Dawlish Diversion Route

[phil-b259]

The plans for one of the 2 sections are well advanced, the other significantly longer section is still many years behind, and only at the "we think we'd like to do it stage".

 

I stand corrected.

 

However the principle that monies need to be focus on where they bring the best return / pressures are most acute still stands and unfortunately London scores highly in both catagories thus resulting in more spending there than other parts of the country. Short of moving the capital (and all its employers) to Birmingham, Manchester, Newcastle or Plymouth there is not a lot that can be done to change the situation.

[locoholic]

Please don't start playing the regional inequality card. You may not like it but it's a fact that London has a far grater population than anywhere in Cornwall

 

The transport spending figure is per person - it's got nothing to do with overall population. Your argument would indicate that cities are an expensive way of populating a country. To stop that situation getting worse, therefore, money should be spent outside the capital so people find it more practical and attractive to live away from the expensive, choked, highly subsidised metropolis. People in London also don't need to have the expense of running a car and paying massive amounts to the Exchequer in Fuel Duty (which doesn't even go down when the price of petrol falls). So there's plenty that can be done to change the situation, it's just that London gets far more than its fair share of transport spending, and there's not much left for the rest of us.

[roundhouse]

It might be higher spending spending per capita in Lindon area but many people in rural areas do not have to commute in to one central point such as London where roads cannot be improved much more than they are.

 

I would love to be able to move away from London and see the railways reopened in rural areas especially in the South West.

 

Also add to the fact that if people moved en mass to a rural area it would send house prices rocketing. Upsetting the locals and if developers were given permission to build thousands of houses in rural areas then you can imagine the outcry from local residents about it ruining their community.

 

I still hope more rail improvements can be carried out in rural areas as that gives us more opportunity to visit such places as we much prefer to travel by train for pleasure than driving.

[RJS1977]

Please don't start playing the regional inequality card. You may not like it but it's a fact that London has a far grater population than anywhere in Cornwall and recently released figures show its population is the highest it's been since 1908. Such a large population requires a large ammount of support - in fact because of the ability to improve the roads significantly does not exist (compared to Cornwall where plans to dual the remaining bits of single carriageway on the A30 between Temple and Cambourne are well advanced) public transport is far more intensively used.

 

And remember it's not just the population of an area, but the number of visitors (be they business or tourists) and through passengers - both of which, depite Devon & Cornwall's tourist trade,I suspect would be much bigger for London than the South West. Just the fact that London has a dozen or so separate railway termini with cross-town passengers going from one to another requires a lot of spending on public transport, for people who neither live in London or are going to London!

[southernman8]

Au contraire!  In previous comment on this thread a lot was made about reversals and the time and inconvenience they made! 

 

Brian.

During the recent diversions of HSTs via Yeovil I see (according to Real Time Trains) that an allowance of 5 or 6 minutes at Exeter St Davids for the reversal is built in. The fastest actual I can see is 3 minutes (by one of the unfortunately much delayed HSTs due to the Hungerford incident). The standard allowance is really not much longer than the booked station stop!

[The Stationmaster]

During the recent diversions of HSTs via Yeovil I see (according to Real Time Trains) that an allowance of 5 or 6 minutes at Exeter St Davids for the reversal is built in. The fastest actual I can see is 3 minutes (by one of the unfortunately much delayed HSTs due to the Hungerford incident). The standard allowance is really not much longer than the booked station stop!

Difference is that when you are timing it you have to use the agreed allowances and not the 'best of what can be achieved when everything goes right' otherwise you stand a good chance of producing timetables which don't work.  Plus of course there's potential need to take account of clearance times and margins due to other trains being about and NR won't accept timings if they don't comply with Rules of The Plan. 

[Gwiwer]

As with so many other situations what can be done on the ground on a good day with the wind in the right direction isn't necessarily what's been agreed and signed off by all concerned.   You can reverse an HST in two minutes at St. Davids and at Plymouth if there's a relief driver and they are in the right spot and ready but they need to confirm with the inbound driver that all is well before taking over.  That adds time.  

 

Anyone who has observed workings at those stations will be aware that what ever the public timetable says it is not always possible to stop, have passengers light, have more board and close doors within two minutes.  Five is often closer to the mark at Plymouth where catering stores also have to be loaded / unloaded.  

