BR IC125 barrier coach formations

[Intercity 125]

What locos hauled coaches like this? http://www.departmentals.com/photo/975655 Any help would be much appreciated.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Intercity 125

[Ogauge83A]

What locos hauled coaches like this? http://www.departmentals.com/photo/975655 Any help would be much appreciated.

Quoted from the departmentals page

 

'Previously W 14065, a Mk.2A BFK.'

[HSTFAN13]

Hi

Here's a pic(not mine)of a class 43 HST Power Car pulling a MK2 barrier Coach

http://www.flickr.com/photos/blackwatch55013/4727842181/

Hope this helps

Lee

HSTFAN13

[HSTFAN13]

Quoted from the departmentals page

 

'Previously W 14065, a Mk.2A BFK.'

I posted that earlier but then reread the OP and worked out that intercity 125 is looking for locos that pulled this coach so I deleted my original post saying that it was a MK2a coach

Lee

HSTFAN13

Edited March 14, 2014 by HSTFAN13

[royaloak]

Basically any air braked loco could haul it.

[newbryford]

HST's only have buckeye couplings, so if they (or the Mk3 HST stock) needed moving anywhere by being towed dead, they needed a barrier vehicle to couple to the buckeye of the HST stock.

In truth any loco-hauled Mk1/2/3 could be used as an adaptor vehicle, but redundant coaches were allocated and branded for this use.

 

Single power cars moving under their own power would often have a barrier vehicle attached, so that if problems did occur, it wouldn't need use of the emergency drawbar coupler to shift them.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited March 15, 2014 by newbryford

[Intercity 125]

Thanks for all the replies, I'll probably use my class 47.

[pheaton]

In the summer of 1987 there was major power car shortage so a number of sets ran in service with one power car only, that car was included in the end in case it required assistance in the rear...or an empty stock working in the opposite direction (like at London Paddington or penzance) which would require the assistance of a conventional loco.

 

Mick is correct in that it would have been used to tow sets or power cars between depots

 

Mick is also correct in that HSTs only had buckeyes.....and not drop heads like conventional mk1, mk2, mk3 stock....but that's not an issue as number of loco's were fitted with buckeyes...eg 33/1 the biggest problem with a HST trailer is the lack of buffers which means you need a rubbing plate to connect to it as only 33/1s were the only diesel equipped with such a plate (for hauling southern region stock) and 73s for hauling GATex stock as neither were not common on the western region a mk2 vehicle was provided because it has the correct rubbing plate on the gangway it didn't have to be ETH fitted because a HSTs rake is non standard ETS it uses 3 phase.

 

When you use a buckeye on a conventional mk1 or mk2 or mk3 coach you would shorten the buffers and use the rubbing plate if you were connecting rakes together or connecting to a buckeye fitted loco 33/1, 66, 67, 73, 90, 91 however if you were using the hook, you drop the buckeye and extend the buffers and fit retention plates.

 

Note that photo shows the buckeye dropped and the buffers extended

 

If you look on page 119 of colin j marsdens HST silver juibilee book you will see one of those coaches in a HST set in service

Edited March 15, 2014 by pheaton

[HillsideDepot]

The strangest HST "barrier coach" working I have seen (albeit not with an officially designated Barrier Coach) was at Leeds, heading for Neville Hill depot on 26/05/91.

 

91014 - INTERCITY Swallow - blunt end leading

47482 - Large Logo blue

43040 - INTERCITY Swallow - nose leading

13600 - Blue/Grey - Mk2D FK as the barrier

 

With certain guidelines, as mentioned in posts above, pretty much anything goes.

[stadman]

 

In truth any loco-hauled Mk1/2/3 could be used as an adaptor vehicle, but redundant coaches were allocated and branded for this use.

 

Yes but would need a compatible buckeye, those used on MK3 HST vehicles are different from drop head types used on loco hauled stock

[pheaton]

Really?

 

I don't think so.

 

1) I have never seen myself or seen in a photo an HST set with only one power car (certainly not in passenger use)

 

2) One power car wouldn't have the acceleration to keep to the timings and would run out of fuel well before the end of its daily diagram, which leads to ...

 

3) What happens when the HST set gets to the end of its first journey (whether Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol, Plymouth or Penzance) and needs to work back to Paddington within about an hour? Answer: it can't, it has nothing to drive the train from at the other end and only 2 places on the region (Bristol and Old Oak Common) had turntables.

 

 

Quite a number of HSTs were replaced by loco hauled stock during hot summers due to failures but I disagree with the statement that any service train ever ran with only one power car.

 

 

theres a phot of one such service in the book I mentioned in my post

 

and I didn't say they worked a daily diagram....they worked a service!

