Basic British N Scale questions

[GreenDiesel]

I'm now considering N scale as an alternative to 00 (as per one of my other threads, I was looking at TT but it might be too hard & frustrating finding TT products in Canada). The space in our house is very confined and will probably become even more limited in the future.

 

I have several basic questions regarding British N scale:

 

-- it sounds as if British N scale has the same scale "problems" as 00, in that the British locos and rolling stock are made slightly larger than they should be (so that the gauge/wheel spacing is too narrow for the scale). I always thought N scale was free from these problems but it sounds as if the same thing happened to N as it did with 00? 

         So, 2mm Finescale (as an alternative to N) would be the equivalent to P4 or EM (as an alternative to 00).

-- how do the couplers of N scale work ... are shunting operations easy to do and does the rolling stock uncouple easily?

-- the main N scale manufacturers appear to be Graham Farish (owned by Bachmann) and Dapol. Are there others? ... I don't believe Hornby has an N scale line although they do have N scale buildings.

 

I'll probably have a few other questions as I think about this further. Only doing research right now (and that might be only as far as I get!).

 

Thanks,

Rob

[Black Sheep]

Peco also make rolling stock and used to produce locos. Think they have just one GWR loco in production.

 

Lima and Minitrix used to make British outline but this was a fair few years ago now.

 

Peco make a magnetic uncoupling kit to upgrade standard couplings but advise it as not suitable for couplings that have a spring fitted.

 

Dapol have produced a knuckle coupling that clips into NEM pockets, however no PECO wagons have NEM pockets, Farish's more recent releases do but older items still in production don't

 

Dapol sell a conversion kit which took me 40 mins to fit to a PECO wagon cutting and filing the coupling pockets off to fit the Dapol kit.

 

I've not got my Dapol couplings working quite as they should but others on here are happy with them, apparently adding a bit of weight works, same with the standard wagons.

 

In the realm of 2mm finescale the DG coupling is well regarded, others use mini Alex jacksons or even scale 3 link couplings.

[Rabs]

Hi Rob, to go through your questions one at a time:

 

-- it sounds as if British N scale has the same scale "problems" as 00, in that the British locos and rolling stock are made slightly larger than they should be (so that the gauge/wheel spacing is too narrow for the scale). I always thought N scale was free from these problems but it sounds as if the same thing happened to N as it did with 00? 

 

Pretty much, although the % error is about half that of OO if I remember correctly.  The main objections that people often have to British N are: couplers, wheel thicknesses and track work.  How important these are might depend on your prototype (wheel thickness isn't really visible on most non-steam models, for example)

 

So, 2mm Finescale (as an alternative to N) would be the equivalent to P4 or EM (as an alternative to 00).

That's my understanding, I've seen people liken it (approximately) to EM.

 

-- how do the couplers of N scale work ... are shunting operations easy to do and does the rolling stock uncouple easily?

Depends on how you want to shunt.  The old rapido box couplers are good at keeping trains together and are pretty reliable, but they look awful and can only be uncoupled manually (or rather unreliably with ramps).  Dapol now do a range of magnetic couplers, for remote shunting, which are also much less obtrusive.  These are knuckle type couplers and I've heard good things but haven't tried them myself.  There are also the american and european manufacturers (Microtrains, Fleischmann and others I can't remember) who do similar couplings.  There are also a very small minority of N gaugers (including myself) who use other couplings, such as the DG couplings popular with 2mm modellers.

 

-- the main N scale manufacturers appear to be Graham Farish (owned by Bachmann) and Dapol. Are there others? ... I don't believe Hornby has an N scale line although they do have N scale buildings.

You are right, no Hornby locos (yet) in N.  The only other manufacturers of RTR locos I'm aware of is Union mills (no online shop, but a very good reputation in the community).  There are a few of kit and scratch aid manufacturers as well, but most of these only offer body components.  Wheels are the biggest challenge for making rolling stock in N and most people have to scavenge from other models (or turn their own).  Off the top of my head: NBrassLocos, Worsely Works, PD Marsh and Langley are worth a look.

 

Hope that that helps.

[Black Sheep]

Forgot about union mills.

 

Mathersons make some rolling stock

[GreenDiesel]

Thanks, Rabs and Black Sheep. This is very helpful info that I will refer back to.

