Dawlish Diversion Route

[Captain Kernow]

Why?  The car takes me from where I am to where I want to be, neither of which is likely to be the railway station.

 

Ed

Ed - this is purely to compare the relative journey times from Plymouth to Tiverton Parkway railway stations, one by train, the other by replacement bus.

 

If you live in Plymouth and wish to visit the Tiverton Parkway area (eg. a friend or relative in the Sampford Peverell area), and don't want to travel on the train, then the car is certainly the most likely option to take, but it wouldn't be a fair comparason, because the disrupted passengers who would have caught the train (but now have to be on the replacement bus) won't be starting their journey from your front door (unless there's something you're not telling us), and in all probability won't want to finish up at your friend or relative's house in Sampford Peverell.

[RJS1977]

Let's not forget that in order to achieve the quick time by road, the A38 had to be built on two railway trackbeds - one of which could otherwise have been used for a Dawlish diversion!

 

Just out of interest, what are the linespeeds between Tiverton Parkway & Plymouth? i.e. is it the line speed or the number of stops en route that makes the train slower than the car?

[Kris]

Let's not forget that in order to achieve the quick time by road, the A38 had to be built on two railway trackbeds - one of which could otherwise have been used for a Dawlish diversion!

 

Just out of interest, what are the linespeeds between Tiverton Parkway & Plymouth? i.e. is it the line speed or the number of stops en route that makes the train slower than the car?

Line speed is low beyond Exeter, however what gives the car a great advantage is that the A38 is a far more direct route than the railway line. 

[brianusa]

From where I live (South Essex) Lands End is as far away as Edinburgh.

[/quote

 

Its a even further from where I live!

 

Brian

[southernman8]

Line speed is low beyond Exeter, however what gives the car a great advantage is that the A38 is a far more direct route than the railway line.

What gives Rail a great advantage (at Exeter in particular and Plymouth)is that the train takes people to the City Centre rather than be sat in a car in a traffic jam! And may for some be cheaper. Of course the car also wins on some occasions

[Gwiwer]

Let's not forget that in order to achieve the quick time by road, the A38 had to be built on two railway trackbeds - one of which could otherwise have been used for a Dawlish diversion!

 

Just out of interest, what are the linespeeds between Tiverton Parkway & Plymouth? i.e. is it the line speed or the number of stops en route that makes the train slower than the car?

 

Let's also not forget that between Tiverton and Exeter road and railway are effectively parallel.  Beyond Exeter that ceases to be the case.  Try driving from Exeter to Plymouth via Dawlish, Newton Abbot and Totnes in the hour.  You'd be lucky to reach Dainton Summit in that time some days!  

 

There have always been more roads than railways giving the private motorist more freedom of route choice.  It's true that roads have been built over the course of redundant railways in Devon notably the Tiverton - Barnstaple route and section of the A38.  For many trips car will be quicker.  For personal convenience it is hard to beat.  But for ease, comfort and safety rail is likely to win every time and will do so on trip time in many cases too.

 

The line speeds west of Exeter are dictated by numerous factors including sharp curvature and some of the steepest gradients in the country in order to have the original line built to serve all the major centres of population.  Adding in stop time does lower the average speed of trains but does not materially affect line speed unless running through the loops at Dawlish Warren or Totnes,

 

By contrast the road limit is often 70mph but that doesn't mean it is always safe to travel at that speed.  Road speed limits are set differently and "advisory" rather than mandatory limits posted approaching sharp bends or other hazards.  it is, for example, permitted to come haring down Telegraph Hill at 70mph on the grounds that the national speed limit applies for a divided rural road.  That doesn't make it safe to do so especially in wet or slippery conditions.  If trains were to descend Dainton or Hemerdon at 125mph I leave to the imagination what sort of carnage would result.

 

In terms of a Dawlish diversion it is established that the road route between Tiverton Parkway and Plymouth is the quickest option currently and that trains can usually run on to terminate at Exeter with local buses then serving points beyond for those who need them.  If there were a suitable "Parkway" station at Laira then no doubt the transfer would be effected even quicker at that point since buses would not have to fight their way into Plymouth with everything else on what is always a congested route whether one uses the Parkway and approaches the station from Milehouse or Mutley or comes in via the waterside route and the city centre.