 

Not all platform approaches / exists have the same speed limits.  On today's railway a train directed to a platform it isn't scheduled into might lose a minute or two in negotiating pointwork and speed limits.  

 

Having had plenty of time at Exeter St. Davids last summer to watch proceedings while waiting for trains I wouldn't want to have to reverse trains there in under 5 minutes.  

 

In terms of an LSWR rout diversion two reversals adds perhaps another 10 minutes to a journey.  Double-running between Cowley Bridge - St. Davids and St. Budeaux - Plymouth (allowing for the lower speeds at both ends when taking the LSWR routes) would surely add another 15.  Allow for a slightly longer journey time via the inland route compared with the coast even if it were rebuilt for, say 80mph running where possible, and another 15 minutes can be added.  

 

We have now extended our headline 3-hour London - Plymouth timing to something nearer 4 hours.  With major impacts for staffing and rolling stock utilisation and the potential to provide the same service level as now.  At least two extra HST sets would be required and at least two more Voyagers if XC also diverted instead of terminating at Exeter as they do now in wild weather.

[The Stationmaster]

The real detailed time differences are quoted in Post 266 although I could not, for obvious reasons, include any allowance for margins or junction clearance times as these could vary between nothing and as much as 4-6 minutes depending on the detail of the timetable as it is put together.

[edcayton]

I don't think anyone is talking about HST's or anything else using the route all the time. Certainly, my idea is to extend the LSW line services from Exeter (no reversal) to Plymouth (terminate). Having this route would:

 

1) give a local service between Exeter and Plymouth serving Okehampton etc,

 

2) give a true "alternative service" which would hopefully provide competition to the customer's benefit (see Chiltern etc) and

 

3)most importantly prevent Plymouth and Cornwall being totally devoid of trains the nest time Dawlish falls into the sea.

 

Yes, the "Dawlish Bypass" would address point 3 and allow an improvement in journey times, but again looking at Chiltern services is that what people want?

 

Ed

[Captain Kernow]

I don't think anyone is talking about HST's or anything else using the route all the time. Certainly, my idea is to extend the LSW line services from Exeter (no reversal) to Plymouth (terminate). Having this route would:

 

1) give a local service between Exeter and Plymouth serving Okehampton etc,

 

2) give a true "alternative service" which would hopefully provide competition to the customer's benefit (see Chiltern etc) and

 

I do wonder where the budget to pay for a loss-making local service is going to come from. Given that for most of the year virtually everyone is going to travel via the quicker South Devon route, (also the route which will almost certainly have the more frequent service as well, with both FGW and XC running trains that way), you have to conclude that those that choose to travel via Okehampton will do so for a purely local journey and/or if the fares are cheaper - neither of which bodes well for making a profit. 

 

I doubt that SWT would wish to extend to Plymouth unless an attractive 'deal' was done with the DfT, but where also would the rolling stock come from?

[Captain Kernow]

Difference is that when you are timing it you have to use the agreed allowances and not the 'best of what can be achieved when everything goes right' otherwise you stand a good chance of producing timetables which don't work.  Plus of course there's potential need to take account of clearance times and margins due to other trains being about and NR won't accept timings if they don't comply with Rules of The Plan. 

Quite right, Mike, and there are standard reversal timings that will have been agreed between the TOC concerned and the unions/staff reps, and they would not be allowed to reduce these.

[The Stationmaster]

Quite right, Mike, and there are standard reversal timings that will have been agreed between the TOC concerned and the unions/staff reps, and they would not be allowed to reduce these.

And as quoted in Post 266 Cap'n (those are the real timings taken from the source which the TOC has to use

[Glorious NSE]

but where also would the rolling stock come from?

I don't see that as the hard sell (the hard sell to my mind is the financial one!) - as even if a decision was made tomorrow to open the Okehampton route I think we'd be talking at least 2020 before it existed as a working railway, in which case finding some 158s to bolster SWT's 159 fleet (assuming a radically different path for that fleet hasn't happened by then) via electrification cascades shouldn't be an impossible ask.

[corneliuslundie]

Just put a pound in the pot for each word on this thread and you'll have enough to run the service for years!

 

Hat, coat, roller skates . . . 

[brianusa]

Just put a pound in the pot for each word on this thread and you'll have enough to run the service for years!

 

Hat, coat, roller skates . . .