[Tricky-CRS]

Hello Rob

 

The track can be improved in N Gauge by building your own or using finetrax products, I would recommend looking at Scale148.co.uk and the 2mm.org.uk for more information. I also produce N Gauge / 1:148 rolling stock kits, buildings and scenics.

[GreenDiesel]

Hello Rob

 

The track can be improved in N Gauge by building your own or using finetrax products, I would recommend looking at Scale148.co.uk and the 2mm.org.uk for more information. I also produce N Gauge / 1:148 rolling stock kits, buildings and scenics.

Thanks, Richard. Checking those sites now... Rob

[hallmodelspares]

also to work in finescale some rtr products can be adapted to finescale standards by fitting finer scale wheels.

on the n Hornby just buildings but they were due to introduce a brighton belle in n gauge under the arnold n gauge banner

[woodenhead]

I would also consider other outlines if you are looking at N.

 

Not wishing to put you off, British N products are probably of a lower quality than some European, North American and Japanese models. What you have to consider is if you have problems how easy it will be to return any items to the UK for fix or replacement. Also there is availability of items, a lot of our stuff is now limited run or past production so you might find you cannot source everything for your chosen era/location.

 

If I was starting out again I might not have chosen British N, there are a lot of nice models but not as many as in OO and my father was much happier when he moved to modelling North American.

 

This is not an avoid Farish/Dapol message, I have plenty of their models and they all work, just a think before you take the plunge especially when you are the other side of the Atlantic.

[GreenDiesel]

I would also consider other outlines if you are looking at N.

Not wishing to put you off, British N products are probably of a lower quality than some European, North American and Japanese models. What you have to consider is if you have problems how easy it will be to return any items to the UK for fix or replacement. Also there is availability of items, a lot of our stuff is now limited run or past production so you might find you cannot source everything for your chosen era/location.

If I was starting out again I might not have chosen British N, there are a lot of nice models but not as many as in OO and my father was much happier when he moved to modelling North American.

This is not an avoid Farish/Dapol message, I have plenty of their models and they all work, just a think before you take the plunge especially when you are the other side of the Atlantic.

Thanks, good points.

 

Based on my experience with OO, I haven't had any problems getting them repaired as there is a model shop nearby that has been able to repair all of my OO locos. Other model shops have been very helpful as well. I would anticipate similar service if I were to switch to N as there are a few retailers over here who sell N.

 

Having said that, I will give North American outline some thought, although I'm really a fan of British trains. Basically, you're saying that North American N scale is far better than Farish, etc? If so, which North American manufacturers do you most recommend?

 

Rob

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Rob,

 

The US market is considerably larger than the British one, and attracts higher levels of investment in models since greater sales will enable development costs to be more easily recouped.  IMO the premier manufacturers of US items are Kato and Atlas, though I would say that after lagging behind for many years British models have caught up in terms of detail and finish, though they're still not quite as smooth running or powerful IMO.

 

Another advantage US outline has is couplers.  Prototype US vehicles have long had knuckle couplers and no buffers.  These can be replicated in N without too much difficulty.  European trains, including British ones, have buffers and couplers that are basically variations on a chain and hook.  This creates various issues which mean vehicles need to be separated more than on the prototype to avoid buffer locking, or that couplers are mounted on bogies rather than the body, unless a pivoting cam is added.

 

To be fair, if you're planning an exclusively British or US layout then scenery is a factor too - you may find aspects of the buildings and terrain of one more appealing than the other.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[MinerChris]

Rob,

 

Admittedly I've only just made the trip over to Canada, but from my searching's it is possible to get hold of recent good quality UK outline stuff, but be warned it will cost a good deal more than it would in the UK, with HST etc..

 

I would say that N is probably a good place to "dip your toe in," before going full 2mm fine-scale, it's possible to swap most of the wheels once your ready for the better running and better looking wheels. There is also a 2mmSA area group kicking around ON, so they may be able to help you, I believe that they will be attending the exhibition in Brampton so may well be worth a visit.

 

Best Regards,

 

Chris of Sudbury, ON.

[BR60103]

Rob:

Can you hold off until the GBTS where you can look at the variations in British N & 2mm Finescale?  I expect to see the 2mm layouts there, but I can send you to the N scalers too.

 

Oh, and TT-3 is not right on the track, either. The gauge is meant for 1:120 scale, not 1:101.