[Captain Kernow]

What gives Rail a great advantage (at Exeter in particular and Plymouth)is that the train takes people to the City Centre rather than be sat in a car in a traffic jam! And may for some be cheaper. Of course the car also wins on some occasions

That is extremely true if you were sitting in the now extensive traffic jams that blight Exeter in the peaks (and often outside of these as well). This makes catching the train into the city centre (or even with the 5 - 10 min walk up from St Davids) a no-brainer, unless you need the car for something else. It is also one of the relatively few factors in favour of any kind of service from Okehampton, as the roads in from the A30 are some of the worst for congestion, as you also get the M5 and some of the A38 traffic joining.

 

[edcayton]

That is extremely true if you were sitting in the now extensive traffic jams that blight Exeter in the peaks (and often outside of these as well). This makes catching the train into the city centre (or even with the 5 - 10 min walk up from St Davids) a no-brainer, unless you need the car for something else. It is also one of the relatively few factors in favour of any kind of service from Okehampton, as the roads in from the A30 are some of the worst for congestion, as you also get the M5 and some of the A38 traffic joining.

 

Which is why I suggested these services running to Central and beyond. That hill is a lot more than a ten-minute walk for me these days!

 

Ed

[RJS1977]

Looking on Google Maps, there's not a great deal of difference in times quoted from Exeter to Plymouth via A38 or by rail.

 

Google quotes 55 minutes by A38, 57-62 minutes by train (presumably depending on which train).

 

The difference is less than the time lost by slowing down,stopping and speeding up from a single station.

[locoholic]

The line speeds west of Exeter are dictated by numerous factors including sharp curvature and some of the steepest gradients in the country in order to have the original line built to serve all the major centres of population. 

 

Surely the curvature and gradients are the legacy of Brunel's misguided attempt to use the Atmospheric propulsion system, thus saving money by not having to build a nicely aligned route like he did from London to Bristol, with lots of engineering work? Unless something is done to straighten out the current route, rail travel to the West Country is going to become increasingly marginalised and uncompetitive, because the road system is being progressively improved, while the trains are stuck with a 19th century route. The problem at Dawlish should be seen in that context.

[Garry Morris]

Is there a date when the govt will publish their plans for an all weather rail route to the Southwest?

[brianusa]

You know its going to take ages yet!

 

Brian.

[Gwiwer]

Is there a date when the govt will publish their plans for an all weather rail route to the Southwest?

 

Some time after the new rolling stock is in service and significant, very costly to overcome, gauging issues for that have suddenly been found on the Okehampton route.  

[locoholic]

Is there a date when the govt will publish their plans for an all weather rail route to the Southwest?

 

It will be just after a massive storm has flattened the long grass that the plans have been kicked into, especially if the same storm causes damage on the sea wall.

[Siberian Snooper]

Is there a date when the govt will publish their plans for an all weather rail route to the Southwest?

The plans will be published about a fortnight after hell freezes over, the election has been and gone and the wall at Dawlish is nearly finished. The politicians have now turned their attention to other things.

[roundhouse]

With the electrification projects shelved then I think this may also be a similar case.

 

Our local MP was very vocal about our services but since the election what do to you reckon he has said?

[Christopher125]

With the electrification projects shelved then I think this may also be a similar case.

For now there's nothing to shelve - even if they do decide to pursue an alternative route that will surely be a long-term aim rather than a project they start work on straight away.

 

The most recent news appears to be about a draft feasibility study going out to consultation next month: Report on the future of Plymouth's railway will be published in September

 

Plymouth MP Gary Streeter says that

 

"The draft report will include a bit more detail about what is going to be done. That will be consulted upon and the final plan will be next year. The big thing then is to get it adopted by Network Rail as part of its control period six (CP6) spending programme from 2019 onwards.

 

What we're looking at is a 20 year vision, so quite a lot will be done in CP6, such as reducing journey times between Paddington and Penzance. But we are talking about something we can work towards over the next five to 20 years so some of it will be in later periods."

[burgundy]

This link below may be of interest. It is a study, sponsored by the Council for the Protection of Rural England (CPRE), making a case for the reinstatement of the old LSWR line to Plymouth via Tavistock published earlier this year.