 

and also I think you will find a hst on one power car can keep reasonably close to its timing but the fuel sentiment you said is true and in the event needing to come back it didn't...it was hauled to the depot by a conventional locomotive.

 

the service in question was the 10:35 paignton Paddington, however the service started from newton abbot owing to being unable to run to paignton from laira

Edited March 15, 2014 by pheaton

[phil-b259]

One power car wouldn't have the acceleration to keep to the timings

 

Its worth noting that away from the Paddington - Swindon - Bristol Parkway, linespeeds (in general) were 100mph or less which might of helped in a one power car situation. Of course on the flip side the route to the West Country does have some significant gradients which could well cause timekeeping issues

[45125]

The correct name for the coupler on HSTs is, Alliance. It is basically a solid shank buckeye.

 

HSTs have run with no rear power car on several occasions between Leeds and Edinburgh( 1S11/1S03) due to power car failures at Neville Hill. A replacement power car being provided in the Waverley.

 

 

Regards 

Al Taylor

[frobisher]

Mick is also correct in that HSTs only had buckeyes.....and not drop heads like conventional mk1, mk2, mk3 stock....but that's not an issue as number of loco's were fitted with buckeyes...eg 33/1 the biggest problem with a HST trailer is the lack of buffers which means you need a rubbing plate to connect to it as only 33/1s were the only diesel equipped with such a plate (for hauling southern region stock) and 73s for hauling GATex stock as neither were not common on the western region a mk2 vehicle was provided because it has the correct rubbing plate on the gangway it didn't have to be ETH fitted because a HSTs rake is non standard ETS it uses 3 phase.

A rubbing plate is not necessary for coupling to the HST stock - the buckeye equipped 08's were specifically modified for such shunting duties and didn't have them. The rubbing plate however is very desirable for propelling at speed which is not a scenario you'd be using anything other than an HST power car for on an HST set (with the notable exception of those sets modified for the introduction of the 91 and 89 on the EML back in the day...).

[eastwestdivide]

On the subject of buckeyes, back in 86/87, surely the only buckeye fitted mainline locos were the SR 33s and 73s.

 

Going back to the power car shortage, in 1986, there was a WR set running round with no power cars, a generator at one end and a normal Mk2 BFK at the other, as here:

 

The generator car (Mk1 BG conversion) between a 47 and the HST set, Reading:

 

and two from possibly the same day, different ends of the train:

generator at country end, BFK visible at the back, Reading:

 

BFK at the front, London end, only 1 Mk3 first class, and generator out of sight at the back, between Reading/Goring somewhere:

 

[multiprinter]

 

 

3) What happens when the HST set gets to the end of its first journey (whether Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol, Plymouth or Penzance) and needs to work back to Paddington within about an hour? Answer: it can't, it has nothing to drive the train from at the other end and only 2 places on the region (Bristol and Old Oak Common) had turntables.

 

 

 

 

Swansea:  Turn set on Landore triangle. Been there, done that,  BG at rear in place of missing power car.

Cardiff: It would be remarkable bad luck if one of the couple of terminating services happened to be short of a power car but turning options available. Most likely option would have been to terminate at Newport and turn at Maindee

Bristol: Replacement power car off the Marsh otherwise turn via Dr Days.

Plymouth: Replacement power car (or set) off Laira.

Penzance: Only a problem if the power car had to be detached west of Plymouth otherwise the train would either have terminated at Plymouth or had a replacement power car attached there off Laira.

[298]

The strangest HST "barrier coach" working I have seen (albeit not with an officially designated Barrier Coach) was at Leeds, heading for Neville Hill depot on 26/05/91.

 

91014 - INTERCITY Swallow - blunt end leading

47482 - Large Logo blue

43040 - INTERCITY Swallow - nose leading

13600 - Blue/Grey - Mk2D FK as the barrier

 

With certain guidelines, as mentioned in posts above, pretty much anything goes.

Since 90s and 91s aren't permitted to couple to HSTs using their nose bar coupling, the 47 could have only been there as a barrier vehicle...

  

Its worth noting that away from the Paddington - Swindon - Bristol Parkway, linespeeds (in general) were 100mph or less which might of helped in a one power car situation. Of course on the flip side the route to the West Country does have some significant gradients which could well cause timekeeping issues

Considering a set containing a failed power car is banned from the South Devon banks, a single power car would struggle, even without the dead weight of it's twin.

[phil-b259]

Since 90s and 91s aren't permitted to couple to HSTs using their nose bar coupling

 

 

Any chance you can give details as to why

[Bomag]

Any chance you can give details as to why

 

 

From what I was told in 1989/90 either the corridor connection rubbing plate or the drophead buckeye coupler would foul the emergency coupler when in motion.

