Dawlish Diversion Route

[Glorious NSE]

Did I hear that right on Spotlight earlier, the old LSWR route would be the cheapest option??  

Il have a few hats to eat if that comes off!!!

 

Lots of people seem to be saying odd stuff today - here's a tweet from our MP earlier...

 

 

Retweeted Ben Bradshaw (@BenPBradshaw):

Minister promises me more passing places & electrification of Wessex route west of Salisbury! Unintentional? His officials looked startled.

That one isn't in the document announced today! 

[southernman8]

Yes, but ... - as Martyn has already said, the various efforts at extending what amounts to a London - Salisbury - Exeter service beyond Exeter have never seemed to last on a reliable basis over a series of timetable changes.  Equally why increase the resource cost of the GW route services by diverting them via Yeovil and chucking in a reversal at Exeter - what benefit would that bring?  Currently just about every station on the Salisbury - Exeter route has a better service to/from London than at any other time in its history and with reasonable quality trains doing the honours.

 

It is interesting that the traditional attitude in the Yeovil area was to regard the Waterloo route as being 'the better way' of going to London with many folk regarding Paddington as a less than usefully sited London terminus.  Thus people remained more inclined to go to Yeovil Jcn or Sherborne for a London train than to the improved service from Castle Cary (I'm talking 1970s, but much passenger thinking was founded on much earlier thoughts).  As I worked in the area - covering both routes - for some years I found that local thinking tended to be rather different from the way I had looked previously at the railway network with Yeovil Pen Mill being seen very much as the station for Bristol, the Midlands and Wales (and Weymouth) rather than as anything else, and I doubt that would change.

 

If trains did exist following the route you suggest no doubt some people would use them but would the additional revenue make up for the lost revenue and extra costs - I think not. 

The SWT service west of Exeter ended primarily because of the introduction of the hourly service to Exeter utilising all units. Salisbury depot is full with units stabled at night in and around the station as well in the depot itself. There does not appear to be any capacity during weekdays to allow west of Exeter services. Whether that might change when electrification happens? Will I get to see that - or ride on the re-opened line from Exeter-Plymouth via Okehampton? Hope so but no spades in the ground just yet!

 

I can confirm that in the main locals continue to regard the 'Waterloo' line as the way to get to London (increasing in numbers) and Pen Mill as the north-south route. There is evidence that some of the Castle Cary 'locals' drive to Templecombe/Gillingham for the more frequent and generally reliable service which is often cheaper, particularly at peak times.

[Gerald Henriksen]

Did I hear that right on Spotlight earlier, the old LSWR route would be the cheapest option??  

Il have a few hats to eat if that comes off!!!

 

Well, it depends.

 

Having gone back to re-read the summary I made back in the summer it is the cheapest option if you eliminate the Teign Valley branch option which, despite being really (relatively) cheap, was always going to be a non-starter.

 

The problem though is that once you add in the "hidden cost" in the LSWR route it is only £400 million cheaper than C4, and as I said then you may as well pay that extra amount so you can actually serve the population centres of Devon and avoid the operational problems of reversing at Plymouth and Exeter.

 

I would guess the announcement today okays Network Rail spending additional money to firm up the estimates of the cost of the options, and most importantly punts the issue until after the next election.

[Glorious NSE]

The SWT service west of Exeter ended primarily because of the introduction of the hourly service to Exeter utilising all units. Salisbury depot is full with units stabled at night in and around the station as well in the depot itself. There does not appear to be any capacity during weekdays to allow west of Exeter services. Whether that might change when electrification happens? Will I get to see that - or ride on the re-opened line from Exeter-Plymouth via Okehampton? Hope so but no spades in the ground just yet!

If this is CP6 then capacity (in the context of no more trains) will likely not be an issue as assorted electrification schemes will be paying off by cascading units by then.

 

I can confirm that in the main locals continue to regard the 'Waterloo' line as the way to get to London (increasing in numbers) and Pen Mill as the north-south route. There is evidence that some of the Castle Cary 'locals' drive to Templecombe/Gillingham for the more frequent and generally reliable service which is often cheaper, particularly at peak times.