 

http://www.cpre.org.uk/resources/transport/rail/item/3986-rural-reconnections?highlight=WyJ0YXZpc3RvY2siXQ==

 

Best wishes 

Eric 

[brianusa]

Yet another study albeit a very comprehensive one but one that does not offer much more than has been studied already.  It just is longer!  The same obstacles remain, environment, money, protests and as it envisages any implementation between 2020/2024, many more problems that might occur.  None of these studies come close to the financial aspect but  like this one, cavalierly declare if Meldon can't be fixed, build a new one!  That alone could give most the vapours!

It would appear to have a large support but again, considering the age of the locals according to the report, things could change as they catch their final train and others come aboard.

 

Brian.

[southernman8]

Thanks for the link - interesting reading. As the report says there are significant advantages for the population living to the north/west of Dartmoor in addition to the resilience factors well discussed already.

 

Taking into account the (in comparison at least) modest costs, relative ease of construction and timescales possible, the Northern Route must be a no-brainer for re-instatement. It seems to me that everyone will be a winner. With the backing of several prominent organisations and the availability of the large majority of the old trackbed, the likelihood of serious objections if much reduced. Sure there are obstacles to overcome. Construction of a 'new' Meldon Viaduct may, in the end, be the way ahead if the costs of strengthening the 'old' are significant. However, I will read the necessary inspections with great interest as the last use of one of the viaducts was as a headshunt for heavily loaded ballast trains from the nearby quarry - maybe the worries may prove unfounded?

 

I just hope that words translate into action!

[The Stationmaster]

Yet another study albeit a very comprehensive one but one that does not offer much more than has been studied already.  It just is longer!  The same obstacles remain, environment, money, protests and as it envisages any implementation between 2020/2024, many more problems that might occur.  None of these studies come close to the financial aspect but  like this one, cavalierly declare if Meldon can't be fixed, build a new one!  That alone could give most the vapours!

It would appear to have a large support but again, considering the age of the locals according to the report, things could change as they catch their final train and others come aboard.

 

Brian.

I've now had a read of it and I think you've got it spot on Brian - most engineering considerations are brushed aside with only Meldon viaduct getting a real mention - and a lot of the ideas seem to be based on limited understanding of various factors such as the flexibility of infrastructure and crew knowledge, plus train resources, needed for diversions.  So yes - very much the same old arguments for rebuilding it with most of the practical consequences of doing so glossed over or downplayed.

 

In present circumstances it hardly surprising that older people are the most supportive group, the younger ones have in reality lost nothing and have grown up in a  different age.

 

I hope we will see something recreated to Tavistock but it might be salutary to note that it is now nearly 25 years since I first saw the signalling proposals for such a reopening and they were based on 'a solid intention to progress the scheme' - money is a lot tighter today than it was back then. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Although reopening the PDSW route would achieve resilience (at least some resilience) in the train service to  Plymouth and Cornwall, it still leaves the problem that journeys from Plymouth to London are very long - taking longer than London - Edinburgh. So rail is unattractive to the Plymouth business community. I have friends in Bodmin who always use air from Newquay rather than the train.

 

If one wants to change that (and the economic case would be hard to make), it requires a completely new line to be built at enormous expense. I can also imagine the howls of indignation about large cuttings and tunnel mouths in a National Park.

[Zomboid]

As someone who considers the Southern to be better in every way than that branch line to south wales from Reading, i would much prefer to see the Tavistock route reopened. But in the real world, the better solution would probably be an inland route, so that trains between Exeter and Plymouth can take a shorter route at speeds of at least 100mph. If journey times to Cornwall are important, bypass just about everywhere between the two, and then i would imagine London to Plymouth could get under 2 1/2 hours.

[Captain Kernow]

 

I just hope that words translate into action!

Apparently the whole notion has not yet been dismissed officially.

[astropsidings]

Now if a chunk of the £1billion/month the UK spends on "overseas aid" could be used for infrastructure projects just imagine the benefits to the economy overall, and the benefits to those in various parts of the country who continue to be disadvantaged by the shortsightedness of our politicians in the '60's. 3 weeks worth might reconnect Hawick, and the surrounding area to both Carlisle and Edinburgh. Then there's the reopening of the line to Ringwood. And Oakhampton, and Tavistock...., and connecting North Wales to South Wales....

 

Ian