[45125]

Any chance you can give details as to why

90 and 9s can couple to HSTs using the bar, how ever an adaptor and wedge is need, these are carried on 91s as part of the emergency equipment. 

 

 

Regards

Al Taylor.

 

PS have coupled  91 to an HST a couple of times, and the rubbing strip comes no where near the nose end /open nose door.

Edited March 16, 2014 by 45125

[298]

90 and 9s can couple to HSTs using the bar, whomever an adaptor and wedge is need, these are carried on 91s as part of the emergency equipment. 

 

 

Regards

Al Taylor.

 

PS have coupled  91 to an HST a couple of times, and the rubbing strip comes no where near the nose end /open nose door.

I was told it was to do with the position of the clipped buffers, even when retracted (other buffers might not be an issue, but there was a blanket ban on 90s hauling HSTs on the Virgin fuelsaver moves).

[Bristol_Rich]

Really?

 

I don't think so.

 

1) I have never seen myself or seen in a photo an HST set with only one power car (certainly not in passenger use)

 

2) One power car wouldn't have the acceleration to keep to the timings and would run out of fuel well before the end of its daily diagram, which leads to ...

 

3) What happens when the HST set gets to the end of its first journey (whether Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol, Plymouth or Penzance) and needs to work back to Paddington within about an hour? Answer: it can't, it has nothing to drive the train from at the other end and only 2 places on the region (Bristol and Old Oak Common) had turntables.

 

 

Quite a number of HSTs were replaced by loco hauled stock during hot summers due to failures but I disagree with the statement that any service train ever ran with only one power car.

 

I think the first minute demonstrates the use of the single power cars...

 

Edited March 16, 2014 by rich_eason

[Catkins]

What is noticeable about the single power car rake is the amount of work (exhaust smoke produced) being done, compared to the next set with two power cars on it.

[The Stationmaster]

On the subject of buckeyes, back in 86/87, surely the only buckeye fitted mainline locos were the SR 33s and 73s.

 

Going back to the power car shortage, in 1986, there was a WR set running round with no power cars, a generator at one end and a normal Mk2 BFK at the other, as here:

 

The generator car (Mk1 BG conversion) between a 47 and the HST set, Reading:

86-3-24.jpg

 

and two from possibly the same day, different ends of the train:

generator at country end, BFK visible at the back, Reading:

86-4-2.jpg

 

BFK at the front, London end, only 1 Mk3 first class, and generator out of sight at the back, between Reading/Goring somewhere:

86-4-5.jpg

Excellent stuff, it takes me back because on one occasion I travelled all the way from Temple Meads to Paddington in the generator van as part of a safety assessment!  The train normally had the generator van marshalled Bristol end, incidentally the BG had a B4 bogie at one end and a B5 at the other if memory serves me right.

 

Now to trains running with only one power car - well first point to note is that running west of Newton Abbot (on either the main line or the branch) with only one power car operative was banned following several complete failures of trains which had a defective power car.  The simple reason was that one power car alone could not be relied on to lift the formation on the steepest banks without overheating and the engine shutting down so trains had to be assisted by a loco (the requirement did not apply between Plymouth and Penzance but did apply climbing the Lickey).

 

Second point to note is that it's all well and good starting out but arrival at destination would lead to major problems with the difficulty of coupling to the rear of the train - and the same of course applied for assistance as unless there was a suitable barrier vehicle it was impossible to assist and HST from the rear if it didn't have a power car there.  It might well have happened due to a failure enroute but I can't quite see how the train would have come off depot to start its journey in the first place to be honest.

 

Secondly GWML Line Speeds - subject to one or two local restrictions to lower speeds (e.g Reading and Swindon) 125 mph was permitted between Actron and just short of Box Tunnel - 94 miles, 100 mph was permitted on various parts of the Berks & Hants but the rest was 90mph (although I think some was subsequently raised), and again with some intermediate restrictions (varying between 100 and 120 mph) 125 mph was permitted from Wootton Bassett west to just short of Pilning on the Badminton line.  Thus running on only one engine could, and did, result in considerable loss of time in running on the Bristol and South Wales routes and of course the same applies equally on much of the lower speed routes where the loss of accelerative was far more important than losing 10mph of the maximum speed the train could manage (where allowed).

[eastwestdivide]

Excellent stuff, it takes me back because on one occasion I travelled all the way from Temple Meads to Paddington in the generator van as part of a safety assessment!  ....

Did it have any seats? Room for one person to sit in the guard's compartment, as it looks like it was still installed, with the generator just up at one end? Was that why the bogies were different, because the weight of the generator was up at one end? 

Edited March 16, 2014 by eastwestdivide