The Eagle has landed...

[Regularity]

21 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Not AGAIN...???!!!???    

 

 

And you are surprised?

Why? I know that the past isn’t a perfect predictor of the future, but there is a trend here...

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Fear not - the terminus will return in an enhanced form.  The current version had some inherent flaws that made ops a bit less than they could be, so an improved version is being planned.  Needs some woodwork first though, not easy to get the bits in our second spell of lockdown...

[Northroader]

1 hour ago, Regularity said:

And you are surprised?

Why? I know that the past isn’t a perfect predictor of the future, but there is a trend here...

 

So young, so cynical.

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

Crikey, I see Beeching's been...

 

Wot is U doing?

 

Or should I be saying make your mind up.

[Regularity]

8 hours ago, Northroader said:

 

So young, so cynical.

You are only half-right, I am sorry to say...

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

On 09/07/2020 at 15:54, Clive Mortimore said:

Wot is U doing? 

 

Well now, I'm glad you asked.

 

I really enjoyed the terminus - it operated well, and was interesting to play with.  It did have some flaws which were a consequence of sticking with the boards I built for the original US style Industrial Switcher Layout, that is long and thin.  This meant the station was cramped and lacked decent freight sidings.  Not a problem if I was to go down the EMU route of course, but I quite like a liner train or two, plus cement and general merchandise.

 

The bigger problems though were a lack of running length, and my utter hatred of 'fiddle yards' or 'staging yards'.   A train would leave the station and almost immediately arrive at the end of the line, whereupon it would sit belligerently waiting for me to run the loco around, or do some other trick to reverse its direction ready to go back to the station.  Try as I might, I could not get over the waste of space and the break in the illusion that I was operating a railway.

 

Nagging at the back of my mind was a feeling that there must be a solution to this problem, and having partaken of the Minories thread, I remembered an article by S W Stevens-Stratten in the 1979 Model Railway Constructor Annual.  In 'South for Moonshine'. he describes a layout that had always impressed me because of its evocation of modelling a mainline in such a way that dispensed with the need for a dead end fiddle yard.  

 

What really chimed was this, and it's worth quoting in full, as I've never been able to express it any better;

 

'Compared with the normal fiddle yard, a concealed return loop maintains more convincingly the illusion of 'romantic places' far afield - especially if it has more than one track, so that the last train down is never the first train back, and even more so if it works automatically.  For then, when a train runs 'off the map' it is not only out of sight but also, out of mind:  no one can recall what trains are hibernating in the tunnel, waiting to reappear at the scheduled time.  And since what had been a down Tunbridge Wells was liable to emerge, considerably later, as an up East Grinstead, and since in the meantime the Croydon operator had to make other movements, the illusion that a train really had been where it was due to go was nearly complete.

 

By contrast, a fiddle yard - even if hidden from public view - can never deceive the owner or his fellow operators:  it can be all right for exhibitions, but falls down badly as an attempt at private illusion'.

 

The diagrams makes clear how this works in principle:

 

 

 

and a 'scenic' track plan suggests how the whole thing might fit into the shed;

 

 

So the project for this summer is to reconstruct the current boards to accomodate an automatic return loop that can handle several trains, then construct an entirely new top deck to support a slightly larger terminus with enhanced freight and loco facilities.

 

• DCC of course
• some form of block occupancy detection
• automatic train 'driving' (some form of 'fire and forget' system, so that I can enjoy working the station and limits manually while trains toddle off and come back without my intervention
• enhanced freight facilities
• intermediate station for locals and
• at least one other station on the lower level as a destination for the push pull service

So the disappearance of the current terminus is more of an evolutionary step, whereby I've finally accepted that to have a more interesting playtime I need to take a step back and do some more construction before building A Better Railway for the Future.

