Old Tram Depots still in existence

[Arun Sharma]

I don't know whether it was a stabling point for trams or a covered tram terminus but for as long as I can remember there has been an obvious and very large tram related structure on Upper Street [actually at 359 Upper Street, London N1-0PD] in the box formed by Upper Street and the looping Islington High Street. It is very well shown up on Google maps - both 2D and satellite/3D. Nowadays it has some commercial function but judging by the state of preservation, it almost certainly will have some form of listing order attached to it. Any ideas on what it could have been? 

[GoingUnderground]

I don't know whether it was a stabling point for trams or a covered tram terminus but for as long as I can remember there has been an obvious and very large tram related structure on Upper Street [actually at 359 Upper Street, London N1-0PD] in the box formed by Upper Street and the looping Islington High Street. It is very well shown up on Google maps - both 2D and satellite/3D. Nowadays it has some commercial function but judging by the state of preservation, it almost certainly will have some form of listing order attached to it. Any ideas on what it could have been? 

You mean this building?

 

A quick google of the Historic England website https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1297948 reveals the following information:

 

The Mall ISLINGTON HIGH STREET. Former electricity transformer station and tram depot, now shops and restaurant. 1905-6 by the LCC Architect's Department. Yellow brick set in English bond, stone dressings, roof of Welsh slate. The surviving building is a shed with entrances at either end. The elevation to Islington High Street is divided into three bays by rusticated piers, the rustication banded as throughout the building; the broad inner piers are on either side of the central round-arched entrance and are pierced by ground-floor and mezzanine flat-arched windows, the outer piers are in pairs, flanking round-arched windows with impost blocks; three flat-arched windows in each of the side bays. Moulded stone cornice; brick parapet with stone coping. The elevation to Upper Street, though almost blank, is the most important architecturally. Screen wall with rusticated piers at either end, and two pavilions which form a centrepiece with the intervening bay. Each pavilion contains a niche, with rusticated brickwork to the sides and archivolt and springing band of stone; in each niche a blank aedicule of stone with simplified mouldings; three small windows between the pavilions with flat arches and keystones of gauged brick, the two northern windows obscured by new brickwork. The moulded stone springing band runs the full length of the building, connecting to the end entrances, and running 'behind' the flanking piers. Moulded stone cornice with modillions over the pavilions; brick parapet with stone coping to the centrepiece. Metal ventilators along the ridge of the roof. The north and south elevations consist of a massive round arch with broad rusticated pilasters and stone archivolt; modillion cornice and parapet over. Several features of the building, notably the pavilions to the Upper Street front, blank walling and niches with aedicules, were influenced by, and are a tribute to, Newgate Prison by George Dance II, which was demolished in 1902.

 

None of the contemporary maps published in Robert Harley's "LCC Electric Tramways" show that there was a depot on upper Street/Islington High Street, in particular the map on page 52. Harley doesn't mention it as being a depot. However, the map on page 66 does show that there was an electrical substation in Islington. The date of its construction 1905-6 corresponds to the period when the LCC were changing over to electric traction, so it may have been a tram electrical substation depot as opposed to a depot that once housed revenue earning trams.

 

Hope this answers your question.

[Arun Sharma]

Thank you "Going Underground" - that makes considerable sense. 

[stewartingram]

You mean this building?

Query Tram Depot.jpg

 

A quick google of the Historic England website https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1297948 reveals the following information:

 

The Mall ISLINGTON HIGH STREET. Former electricity transformer station and tram depot, now shops and restaurant. 1905-6 by the LCC Architect's Department. Yellow brick set in English bond, stone dressings, roof of Welsh slate. The surviving building is a shed with entrances at either end. The elevation to Islington High Street is divided into three bays by rusticated piers, the rustication banded as throughout the building; the broad inner piers are on either side of the central round-arched entrance and are pierced by ground-floor and mezzanine flat-arched windows, the outer piers are in pairs, flanking round-arched windows with impost blocks; three flat-arched windows in each of the side bays. Moulded stone cornice; brick parapet with stone coping. The elevation to Upper Street, though almost blank, is the most important architecturally. Screen wall with rusticated piers at either end, and two pavilions which form a centrepiece with the intervening bay. Each pavilion contains a niche, with rusticated brickwork to the sides and archivolt and springing band of stone; in each niche a blank aedicule of stone with simplified mouldings; three small windows between the pavilions with flat arches and keystones of gauged brick, the two northern windows obscured by new brickwork. The moulded stone springing band runs the full length of the building, connecting to the end entrances, and running 'behind' the flanking piers. Moulded stone cornice with modillions over the pavilions; brick parapet with stone coping to the centrepiece. Metal ventilators along the ridge of the roof. The north and south elevations consist of a massive round arch with broad rusticated pilasters and stone archivolt; modillion cornice and parapet over. Several features of the building, notably the pavilions to the Upper Street front, blank walling and niches with aedicules, were influenced by, and are a tribute to, Newgate Prison by George Dance II, which was demolished in 1902.

