather depend on how “revised” the OS map was - it may just have been relevelled, not resurveyed.  None of the post WW1 25” OS maps on the NLS site show the depot building at all - just the shaded outline of the plot of land it sat on.  Absence from an OS map isn’t always evidence of absence in real life…. (Another York example - I believe that at least one incarnation of the Sand Hutton Light Railway appears on none of the 25” OS maps covering its period of existence - but it did exist!)

 

What we need are some deep roadworks at the Piccadilly-Merchantgate junction…

 

RichardT

[31A]

Some more information about the York Trolleybus depot here, in particular from Page 4 onwards:

 

https://democracy.york.gov.uk/documents/s98154/Annex 2 - Online - Notication report from EH on application to list 17-21 Piccadilly.pdf

 

relating to the move to have it listed, which was declined and it was subsequently demolished.  It says "a tramline" but from what I saw when I took my pictures there were remains of at least two.  Perhaps more was uncovered when the building was demolished.  I don't know whether they were removed when the present occupants took over, or may still be there.  It is now covered by a thing called "Spark" which is basically a collection of shipping containers selling 'street food' etc., which is supposed to be temporary but this has been extended at least once.

[melmerby]

A snippet from Wikipedia:" in December 1920 four Railless trolleybuses entered service on route 4 from the foot of Parliament Street to Heworth. In 1921 all were transferred to YCT's new Piccadilly depot."

 

Another: "In 1931, the tram depot became the Airspeed aeroplane factory"

 

Aboute Airspeed: "the design office and workshop was being set up in half of an empty bus garage, on Piccadilly in York"

(my underlining)

 

As the tram route wasn't abandoned until 1935, it gives the impression trams may never have used it.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by melmerby

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, 31A said:

 It is now covered by a thing called "Spark" which is basically a collection of shipping containers selling 'street food' etc., which is supposed to be temporary but this has been extended at least once.

And a right mess it looks, as well.

[PhilJ W]

5 hours ago, RichardT said:

Yes, another annoying puzzle.  It does also rather depend on how “revised” the OS map was - it may just have been relevelled, not resurveyed.  None of the post WW1 25” OS maps on the NLS site show the depot building at all - just the shaded outline of the plot of land it sat on.  Absence from an OS map isn’t always evidence of absence in real life…. (Another York example - I believe that at least one incarnation of the Sand Hutton Light Railway appears on none of the 25” OS maps covering its period of existence - but it did exist!)

 

What we need are some deep roadworks at the Piccadilly-Merchantgate junction…

 

RichardT

As a collector of old maps including OS that doesn't surprise me. I have in my collection a 25" OS map of part of Hornchurch revised 1925 showing my old school (built c. 1925) yet I have a 6" OS map that was revised later(1927) which still shows open country where the school stood.

[45655]

On 21/12/2022 at 12:43, Ramrig said:

No, its the Merchantgate end as you can see the corner of the Red lion pub on the left of the 2015 image

I've been a bit busy recently with trains that are All Lit Up but I've now been able to refer to my copy of Barry Marsden's Middleton Press book on the York Tramways.

 

You must be right that we are seeing the Merchantgate end here as Piccadilly is running to the right of the picture.  I'm sure I recall a narrow single entrance at this end so either my memory is playing tricks with me (entirely possible) or part of the building was demolished before the photo was taken.

 

Referring to the J C Gillham map in the Marsden volume it's clear that at one time the trolleybus wiring ran from Pavement down  Piccadilly and formed a loop through the depôt, although running in the opposite direction to the one I suggested earlier i.e. in at the Merchantgate end, out at Dennis Street.  This would have been for the earlier Railless vehicles as it appears that the 1931 Carrier-Clough vehicles were always garaged at Fulford, reached by using the tram wire and a "ball and chain".  Mr Gillham also states that there was a single tramline in the Piccadilly depôt, which was never connected to the rest of the tram network (which confirms what we already know).

 

Keith

Alton.

[GoingUnderground]

I'm definitely not an expert in such matters, but it is possible that the rails in the building were laid when the building was constructed but the abandonment of the tram system in favour of conversion to trolleybus operation was becoming an option and hence the plan to connect the shed tracks to the system was scrapped before the connection was made? 

[Captain Slough]

Not sure if already mentioned but there's a still-standing tram shed in Colindale, London NW9, in the bottom (southern) corner of Montrose Park. Findable in Google Maps just by typing "Historic Colindale Tramshed Building"

[Johann Marsbar]

Found this former tram depot in Constitution Street, Aberdeen, now used for other purposes......