[Andy Reichert]

Hello Rob

 

The track can be improved in N Gauge by building your own or using finetrax products, I would recommend looking at Scale148.co.uk and the 2mm.org.uk for more information. I also produce N Gauge / 1:148 rolling stock kits, buildings and scenics.

 

If you are already in Canada, then you might want to check the US Proto87 Stores. They have lots of parts for making or improving your own track in both US N and British N scales, but priced in US Dollars and same continent shipping

 

Andy

[GreenDiesel]

Rob:

Can you hold off until the GBTS where you can look at the variations in British N & 2mm Finescale?  I expect to see the 2mm layouts there, but I can send you to the N scalers too.

 

Oh, and TT-3 is not right on the track, either. The gauge is meant for 1:120 scale, not 1:101.

Hi David,

 

Yes, I plan to thoroughly check out the N scale layouts at the GBTS as well as the venders who sell new and used British N scale stuff. It should be a good place to find more info on both N and TT. Look forward to seeing you there.

 

Rob

[garethashenden]

If you are already in Canada, then you might want to check the US Proto87 Stores. They have lots of parts for making or improving your own track in both US N and British N scales, but priced in US Dollars and same continent shipping

 

Andy

Unfortunately, shipping from the US to Canada is almost as expensive as shipping from the US to the UK.

[JimF51]

Rob, as said, US N scale locos are far ahead of their counterparts, primarily due to the reason Ben A gave. Also, during the steam era in the US, few railroads built their own locos, as opposed to the UK, so a model of a Baldwin 2-8-0, for example, can be lettered for many roads. If one wants to detail it more specifically, there are lots of detail parts to do so. So this allows the mfrs to run larger quantities, increasing sales.

 

One shop in the UK I have been in contact with, Osbourne's, is a good source for UK N scale, and they have a flat £10 shipping cost to the US. I would guess similar, to Canada.

 

UK N is 1:148 scale, and 2mm is 1:152.4. I have asked about using N items on a 2mm layout, and have gotten answers that range from "no problem, looks fine" to "it looks like rubbish".

 

For myself, I have decided I can live with the narrow-ish gauge look of standard N, or OO, to make life simper for me.

 

Jim F

Salisbury NC

 

ps: There is a active N Gauge forum, as well: N Gauge Forum

[GreenDiesel]

Rob, as said, US N scale locos are far ahead of their counterparts, primarily due to the reason Ben A gave. Also, during the steam era in the US, few railroads built their own locos, as opposed to the UK, so a model of a Baldwin 2-8-0, for example, can be lettered for many roads. If one wants to detail it more specifically, there are lots of detail parts to do so. So this allows the mfrs to run larger quantities, increasing sales.

 

One shop in the UK I have been in contact with, Osbourne's, is a good source for UK N scale, and they have a flat £10 shipping cost to the US. I would guess similar, to Canada.

 

UK N is 1:148 scale, and 2mm is 1:152.4. I have asked about using N items on a 2mm layout, and have gotten answers that range from "no problem, looks fine" to "it looks like rubbish".

 

For myself, I have decided I can live with the narrow-ish gauge look of standard N, or OO, to make life simper for me.

 

Jim F

Salisbury NC

 

ps: There is a active N Gauge forum, as well: N Gauge Forum

Thanks, Jim. I appreciate this info especially re scales. I'll check that website too. I think I'd like to stay with British outline but we'll see. Cheers, Rob

[Adrian Wintle]

Rob, as said, US N scale locos are far ahead of their counterparts, primarily due to the reason Ben A gave. Also, during the steam era in the US, few railroads built their own locos, as opposed to the UK, so a model of a Baldwin 2-8-0, for example, can be lettered for many roads. If one wants to detail it more specifically, there are lots of detail parts to do so. So this allows the mfrs to run larger quantities, increasing sales.

 

 

Not strictly true. Yes, a lot of railroads used USRA locos (think BR Standards), but they often modified details. The major roads had their own classes of locos, some of which were very distinctive. Outside of the railroads that had their own shops, the majority of the locos were build by a few big players (Baldwin etc.), so there was a lot of similarity in the designs, but almost all US steam loco models in N scale (except for the USRA standards) are based on a particular prototype for a particular road, or are a 'generic'.