This is a West Country affair and those out of the region don't really comprehend the situation. After all these years, believe it or not, the old SR v GW still exists at least with the dreamers amongst us. But dreams aren't reality and the reality is that all this will never happen which may be true if we listen to those who know what's going on. But according to the latest HR, there still some interest, but at what level.

 

The best that can be hoped for is the eventual Tavistock extension.

 

Brian

[Gwiwer]

"Finding 158s" by 2020 may not be as easily accomplished as all that.  While they aren't in the first flush of youth and should have 15 years left in them there would likely be a few takers up north should nay become available to boost capacity.  Scotrail for example finds their trains on some routes are woefully overloaded (sometimes on a seasonal basis) and might stake a claim if they could get additional rolling stock for all routes into / out of Inverness.

 

Back to Okehampton.  The case has already effectively bee put to bed in this thread for a stand-alone local service.  For whom?  Okehampton doesn't have Devon County Council support for a daily service to Exeter - if it did such could have been reinstated long ago.  The former intermediate stations over that section were remote from any significant settlements though Sampford Courtney might be worth inclusion as a request stop.  

 

There is no demonstrated need to provide rail transport over the Okehampton - Tavistock section.  The local bus could be replaced by a taxi (except at school times) and still have empty seats.  Its existence is under threat.  That does not bode well for a reinstated railway.

 

Tavistock to Bere Alston we know is on the cards as it has both some funding, a planning requirement and the support of Devon County and Plymouth City Councils.

[The Stationmaster]

 

Tavistock to Bere Alston we know is on the cards as it has both some funding, a planning requirement and the support of Devon County and Plymouth City Councils.

And is maybe an example of the way these things work as I can remember that getting on for 25 years ago estimates were being prepared for various interested parties for the reinstatement of Bere Alston to Tavistock including signalling plans (they were mainly for alterations between St Budeaux and Bere Alston).  I know things change in traffic patterns, local govt attitudes, central Govt funding etc, etc and so on but this one has been thought about long & hard for a long time, and previously costed probably more than once, and it is still to get off the ground although I think it probably will eventually happen.  (I hate to say it but detailed planning and costing work was being done on this long before any similar work was done for reinstating passenger train services up the Western Valleys to Ebbw Vale.)

 

The point being that compared with the long standing attention given to, and work done on, potentially reconnecting Tavistock to the rail network beyond there has been given little or no real thought or had proper costing work done - no doubt for the simple reason that nobody thought it was worth the effort or cost (because all the work which has been done for Tavistock has had to be funded by someone).

[Joseph_Pestell]

You make an interesting point, Mike, about Ebbw Vale having happened in a much shorter timeframe. Combined effects I would suggest of recognised severe deprivation (not the case for Tavistock) and devolved government.

 

Once one gets the capital costs out of the way (no small matter with Meldon to consider), would it cost much more to run Plymouth to Exeter (possibly as an extension to the existing London service) than it would to run separate Exeter-Okehampton and Tavistock-Plymouth services.

 

I accept the point about near-empty buses between Okehampton and Tavistock but, as someone who used to travel to Tavistock from the South-East, I could see that a through service might generate a lot of new business.

[Gwiwer]

Adding more to the debate I have just learned that the main Exeter - Okehampton bus link, Western Greyhound's 510, is about to be withdrawn as uneconomic and will only be partially replaced by a Devon CC supported service.  Stagecoach runs a few commercial journeys over the route.  Another nail in the coffin and / or an indictment of the relative wealth of the region and high percentage car ownership?

 

Edit - having looked into this further - the 510 has already been withdrawn as of 21st February and has only partially been replaced by Stagecoach route 6A.  There are fewer trips overall between Okehampton and Exeter and very few continue to Launceston.  Incidental to the topic this means that Western Greyhound buses no longer serve any destination outside Cornwall where until recently they were frequent visitors to both Exeter and Plymouth.

[Captain Kernow]

Once one gets the capital costs out of the way (no small matter with Meldon to consider), would it cost much more to run Plymouth to Exeter (possibly as an extension to the existing London service) than it would to run separate Exeter-Okehampton and Tavistock-Plymouth services.