More comfortable too, some of us prefer it from Exeter even!

[brianusa]

The problem though is that once you add in the "hidden cost" in the LSWR route it is only £400 million cheaper than C4, and as I said then you may as well pay that extra amount so you can actually serve the population centres of Devon and avoid the operational problems of reversing at Plymouth and Exeter.

 

 

I'm intrigued with the 'operational problems' mentioned many times in this discussion. What is so onerous in changing ends which wouldn't be necessary on the Southern line? Many trains terminate at Plymouth which would leave only those going onto Cornwall needing a end swap. They do it many times a day on the Gunnislake line!

 

Finding a path may be the consideration one would suppose but surely that is not unattainable in this day and age. As one not in the know, it would be interesting to know the reasons why not.

 

Brian.

[Captain Kernow]

The problem though is that once you add in the "hidden cost" in the LSWR route it is only £400 million cheaper than C4, and as I said then you may as well pay that extra amount so you can actually serve the population centres of Devon and avoid the operational problems of reversing at Plymouth and Exeter.

 

 

I'm intrigued with the 'operational problems' mentioned many times in this discussion. What is so onerous in changing ends which wouldn't be necessary on the Southern line? Many trains terminate at Plymouth which would leave only those going onto Cornwall needing a end swap. They do it many times a day on the Gunnislake line!

 

Finding a path may be the consideration one would suppose but surely that is not unattainable in this day and age. As one not in the know, it would be interesting to know the reasons why not.

 

Brian.

The time required to changing ends and duplicate mileage between Cowley Bridge Jct and Exeter St Davids and between Plymouth North Road and St Budeaux Junction isn't an issue if the Okehampton line is being used in an emergency by through trains to London and the North, but it would be an issue for any TOC, if the Okehampton route was the main line and all normal timetabled trains had to run that way.

 

However,  the Okehampton route will never be the main line (even in the unlikely event that it's rebuilt to higher speed standards or even to double track), so the business case will have to support a year-round local service, which would then have to share the line with diverted expresses in the event that Dawlish was affected by storms.

 

None of that has to be a problem, but the hurdle will always remain that someone has to make a political decision to spend money that isn't supported by a robust business case (even if the original NR figures were found to be on the pessimistic side, the cost of reopening and maintaining the Okehampton line was always going to be considerable). AFAIC some of the hidden costs would be Meldon and Tavy Viaducts and certainly additional staffing costs to maintain the route into the future - you couldn't do it with the existing staffing levels.

 

As much as the enthusiast in me would like to see Okehampton to Tavistock reopened, I still think it would be the wrong decision, and that other options will eventually prevail.

[brianusa]

Thanks for the info. Just think though, trains on the old Southern route would still enter North Road in the correct direction! Pity about Friary!

 

Brian.

[southernman8]

Its good that we don't all agree!

 

My preferred option is to re-open via Okehampton (quicker and easier to achieve, cheaper and provides a largely separate route Exeter-Plymouth, offering opportunities for rail travel to new areas) but also look to plan and reserve an inland route by-passing Dawlish. The planning obstacles and costs for the construction this will be much more than via Okehampton.

 

I am also concerned that, although we all want to retain the beautiful coastal line, it may eventually be sacrificed as it will only serve local stations if the Dawlish by-pass line is built - especially if the sea levels rise, storms increase etc with the costs involved in keeping it open permanently (and electrified). OK the seawall will need to be maintained but is that cheaper to do with no railway to consider?

 

I do agree that the Okehampton line is unlikely ever to be the main line if in competition with the South Devon line and it is likely to be an ongoing extra cost based on local trains alone. However there are lines (Yeovil Junction to Yeovil Pen Mill for example) which serve no purpose at the present time other than as a diversionary route. No one is considering removing that additional expense. It may yet see timetabled trains....

[Gerald Henriksen]

My preferred option is to re-open via Okehampton (quicker and easier to achieve, cheaper and provides a largely separate route Exeter-Plymouth, offering opportunities for rail travel to new areas) but also look to plan and reserve an inland route by-passing Dawlish. The planning obstacles and costs for the construction this will be much more than via Okehampton.

