BR IC125 barrier coach formations

[newbryford]

Excellent stuff, it takes me back because on one occasion I travelled all the way from Temple Meads to Paddington in the generator van as part of a safety assessment!  The train normally had the generator van marshalled Bristol end, incidentally the BG had a B4 bogie at one end and a B5 at the other if memory serves me right.

 

 

 

The B5 is visible at the far end - the heavier square section spring plank/bolster and traction control rod is the giveaway.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited March 16, 2014 by newbryford

[Catkins]

The generator van would have had a B5 under the 'generator' end due to the weight, but under the 'van' end it would still have the B4.

Some Mark 1 Restaurant and Kitchen cars had the same bogie arrangement.

 

As for riding in the van, I guess that there would still be a need for a handbrake - so why not leave the guard's equipment, and office, in place.

[The Stationmaster]

Did it have any seats? Room for one person to sit in the guard's compartment, as it looks like it was still installed, with the generator just up at one end? Was that why the bogies were different, because the weight of the generator was up at one end? 

As others have said - the generator was at one end and the original Guards 'cabin' remained in the centre of the vehicle  On the trip I did there were 5 of us riding in it so we took the precaution of loading some office chairs.

[newbryford]

As others have said - the generator was at one end and the original Guards 'cabin' remained in the centre of the vehicle  On the trip I did there were 5 of us riding in it so we took the precaution of loading some office chairs.

 

So why didn't they take the precaution of fitting a B5 at the other end?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry!

 

Coat, getting, leaving room......

 

Cheers,

Mick

[HillsideDepot]

As others have said - the generator was at one end and the original Guards 'cabin' remained in the centre of the vehicle  On the trip I did there were 5 of us riding in it so we took the precaution of loading some office chairs.

 

Back in the days when the Gen-Set was running there was still a lot of Royal Mail traffic travelling by rail, I remember every HST was met at Chippenham by a postman with his electric tractor and a trailer. Presumably the non-generator end of the coach was used as van space, just as the power car would have been. I'm sure I saw the set call at Chippenham, but I don't recall it in sufficient detail to remember what happened with the mails.

[The Stationmaster]

So why didn't they take the precaution of fitting a B5 at the other end?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry!

 

Coat, getting, leaving room......

 

Cheers,

Mick

I was a slim fellah back then - my standard gauge days and before I entered the broad gauge era.

 

Back in the days when the Gen-Set was running there was still a lot of Royal Mail traffic travelling by rail, I remember every HST was met at Chippenham by a postman with his electric tractor and a trailer. Presumably the non-generator end of the coach was used as van space, just as the power car would have been. I'm sure I saw the set call at Chippenham, but I don't recall it in sufficient detail to remember what happened with the mails.

I was not used for van space for several reasons - firstly the matter of security or someone interfering with the genset and secondly the question of fire risk.  Hence the vehicle on the other end had a van area and was for the Guard's use; the gangways to the generator BG ere always locked and couldn't be opened without parting it from the train.

[Swindon 123]

Really?

 

I don't think so.

 

1) I have never seen myself or seen in a photo an HST set with only one power car (certainly not in passenger use)

 

2) One power car wouldn't have the acceleration to keep to the timings and would run out of fuel well before the end of its daily diagram, which leads to ...

 

3) What happens when the HST set gets to the end of its first journey (whether Swansea, Cardiff, Bristol, Plymouth or Penzance) and needs to work back to Paddington within about an hour? Answer: it can't, it has nothing to drive the train from at the other end and only 2 places on the region (Bristol and Old Oak Common) had turntables.

 

 

Quite a number of HSTs were replaced by loco hauled stock during hot summers due to failures but I disagree with the statement that any service train ever ran with only one power car.

During 1983/4 there where major issues with the cooling system on the ER HST fleet. Bounds Green had to resort to the system of only employing one working power car on certain services. The set ran with two power cars on it but one of them was a dead duck. The policy was to employ these sets on the Leeds services leaving the available 2 working power car sets for the Anglo-Scottish services. I was travelling up to Peterborough in May 1984 on the 0850 Leeds to do my MP12, Part c handling, on one of the one power car sets when it expired at Connington and had to be rescued by a 47 from Peterborough. Handling exam was slightly late that day. I did once see an HST in service with only one power car on it. One arrived at Kings cross with two on but with leading one failed. At "The Cross" this was declared unfit to carry on and was detached from the set, which then departed north with a service train. The north end power car fortunately able to carry on. The KX pilot then had to grab a spare coach from the motorail bay and couple up to the failed unit and drag it out to Bounds Green. This was the only time I ever saw this.

 

Paul J.

[Phil R]

Evening

 

Resurrecting an old topic. I'm interested in Summer 1988 services, several NE-SW workings used a class 47/4 hauling a HST set with a Generator Van at one end and a HST Barrier Vehicle at the other as discussed earlier.

 

Is anyone able to identify the barrier vehicle in this shot? Looks like a Mk2c BSO but only carrying a 4 digit TOPS number rather than a Departmental ADB 9xxxxx number. Nor does it carry any specific branding.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blackwatch55013/5511742841/in/photolist-9p487Z-9p7bUs

 

HST Barrier Vehicles were renumbered into the 63xx series but this was around 1990 I believe.

 

The Colin Marsden book HST Silver Jubilee states that depots made up their own vehicles from spare coaches, fitting a buck-eye coupling at one end.

Would this be done ad-hoc and why not use the dedicated departmental vehicles?