 

Lockdown is now rumoured to be extended into August, so at least for the next few weeks progress is likely to be slow and consist mainly of clearing away the current set up and having a jolly good tidy up.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Regularity]

I love that layout: personal preferences mean I would prefer more by way of goods yards and shunting, but the overall concept is superb.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Doc

 

I am really lucky with the room Mrs M allocated to my train set. I have a big terminus because all my favorite trainspotting was done of the end of terminus station platforms, watching the loco moves and the what seemed a constant stream of trains going in and out. I too find the concept of terminus to fiddle yard without any running length frustrating to a degree, I do realise that space is a problem for most of us and that is why we are limited. Where I am lucky I have the room for a continuous run so my trains go from Sheffield Exchange to somewhere. OK "somewhere" is one of the fiddle yards, I could have made them into stations but I used the space for more sidings and trains. With the continuous run my express trains can thunder around while the local passenger trots along  at a more leisurely pace. While that is happening I can do the loco moves, shunt parcels wagons or the loco coal or diesel tank trains or just sit back and watch the trains on the mainline.   As I say I am really lucky that Mrs M said that I could have the room I have.

 

I look forward to seeing how your project evolves.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Clive Mortimore

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

41 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

As I say I am really lucky that Mrs M said that I could have the room I have.

 

Can I borrow her for a bit, I need a bigger shed...

[Lacathedrale]

Really interesting Mr P - I had come to a similar conclusion albeit by a completely inverse trajectory with a tiny layout with 3' minimum space. I thought to myself 'gosh, this needs about two feet inserted at every foot', just in order that the trains are moving for more then a few seconds before coming to a halt.  It's really interesting how sometimes plans just can't convey the nuances of real-life usage - part of the reason I'm a bit leery about the operating potential of any layout I end up building.

 

Can you remember coming over to operate the ATSF layout  I built in my house in Brockley?

 

A perfect example of a plan we had both spent a good time analysing, but just didn't work out in pracise - in this case, the exact thing you're mentioning - half the layout being non-scenic and only a few feet of 'run' between stops!

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I remember it well... ops were fun, but limited. Now, would it surprise you to know that the 'improved terminus' will be similar to Caterham?  Trackplan wise at least.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Lacathedrale]

I keep circling the drain with a Caterham plan, and it feels like an unwilling obligation to model it in some form at this point, but I think that Caterham has got so much going for it - pre 1899 as a single line branch terminus that would have been jam packed, even with the loco shed at the end of the platform - in the edwardian period with huge 4-4-0's visiting as well as lots of commuter and freight traffic and the remnants of the old station adjacent, and the pre-war period with multiple units. Good stuff.

 

I think the issue with the ops on the ATSF layout was that I didn't really have a mechanism for handling the trains as they came off and on-scene - presumably as you've discussed re: your layout previously, there needs to be some definite reason for trains. Reading MRJ47ish about operating Buckingham GCR you realise just how intensive the operational aspects were, let alone the modelling. It might sound like I'm espousing a US-style operational-driven layout design, but I think it's more than that - it provides the purpose for train movements of course, but the wider context informs decisions about track plans, locomotives and rolling stock to a huge degree.

 

As a tangent, how are you finding a 'shed layout' as opposed to a home layout? I'd be worried if I made a layout that only existed in the garage, that I'd never do anything with it!

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I'd prefer to clear the upper floor of bedrooms and have a larger indoors layout, but the family weren't keen.  So I got banished to the bottom of the garden.  It's great that it's a completely purpose built space, but i tend to lose interest between october and Easter.... partly because of the weather.

 

In a tangent universe I have an O scale basement empire and an operating crew to match

[Regularity]

44 minutes ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

In a tangent universe I have an O scale basement empire and an operating crew to match

They are only about 1.5" tall?

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Major infrastructure works are in hand to improve operations and increase the mainline run by about 500%

 

[webbcompound]

12 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

Major infrastructure works are in hand to improve operations and increase the mainline run by about 500%

 

 

You might have poroblems with stock falling on the floor until you revise your trackplan though..

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

One of the major motivations for The Big Rebuild was to address the lack of a decent length of run for trains on my original terminus-fiddle yard scheme.  