But the point is that the Okehampton route is not significantly cheaper or easier to re-open.

 

Parts of the route have been built on, local communities/businesses are based on it being a walking trail, and having been unmaintained for rail for so long you would effectively be starting from scratch.

 

In addition to the significant amount of work to bring whats left of the line up to modern standards the Meldon Viaduct must be replaced - Network Rail in their report said it was unsuitable for any future rail use.  This means either pulling down the existing structure or acquiring the land to build a new one next to it.  

 

The cost estimate to return the Okehampton line to rail use is £1.1 billion.

 

As for your rail travel to new areas, not going to happen.  There would be no local service on the line - Devon has made it clear it would be too expensive - and the through trains would only run during a diversion because of the operational hassles of the reversals.

 

In the meantime, for £1.5 billion (or my mere £400 million more) you get a line that can and would be used year round, would continue to allow the major population areas of Devon to be served if the coastal route is temporarily closed, and most importantly wouldn't require any special operations (ie. reversals).

 

 

[Not Jeremy]

But the point is that the Okehampton route is not significantly cheaper or easier to re-open.

 

Parts of the route have been built on, local communities/businesses are based on it being a walking trail, and having been unmaintained for rail for so long you would effectively be starting from scratch.

 

In addition to the significant amount of work to bring whats left of the line up to modern standards the Meldon Viaduct must be replaced - Network Rail in their report said it was unsuitable for any future rail use.  This means either pulling down the existing structure or acquiring the land to build a new one next to it.  

 

The cost estimate to return the Okehampton line to rail use is £1.1 billion.

 

As for your rail travel to new areas, not going to happen.  There would be no local service on the line - Devon has made it clear it would be too expensive - and the through trains would only run during a diversion because of the operational hassles of the reversals.

 

In the meantime, for £1.5 billion (or my mere £400 million more) you get a line that can and would be used year round, would continue to allow the major population areas of Devon to be served if the coastal route is temporarily closed, and most importantly wouldn't require any special operations (ie. reversals).

 

 

OK, I promised myself I wouldn't get involved but I've finally worked it out.

 

It's a cunning plan isn't it?

 

You are passionately in favour of the Okehampton route but have cunningly decided that the best way to get it built is to dream up as many reasons as you can for not building it and then posting them up here to drive people crackers.

 

Do you know, I think you might just be on to something.

 

Please keep up the good work - I look forward to joining you on the first train over Meldon Viaduct!

[Glorious NSE]

As for your rail travel to new areas, not going to happen.  There would be no local service on the line - Devon has made it clear it would be too expensive - and the through trains would only run during a diversion because of the operational hassles of the reversals.

 

I don't believe that's the case.

 

Devon's comment that they wouldn't fund it needs to be read in the context of there not being a railway line there, and (at present) there not even being a proper service to Tavistock or Okehampton* either.

Keep in mind they have previously pushed development of, and committed to funding, Okehampton and Tavistock services (though on the latter the operating costs are coming from a developer for a limited time.)

 

The operating cost of running a through local service if the line did exist I don't believe will have even been worked out properly by anyone yet, and I think it's quite plausible that it would not be that much more costly than operating the two stub services that they are already at least considering, if not yet actively funding*.

 

Personally - i'd also love to see it happen, but if it does, it needs to be done in parallel rather than instead of a plan for the Dawlish area.

 

(*Barring Summer Sunday Okehampton services)

[Captain Kernow]

I do think that there would be a local service, because there would have to be some reason to have the line there. Given that Okehampton will never be the main line from Exeter to the West, something would have to use it to justify the huge expenditure.

 

Given the load limits for freight traffic between Plymouth and Newton Abbot (max 1000t trailing), then - depending on the severity of the gradients on the Okehampton route - there may be some easing of maximum freight loads, which would potentially be of great help to future freight possibilities to Plymouth and Cornwall. However, let's not kid ourselves that the Okehampton route was without inclines! Don't forget that just as Dawlish is prone to high seas, the Okehampton line was always prone to being blocked by heavy snow. Unfortunately there isn't enough freight traffic currently to justify it as a purely freight line (diversions excepted).