 

None of the contemporary maps published in Robert Harley's "LCC Electric Tramways" show that there was a depot on upper Street/Islington High Street, in particular the map on page 52. Harley doesn't mention it as being a depot. However, the map on page 66 does show that there was an electrical substation in Islington. The date of its construction 1905-6 corresponds to the period when the LCC were changing over to electric traction, so it may have been a tram electrical substation depot as opposed to a depot that once housed revenue earning trams.

 

Hope this answers your question.

 

I have always believed this to be a substation, when I first heard anything about it the quote was a substation of the trolleybus network. Linking it to the earlier trams makes sense; I have no idea about its use as a depot. It is also very close to Angel Underground station, with related infrastructure there Though both eventually came under the wing of LT, I doubt whether there was any sharing of infrastructure.

 

Stewart

[GoingUnderground]

I have always believed this to be a substation, when I first heard anything about it the quote was a substation of the trolleybus network. Linking it to the earlier trams makes sense; I have no idea about its use as a depot. It is also very close to Angel Underground station, with related infrastructure there Though both eventually came under the wing of LT, I doubt whether there was any sharing of infrastructure.

 

Stewart

The old LCC controlled and operated the tram network in Islongton in 1905/6, and was responsible for electrification of its tram network, which is why the building would have been designed by the LCC. The LCC also built its own power station at Greenwich for its tram services. UERL had its power plant at Lots Road. M.E.T. trams, which would have run through Islington were part of the UERL/LGOC/M.E.T/LUT/SMET Grouping, sometimes referred to as "The Combine". M.E.T. also had its own power stations, but only had running rights through Islington. LPTB continued the plans of the Combine to replace trams with trolleybuses on its N. and W. London routes, but extended it to include all trams in the London area. Not too much of a surprise as most of the senior management of LPTB came from The Combine, including Lord Ashfield and Frank Pick. So the substation would automatically have become a trolleybus substation after the trams were withdrawn. 

 

Looking at the size of the building compared to the modern bus alongside of it in the Bing Streetview image that I posted earlier, there would have been minimal space left inside the substation for storage of out of service trams after you allow for the transformers to step down the supplied voltage from Greenwich and the rectifiers to convert it to DC for the tram supply.

Edited September 20, 2016 by GoingUnderground

[Buhar]

Just off Bennett Street in Gorton Manchester is the huge building that used to be the parcel depot for the Corporation trams. It's now used as warehouses and light industry.

I had no idea trams provided a parcels service let alone one requiring such a large facility.

There are some tracks visible and probably more under the surface.

Access is possible as some of the firms serve the public.

[Nearholmer]

"I had no idea that trams provided a parcels service ......."

 

IIRC, some tramways had postal cars, and contracts from the GPO,mas well as their own 'courier' service.

 

And, it was not only trams, but buses too.

 

Even as recently at the 1960s, Southdown buses used to convey parcels, and I guess that some others did too. The small town that I grew-up in had a Southdown office (neat little timber and corrugated-iron place, which is now a florists), and parcels were 'booked-in' there, and were then handed to the conductor, and put in a little cupboard under the stairs of the bus, IIRC. Incoming parcels were walked/biked to the recipient by the chap from the office. Parcels could be got between most towns across Sussex and Kent (some sort of agreement with Maidstone & District, and East Kent Roadcars) by this method, within about half a day, which I think was quicker than any other method at the time.

 

I've read elsewhere that Southdown conductors could accept or drop (if the recipient was there to collect) parcels at any stop, which must have been useful out in the sticks, and I certainly saw the driver of the OPO bus that operated around the town get down and take parcels into outlying shops.

 

OK, now back to topic ......

 

Kevin

Edited September 22, 2016 by Nearholmer

[joppyuk1]

The Alford and Sutton Tramway offices is now a private house, while the tram shed is used as a warehouse. Unfortunately I don't have access to my photos at the moment.

[PhilJ W]

Just off Bennett Street in Gorton Manchester is the huge building that used to be the parcel depot for the Corporation trams. It's now used as warehouses and light industry.