 

A rough back of a fag packet calculation suggests that the new pike will have a run of just over two scale miles for a terminus - return loop - terminus journey.  I'm very happy with that.

 

Here's a taster of how the terminus throat area will look.

 

 

I'm taking time to place everything in advance to work out critical elements fit properly, and maintaining a minimum 30" radius to ensure reliable operations.

[Lacathedrale]

So the station throat is raised, leading back twards the grain silos? Presumably you're re-using track, how are you fixing it down between rebuilds? What do/did your operating sessions look like?

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

The whole station complex will now be raised above the rest of the layout, with a long ramp down to the lower level on the opposite side of the shed from the station.  Ops will be - out and back, and there will also be a small terminus on the lower level inside the return loop for the push pull train and some local freight.  The schematic was featured in a previous post

 

I am reusing track I have - but also need at least another 25 yards, on its way from Hattons hopefully arrive by Tuesday.  I use woodlands scenic trackbed, lightly tacked down with PVA and once the track is properly situated, it'll get tacked and ballasted with PVA.

 

At the moment I am positioning everything 'dry' to make sure it all fits and works before tacking it down.  I'm being careful to maintain good curves, a minimum of 30" radius with easements, proper parallel spacing and neat tangents.

 

Once the lower level is in and tested, the upper deck will be constructed 'off site' and then plonked on top.

 

I am considering some sort of semi-automation of the lower level circuit, utilising block detection and some form of train control so that I can 'fire and forget' trains out of the two termini, but not - so far -got much of a clue how to do that.  I am getting a Digitrax AR1 auto reverser for the return loop though.  The idea is to do as little 'fiddling' with trains outside of the termini.... trying to maintain the illusion that they go somewhere, as in the Inspirational Article cited previously.

 

It really would suit EMUs and late 60s Southern Steam theme... battered Jarvis rebuild Light Pacifics towing mixed green and occasional blue/grey coaches... an all blue 4TC with a push pull fitted blue D65xx...

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Probably progress on this should be a new thread over in layouts, but I feel sad abandoning the whole sorry saga that's in this thread... it's all in here, apart fro the short sojourn to the Far North of Scotland which lasted barely one summer.

 

 

[skipepsi]

Leave a copy here and move another copy to layouts, there is much more to the thread than just whichever layout is in the shed just now.

[F-UnitMad]

If it's definitely staying with Iarnród Éireann, then copy as much as is needed from this thread into a new one, maybe in the Irish special interest section?

Leave this thread here, because if it changes Prototype again, you can come back here....

 

Meanwhile the rest of us can speculate what will happen next..??!!

Trackplan gets changed again. Odds-on favourite.

Prototype stays as Irish Rail but is backdated to include steam, 20/1

Prototype stays as Irish Rail but track is changed to correct gauge, 200/1 outsider.

Prototype changes again. 50/1

Place bets as appropriate on what next Prototype will be; Indian? Scandanavian? Outer Mongolian Yak Tram?

Ah, what fun....

 

[Regularity]

16 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Prototype changes again. 50/1

Surely 50:1 on, I.e. 1:50 (50 times more likely to happen than not!)

[F-UnitMad]

I was trying to be generous...

[Lacathedrale]

On 26/07/2020 at 16:39, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

The schematic was featured in a previous post

 

It really would suit EMUs and late 60s Southern Steam theme... battered Jarvis rebuild Light Pacifics towing mixed green and occasional blue/grey coaches... an all blue 4TC with a push pull fitted blue D65xx...

 

 

Interesting stuff - a 30" radius return loop is no small thing to commit to but I guess if you can stomach the stoop/duck under (I imagine significantly more tolerable bisecting a dedicated room than one which has to play double-duty!) then it may well do as written on the side of the tin. Certainly there's a charm all of their own on those early layouts like Charford - in this case, Clapham Junction with a single island - but you're definitely getting your money's worth with regard to run length and operational intensity.