 

As an aside, despite the departmental vehicles being branded as "barrier" vehicles, they are (more correctly?) referred to as "match" vehicles in some books.

 

Thanks

 

Phil

Edited July 26, 2018 by Phil R

[russ p]

A train that I regret taking pictures of was a wheel lathe move from thornaby to Greensfield and Heaton, that consisted of an HST power car a HST buffet,barrier coach and several speedlink vans. Basically an HST hauled freight!

This was about 1986 and I have spoken to some retired staff that were working about this time and formations such as this were not that uncommon.

Unfortunately this train left thornaby about 2200 so photographs will be very rare but I can assure you it certainty ran at least once

[eastwestdivide]

Evening

 

Resurrecting an old topic. I'm interested in Summer 1988 services, several NE-SW workings used a class 47/4 hauling a HST set with a Generator Van at one end and a HST Barrier Vehicle at the other as discussed earlier.

 

Is anyone able to identify the barrier vehicle in this shot? Looks like a Mk2c BSO but only carrying a 4 digit TOPS number rather than a Departmental ADB 9xxxxx number. Nor does it carry any specific branding.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blackwatch55013/5511742841/in/photolist-9p487Z-9p7bUs

 

HST Barrier Vehicles were renumbered into the 63xx series but this was around 1990 I believe.

 

The Colin Marsden book HST Silver Jubilee states that depots made up their own vehicles from spare coaches, fitting a buck-eye coupling at one end.

Would this be done ad-hoc and why not use the dedicated departmental vehicles?

 

As an aside, despite the departmental vehicles being branded as "barrier" vehicles, they are (more correctly?) referred to as "match" vehicles in some books.

 

Thanks

 

Phil

It could be a normal traffic BSO - when the Western used the generator set, it was just a normal traffic coach, not a specific barrier/match (see post 15 on p1 of this thread).

Surely all you would need is a normal coach, using the buckeye at the Mk3 end and the hook at the loco end? With the specially-designated barrier coaches more for movements to/from works for maintenance?

[Wickham Green]

Evening

 

Resurrecting an old topic. I'm interested in Summer 1988 services, several NE-SW workings used a class 47/4 hauling a HST set with a Generator Van at one end and a HST Barrier Vehicle at the other as discussed earlier.

 

Is anyone able to identify the barrier vehicle in this shot? Looks like a Mk2c BSO but only carrying a 4 digit TOPS number rather than a Departmental ADB 9xxxxx number. Nor does it carry any specific branding.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blackwatch55013/5511742841/in/photolist-9p487Z-9p7bUs

 

HST Barrier Vehicles were renumbered into the 63xx series but this was around 1990 I believe.

 

 

Phil

Are they definitely HST trailers - or could they be a rake of loco-hauled stock ? .......................... obviously straight out the box whatever they are !

[EddieK]

I suspect it is an HST as there is a Mark 3 buffet car. If it was a set with a loco hauled Mark 3 buffet car I would suspect that the West Coast main line would be alarmed at the loss of one of their trains, also the WCML sets had more than one First Class carriage (normally).

[eastwestdivide]

The Flickr photo also says it's 47418 - were they able to supply ETH to Mk3s? I vaguely remember some restrictions on those first 47/4s and also the Deltics. 

If that's the case, it would make more sense if it was HST coaches with the generator van out of sight at the back.

[Davexoc]

The Colin Marsden book HST Silver Jubilee states that depots made up their own vehicles from spare coaches, fitting a buck-eye coupling at one end.

Would this be done ad-hoc and why not use the dedicated departmental vehicles?

Most if not all coaching stock then was buck-eye fitted, so any spare vehicle could be used with the buck-eye dropped at the loco end to expose the hook.

 

Dave

[45125]

Most if not all coaching stock then was buck-eye fitted, so any spare vehicle could be used with the buck-eye dropped at the loco end to expose the hook.

 

Dave

 

More often than not a barrier vehicle would have been used, if non was available a revenue earring vehicle would then be used.

[MJI]

Hmm more HST coaches required

 

Seen in Gloucester 1981

 

47 166

W81254

W41147

W41148

W40015

W42254

W42258

W42262

W44000

ADB975325

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by MJI

[fiftyfour fiftyfour]

On 26/07/2018 at 23:48, Phil R said:

 

 

The Colin Marsden book HST Silver Jubilee states that depots made up their own vehicles from spare coaches, fitting a buck-eye coupling at one end.

Would this be done ad-hoc and why not use the dedicated departmental vehicles?

 

 

Late to the party on this one but be VERY careful with any "fact" printed in that Colin Marsden HST book, the guy really has no idea what he is talking about! Pretty much all Mk2's and loco hauled Mk3's had drop head buckeyes making them suitable for use as barriers between Alliance buckeyes on HST vehicles and draw hook fitted locos but as others have said only the specially modified HST generator car or an HST power car can put power through the coaches for heat/light/air con. Elsewhere in the same book it stated that the TGS vehicles modified with drop-head buckeyes and buffers for the 'hybrid' Class 91 operation were subsequently used as barriers (and still used as barriers until at least 2002 when the book was published), that nugget of fiction was among many similar items of complete fabrication in that book.

 

[45125]

Most of the vehicles "converted" to barrier vehicles came from stock that was made surplus by the arrival of the HSTs. The first barriers had little or no work done on, later ones had windows plated over and gangways removed/sealed.

 

The TGS with drop heads and buffers had them removed at their CEM overhauls when the need for them was no longer required and they were never used as barriers.

 

As for Mr Marsden as former railwayman he does come out with some right howlers.