I had no idea trams provided a parcels service let alone one requiring such a large facility.

There are some tracks visible and probably more under the surface.

Access is possible as some of the firms serve the public.

Some large operators had special parcels tramcars, Dublin, Manchester and the Black Country tramways for example.

[roythebus]

"I had no idea that trams provided a parcels service ......."

 

IIRC, some tramways had postal cars, and contracts from the GPO,mas well as their own 'courier' service.

 

And, it was not only trams, but buses too.

 

Even as recently at the 1960s, Southdown buses used to convey parcels, and I guess that some others did too. The small town that I grew-up in had a Southdown office (neat little timber and corrugated-iron place, which is now a florists), and parcels were 'booked-in' there, and were then handed to the conductor, and put in a little cupboard under the stairs of the bus, IIRC. Incoming parcels were walked/biked to the recipient by the chap from the office. Parcels could be got between most towns across Sussex and Kent (some sort of agreement with Maidstone & District, and East Kent Roadcars) by this method, within about half a day, which I think was quicker than any other method at the time.

 

I've read elsewhere that Southdown conductors could accept or drop (if the recipient was there to collect) parcels at any stop, which must have been useful out in the sticks, and I certainly saw the driver of the OPO bus that operated around the town get down and take parcels into outlying shops.

 

OK, now back to topic ......

 

Kevin

 

Indeed, Tillingbourne Valley of Chilworth used to deliver the Evening News and Evening standard until the early 1970's to outlying shops in their fleet of former LT GS buses!

[roythebus]

The building in Upper Street was also an antiques arcade from probably the late 1960's until the mid 1990's according to my partner Lisa who happened to live in the area at the time. There were plans to demolish it but luckily it seems to have some sort of preservation order on it. It may also be down to the fact that someone I know was the Borough Surveyor for Islington and is very much a transport enthusiast. He also managed to help save the "Aggie" Horticultural Hall almost opposite. 

 

Maybe the London Transport Museum has more info on the building?

[roythebus]

I'm pleased to say the old horse tram depot at Hythe Kent is still there. I really must download the pictures of it one day!

[RJS1977]

 

Looking at the size of the building compared to the modern bus alongside of it in the Bing Streetview image that I posted earlier, there would have been minimal space left inside the substation for storage of out of service trams after you allow for the transformers to step down the supplied voltage from Greenwich and the rectifiers to convert it to DC for the tram supply.

 

Two points about this building:

 

1) The web article quoted says that this is the only "surviving building", "a shed with an entrance at each end" - the transformers etc could have been in another part of the complex, now demolished.

2) The entrance in Street View looks large enough for a tram to have gone through it - certainly I don't see why a substation would need an entrance that big.

Edited October 1, 2016 by RJS1977

[PhilJ W]

Two points about this building:

 

1) The web article quoted says that this is the only "surviving building", "a shed with an entrance at each end".

2) The entrance in Street View looks large enough for a tram to have gone through it - certainly I don't see why a substation would need an entrance that big.

Indeed, most trams and certainly those that operated in London were no more than 7 feet wide and trams being confined to rails could pass through entrances and other gaps only requiring a few inches either side.

[melmerby]

At a rough estimate I make the openings about 17' to the base of the arch and about 7' 6" wide.

Certainly enough for a double deck tram and wiring.

 

Keith

[Stevelewis]

how about johnstown, near wrexham

 

http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/403323/images/DS2005_002_001.jpg

 

A bit  of  a  belated  reply,  For  quite  a few  years  when  I did  a proper  job  working  for  a  well known  healthcare  company  who  used  to  have  a  tall building, by  the elevated  bit  of  the  M4 outside  London as  the  HO. I often  used  to  park  by  the  Johnstown ( Wrexham) Tram Shed when visiting  the  Pharmacy on the  main road,  I am not  sure  if  it  has not been demolished by now  though, it  was  becoming  quite 'unloved' over  the  years.

[rockershovel]

Millfield Bus Depot, Lincoln Rd, Peterborough - still in use as a bus depot

[melmerby]

Millfield Bus Depot, Lincoln Rd, Peterborough - still in use as a bus depot

The current buildings don't look like tramcar sheds.

Maybe new depot for buses on same site?

 

Keith

[Derekl]

Looking at the size of the building compared to the modern bus alongside of it in the Bing Streetview image that I posted earlier, there would have been minimal space left inside the substation for storage of out of service trams after you allow for the transformers to step down the supplied voltage from Greenwich and the rectifiers to convert it to DC for the tram supply.