 

My personal view is that one way to fund or part-fund the Okehampton line and also to generate more local traffic is to encourage more housing development along its route (subject to what the National Park would permit). That after all is how the Tavistock scheme is being funded.

[locoholic]

Has anything definite been said about this subject in the last few days, or were local BBC just speculating?

[The Stationmaster]

I do think that there would be a local service, because there would have to be some reason to have the line there. Given that Okehampton will never be the main line from Exeter to the West, something would have to use it to justify the huge expenditure.

 

Given the load limits for freight traffic between Plymouth and Newton Abbot (max 1000t trailing), then - depending on the severity of the gradients on the Okehampton route - there may be some easing of maximum freight loads, which would potentially be of great help to future freight possibilities to Plymouth and Cornwall. However, let's not kid ourselves that the Okehampton route was without inclines! Don't forget that just as Dawlish is prone to high seas, the Okehampton line was always prone to being blocked by heavy snow. Unfortunately there isn't enough freight traffic currently to justify it as a purely freight line (diversions excepted).

 

My personal view is that one way to fund or part-fund the Okehampton line and also to generate more local traffic is to encourage more housing development along its route (subject to what the National Park would permit). That after all is how the Tavistock scheme is being funded.

The steepest gradient eastbound on the old Southern route is 4 - 5 miles of 1 in 73 climbing out of the Tamar Valley - which is somewhat better than the 1 in 42 climbing Hemerdon, but of course bridges would need to be suitable for freight axleloads.

[Gwiwer]

Okehampton is rather smaller than Tavistock and somewhat constrained by geography as to new development.  It is also likely to need an efficient bus feeder service to any future daily railway connection to Exeter as the station is some way from many residential areas and up a decent hill.  The disincentive (as society stands in 2014) is massive when one may simply step into ones' car and be on the 70mph A30 towards Exeter and beyond in as many minutes as it would take to reach the station.  There is little intermediate traffic potential not already well catered for.

 

Tavistock is a different matter.  The reopening is, we are told, part-funded by and as a condition of residential growth.  Also in a town constrained by geography but with some room in one direction to build new.  It's a larger town now and there is some potential for intermediate traffic.

 

There isn't anywhere in between worth providing a station for unless the National Park were to support Lydford as a destination.  

 

Okehampton - Exeter barely supports one bus an hour on a commercial basis while Tavistock - Plymouth supports several; arguably three but with the present competition there are more than that.  The Okehampton - Tavistock bus requires Devon County Council support as it cannot be run commercially and is usually very lightly loaded indeed (as in conveys 0 to 3 passengers) despite being the only public transport connection across the gap.

 

I cannot see the need to pursue the north Dartmoor option as a stand-alone route neither can I see it being viable as a freight-only or stand-by route.  It would require massive revenue support, most freight would suffer significant time penalties by needing to run from / to or (for Cornish traffic) reverse at Tavistock Junction meaning a double-transit of Plymouth station, increased track occupancy and charges and possibly congestion.  Reversal in Riverside Yard would still take time but be less of a track capacity issue.

 

We already know an all-new Meldon viaduct would be required and probably major rebuilds of other structures.  To reopen the through route also requires relocation of Tavistock Council's offices.  It looks so tempting on a map just as did Airdrie - Bathgate for very many years.  While the latter has finally reopened it is under a different regime and meets demonstrated local needs with a supporting business case.  That has not been proven for Okehampton - Tavistock.  While I hope to see a daily service between Exeter and Okehampton once more I suspect the case for even that much is tenuous.  I don't expect the missing link to be rebuilt in my lifetime but I do anticipate the debate about Dawlish alternatives to rumble on and on.

[Glorious NSE]

Okehampton is rather smaller than Tavistock and somewhat constrained by geography as to new development.  It is also likely to need an efficient bus feeder service to any future daily railway connection to Exeter as the station is some way from many residential areas and up a decent hill.  The disincentive (as society stands in 2014) is massive when one may simply step into ones' car and be on the 70mph A30 towards Exeter and beyond in as many minutes as it would take to reach the station.  There is little intermediate traffic potential not already well catered for.