 

 

I think the case for even retaining a bus service between Exeter and Okehampton is rapidly shrinking, so that just leaves Tavistock to Plymouth. In answer to the overall point, I think the answer is yes, it would cost a lot more to run a service all the way between Plymouth, Okehampton and Exeter.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think the case for even retaining a bus service between Exeter and Okehampton is rapidly shrinking, so that just leaves Tavistock to Plymouth. In answer to the overall point, I think the answer is yes, it would cost a lot more to run a service all the way between Plymouth, Okehampton and Exeter.

 

The real question is whether the additional revenue gained by having a through service (DMU rather than HST/SET) would  be greater than the additional costs.

 

I am always a bit sceptical about estimating the demand for rail services on ridership figures for buses. A lot of people (SWMBO included) are perfectly happy to travel by train but would not be seen dead on a bus.

 

Other than the occasional visit to London, it's a long time since I last travelled on a bus for that matter and we have a pretty good local service by rural standards.

[The Stationmaster]

The real question is whether the additional revenue gained by having a through service (DMU rather than HST/SET) would  be greater than the additional costs.

 

I am always a bit sceptical about estimating the demand for rail services on ridership figures for buses. A lot of people (SWMBO included) are perfectly happy to travel by train but would not be seen dead on a bus.

 

Other than the occasional visit to London, it's a long time since I last travelled on a bus for that matter and we have a pretty good local service by rural standards.

Regional Railways in BR days actually did it the opposite way round - they looked at potential riderships on various sections of route and then tried to see if they could service them economically by what in effect was a linked service but in reality was a through train.  Thus establishing some potentially useful through routes on the back of local travel.  So for example one of the last - which never came to pass - was Swindon - Peterborough which was gradually being developed around perceived and researched demand along what was turned into that route.

 

Thus if this model was applied round the north of Dartmoor it would be built around, say Plymouth -Tavistock, Tavistock - Okehampton, and Okehampton - Exeter in order to build up a part of the route.  Then the emerging economics and review of cost vs opportunities might take it forward to Exeter - Axminster and Axminster - Yeovil (Pen Mill).  If you look at that sort of model as a basis for developing a service built around potential local demand you can see the holes in it as far as the northern circuit of Dartmoor is concerned with minimal demand for local travel and - as reported above - existing parallel 'bus routes being reduced or cut out - it would simply become another route looking for a slice of an unchanged size of revenue/cost support cake in Devon.

[GordonC]

Please don't start playing the regional inequality card. You may not like it but it's a fact that London has a far grater population than anywhere in Cornwall and recently released figures show its population is the highest it's been since 1908. Such a large population requires a large ammount of support

 

Its not just the greater population that London benefits from, its increased spending per head. Have a look at the breakdown of transport spending per head in the various regions

 

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/aug/07/london-gets-24-times-as-much-infrastructure-north-east-england

 

... oh look ... what a surprise!! ... Greedy London gets far more than its fair share and indeed more than the rest of the country added together

[The Stationmaster]

Its not just the greater population that London benefits from, its increased spending per head. Have a look at the breakdown of transport spending per head in the various regions

 

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/aug/07/london-gets-24-times-as-much-infrastructure-north-east-england

 

... oh look ... what a surprise!! ... Greedy London gets far more than its fair share and indeed more than the rest of the country added together

I'm not at all sure what that has to do with the subject of a diversionary route around the coastline at Dawlish - if you are going to argue from that sort of viewpoint it would probably be a good idea to chuck in the Barnett Formula and start talking abut transport infrastructure spending in Scotland compared with much of England.  But then this always happens when you start comparing apples with oranges and looking at comparative costs for wildly different sorts of projects - and this is not the thread for that sort of debate in my view.

[locoholic]

 this is not the thread for that sort of debate in my view.

 

Well, it is all about money, really, isn't it? A few banker's bonuses and Premier League footballers would easily pay for the 13 miles from Meldon to Tavistock to be reopened. Add a few noughts and you could have a proper 150mph line from Exeter to Plymouth via Newton Abbot, well out of the reach of high tides.

 

Instead, any kind of truly fit-for-purpose update to the rail system for SW England is just written off as being too expensive to justify for the few thousand unsophisticated people who inhabit the region, and so they'll just have to manage with what Brunel cooked up 160 years ago, or buy a car.

 

And meanwhile, this thread can fill up with discussions about exactly how long it takes to reverse a train at Exeter St Davids, which I would argue is also pretty peripheral.