 

For finding out what is/has been available in North American N, you can start with Spookshow's website: http://www.spookshow.net/trainstuff.html

 

Adrian

[JimF51]

Yes, not 'strictly' true, but more usual than in the UK. I didn't mean standardization, as in USRA, but that many roads bought from builders 'catalogs'. Example, the C&O needed something to replace double heading 4-6-2 Pacifics in the mountains, as passenger cars became heavier and trains longer. They had ALCO design the new engine, which became the 4-8-2 Mountain type. This was a success, and other roads then bought the same type from ALCO, but made with features they wanted.

 

Very few railroads had their own erecting shops, verses the UK, where it seems most railways built their own locos.

 

Jim F

Salisbury NC

[Adrian Wintle]

Yes, not 'strictly' true, but more usual than in the UK. I didn't mean standardization, as in USRA, but that many roads bought from builders 'catalogs'. Example, the C&O needed something to replace double heading 4-6-2 Pacifics in the mountains, as passenger cars became heavier and trains longer. They had ALCO design the new engine, which became the 4-8-2 Mountain type. This was a success, and other roads then bought the same type from ALCO, but made with features they wanted.

 

Very few railroads had their own erecting shops, verses the UK, where it seems most railways built their own locos.

 

Jim F

Salisbury NC

 

Agreed, but it is still like saying - here is a model of a Fowler 4F 0-6-0, so we'll paint it up as a variety of Fowler-designed 0-6-0s. It wouldn't be accepted for UK-outline these days, but it is in US N-scale primarily due to the vast range of prototype variations of a base type.

 

Adrian

[Karhedron]

UK N is 1:148 scale, and 2mm is 1:152.4. I have asked about using N items on a 2mm layout, and have gotten answers that range from "no problem, looks fine" to "it looks like rubbish".

In a lot of cases, this will depend on exactly what you are comparing. If you have a 1:148 5-plank wagon coupled next to a 1:152 one, it will probably look very odd (at best). On the other hand, 1:152 stock running through a landscape using 1:148 scenic items will look fine. Scale differences of a few percent are only obvious when you have similar items in close proximity.

 

Personally I am happy with commercial N gauge (1:148) for my stock. The scale/guage discrepancy is only about half as bad as it is for 00 gauge and for me, it is not particularly noticable. I notice things like the larghe couplings and deep rails more than a slight narrowing of gauge. The main thing to remember is that sloutions exist to most of the "problems" with N gauge if they bother you enough. Aftermarket brass couplings are available that are far less obtrusive than the chunky Rapidos. FiNetrax make code 40 track in kit for that looks very nice if Peco does not look convincing enough for you.

 

For me, the compromises in N gauge are not sufficient to bother me and I focus my efforts on kit-building and scenery building to help make my layout a little more individual.

[queensquare]

In a lot of cases, this will depend on exactly what you are comparing. If you have a 1:148 5-plank wagon coupled next to a 1:152 one, it will probably look very odd (at best). On the other hand, 1:152 stock running through a landscape using 1:148 scenic items will look fine. Scale differences of a few percent are only obvious when you have similar items in close proximity.

 

 

This old chestnut crops up regularly. The truth is that stock that is accurate to 1:148 (and much N gauge stock is not containing all sorts of compromises that have nothing to do with the gauge - Peco wagons for example are grossly bloated) looks fine alonside 1:152 stock. The picture below shows seven items of stock on my Tucking Mill layout; two are scratchbuilt to 1:152, three are kitbuilt to 1:152 and two are converted N, 1:148. Can you tell which ones are which and do they look 'very odd at best'.?

 

 

Jerry

[Karhedron]

You will notice I did say "similar items in close proximity". The train in your photo is mixed so that no similar stock is adjacent, thus any discrepancy is harder to spot. Vans are interspersed with opens.

Semantics aside though, that is a fantastic modelling on display. It really shows how N/2mm excels at showing a railway in its landscape.

[GreenDiesel]

Thanks, this discussion has been helpful.

 

If I had a choice, I'd stick with 00 and build a huge layout, but there's no room for that!

 

My options boil down to 3 choices:

-- stick with 00 using a "terminus-to-fiddleyard" or switching layout (still a viable option)

-- convert to British or Canadian N scale

-- or change to British TT scale (not likely since TT items are too rare)

 

I don't need to rush, however ... I can decide over the next several months after I've weighed the pro's and con's.  All I know is that my limited space will probably become even more confined over the next few years, and it's better to plan ahead now.