 

 

When DCC were to fund DCR to run a regular service from Okehampton, it was to include a new "parkway" station at the East end of town - at the time that site was just a field next to an industrial estate, now the fields round there are filling up with new houses (a friend of mine has recently moved there!)

 

Whilst the A30 will get you to the outskirts of Exeter quicker than a train will, you will lose all that advantage queueing up Alphington Rd and searching for (followed by paying through the nose for) a parking space - for anyone commuting to Exeter City Centre I can see a big advantage to a train journey.

 

And if it were to be an extension of the SWT Waterloo services, I could also see it being worth the while marketing that as a railhead for anyone beyond Okehampton headed to London.

 

I would strongly suspect that the local bus would be seen rather differently, as even the "fast" ones end up pulling off the A30 to service various villages on the way...

 

The Okehampton - Tavistock bus requires Devon County Council support as it cannot be run commercially and is usually very lightly loaded indeed (as in conveys 0 to 3 passengers) despite being the only public transport connection across the gap. 

I'm not convinced the point of reconnecting this would be just to let folk in Tavistock get to Okehampton and V.V. though...in just the same way that I suspect Airdrie to Bathgate was never really about the good people of Drumgelloch being able to get to Caldercruix!

 

How big is the rail market from Tavistock to Exeter, or Tavistock to London, or Okehampton to Plymouth?

 

To be honest, i'd bet nobody really knows as you haven't been able to do it for 40 odd years, during which time the love affair with the car has been at least partially soured by congestion and high costs and every single place involved has grown almost beyond recognition...

 

 most freight would suffer significant time penalties by needing to run from / to or (for Cornish traffic) reverse at Tavistock Junction meaning a double-transit of Plymouth station,

So far, none of the freight in or out of the South West is particularly time sensitive. And there isn't much of a capacity crunch in Plymouth (sadly) at present. In fact, there's usually plenty of empty platforms it could run round in at Plymouth station, length permitting!

[Siberian Snooper]

To make Okehampton Station useful, it would need a local bus connection from the station to the town centre, whether that be the exsisting station or a park and ride station, and it will need to connect with all the trains. That hill was bad enough when I was a youngster it would be nearly murder now.

 

And Tavistock is no better.

 

 

Edit to add Tavi.

[edcayton]

Can I suggest that if the Okehampton-Plymouth route was served by extending the Waterloo-Exeter services this would eliminate reversing at Exeter, and probably no need to continue these trains into the Duchy. In the other direction commuters would be carried up the hill from St Davids to Central (a fair hike) and end up in a better location.

 

Ed

[Godfrey Glyn]

There does seem to be more positive outlook for the line down from Waterloo and I was impressed recently when catching a morning train from Axminster how many people, particularly students, were using the line to get into Exeter. Can't help feeling that the restoration of the line around the north of Dartmoor would, given time, generate a healthy usage, whilst at the same time providing a diversion route in the event of another problem at Dawlish. 

[roundhouse]

To make Okehampton Station useful, it would need a local bus connection from the station to the town centre, whether that be the exsisting station or a park and ride station, and it will need to connect with all the trains. That hill was bad enough when I was a youngster it would be nearly murder now.

 

And Tavistock is no better.

 

 

Edit to add Tavi.

Okehampton needs a funicular from town to station!!

[Siberian Snooper]

Okehampton needs a funicular from town to station!!

And so Will Tavi if they re-open the old station.

[Kris]

Apparently the David Cameron likes the Tavistock route as an option. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-31042325

[brianusa]

That's it then; all the hot air for nowt!  Trust the worthy Labour councillor at Plymouth to get it all wrong!

 

Brian.

[bgman]

Apparently the David Cameron likes the Tavistock route as an option. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-31042325

I watched it last night, despite Justin Leigh pushing the issue I wasn't convinced with Cameron's sincerity. Excuse the pun but I'm convinced he's on his own gravy train to get the votes...... Nothing changes!

[chrisf]

So we assume that Spotlight got it right and that the PM knows what he is talking about ...

 

Chris