 

I recall this building from the 1980s when I lived in the area. There was a fairly yuppified restaurant on the upper floor which I patronised on occasion. There is no way it was large enough to act a s a depot.

[GoingUnderground]

Two points about this building:

 

1) The web article quoted says that this is the only "surviving building", "a shed with an entrance at each end" - the transformers etc could have been in another part of the complex, now demolished.

2) The entrance in Street View looks large enough for a tram to have gone through it - certainly I don't see why a substation would need an entrance that big.

1. The site is an island site, bounded by Upper Street and Islington High Street. The description of the building suggests that all the faces are original exterior walls. The presence of original archways at either end suggests there was no other building at either end. Maps from the early part of the 20th century show the same road layout as today, i.e. an island site bounded by roadways on all 4 sides. So I'm not sure where your theoretical demolished adjoining building would have sat.

 

2. You may have seriously underestimated the size of the transformers, rectifiers, and associated switching equipment it would have housed. The transformers are likely to have been the same size as, or bigger than, (as we are talking of electrical equipment from 110 years ago), the ones in your local substation. When they failed, or needed servicing or replacement, as they might have done, they'd need to be removed, so access would need to deliver the equipment in the first place. The archways would need to be large enough to get a trailer or wagon into the building for the transformers, rectifiers etc,to be delivered and unloaded or loaded and removed. The need for undercover unloading and loading may have influenced the beight of the building. It appears to me that it was designed to include sufficient headroom for the permanent installation of a beam and lifting tackle to raise up a transformer so that the a trailer could be rolled in below it and the transformer lowered on to it. Or to allow equipment to be lifted and moved above other equipment in situ. If you think about the building's purpose and what it contained, An entrance at each end might have been for the trailer to be driven through, or for separate bays at each end. If there had just been a personnel door, the building would have to be partly demolished to gain access if it was ever necessary to replace the electrical equipment it would have contained.

 

None of the books that I have on LCC tramways mention a tramcar depot in that area at any time. Designed and built in 1906 means it would not have been a horse tram depot or stables as the LCC were electrifying their system from the very early 1900s. It would not have been a M.E.T. depot as Islington is well within the old LCC area, and M.E.T. were not allowed depots in the LCC area, only running rights after the LCC and M.E.T. systems were interconnected. But the maps do refer to there being an electrical substation in Upper Street, as I quoted in my original reply. Thee may have been space for a very small number of service rolling stock at best. 

Edited October 1, 2016 by GoingUnderground

[melmerby]

A 1916 map clearly shows it as an "Electric Sub-sta. (L.C.C.)" with a double track tramway passing by but with no tracks to the building.

 

 

Keith

[rockershovel]

The current buildings don't look like tramcar sheds.

Maybe new depot for buses on same site?

 

Keith

There is an image on the peterboroughimages.co.uk website describing it as Lincoln Road, dating from 1913, showing what looks very much like the still-extant shed on the site, although with minimal background detail. None of the other buildings on the site look old enough.

 

I don't believe the image can be posted here for copyright (?) but it's easy enough to find.

 

At least one source quotes the tramway as being 3'6" gauge

Edited October 2, 2016 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

I don't have enough access here at work for map ref etc, but the old Cambridge depot on East Road is still there. After many years dereliction it was restored a few years back as a fancy pub.

 

Stewart

Is that the same place which lists its address as The Tram Depot, Dover St? If so it was originally the stables for the original horse drawn trams

[rockershovel]

Possibly, or possibly not slightly OT but Outwell Goods Depot office (last surviving structure of the Wisbech and Upwell Tramway) still exists within a private garden.

[jamie92208]

Is that the same place which lists its address as The Tram Depot, Dover St? If so it was originally the stables for the original horse drawn trams

 

Cambridge Tramways were 4' gauge and converted to electricity in IIRC 1914.  They shared a gauge with Bath, Bradford and some others.   By chance one of the Cambridge horse cars survived as a garden shed and is now under restoration at Ipswich Transport Museum.   During Restoration they found the Bradford coat of arms underneath the Cambridge paintwork and eventually traced the history of the car.  It was built in the early 1880's for Bath as a single decker, then sold to Bradford where a kit for an upper deck was installed and it was used as a steam tram trailer before being sold to Cambridge where it was used as a double deck horse tram.  The Leeds Transport Historical Society (LTHS) was contacted for help with re creating the running gear.  We then modified the design of the running gear that we had built for our restored Leeds car (107) and built a set of 4' gauge running gear which is now under the tram as restoration continues.

 

Jamie