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Leberecht, my Prussian modelling adventure.


Allegheny1600
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Hi All,

 

PLEASE NOTE: The up to date story so far now starts from post number 22. Hope this makes things clear.

 

After much deliberation, I reluctantly had to shelve my plans for "Swarzwaldbahn" as it may be that we don't stay in this house for ever more, in it's place I am planning not one but two(!) German layouts instead. These will actually share the space allocated for my British P4 layout "Windley" and one will get worked on, followed by another as my mood and interest waxes and wanes.

Why the need for two German layouts then?

Well, the first plan to develop was a bang up to date stone quarry type of terminal using very modern loco types as produced by Vossloth & Voith in real life and by various makers in H0 scale. I only really know the modern German scene in real life since my first proper visit in about 2008, I did visit in 1977 but didn't see many trains as it was only a flying visit. Although I do very much like this period as it was very colourful and there was a lot of very interesting traction about so, if I feel like back-dating to this period, I can do so.

My need for the second layout comes about from my fascination with what we would call the 'pre-group' period of the Bavarian railways. This will be set in about 1920 when the old liveries of lined green (akin to our Great Northern livery) would still have been about as well as the then current plain green livery.

This requires more changes than simply changing the stock/road vehicles etc.

The rail section would have been lighter in the early period, signals would be typically Bavarian, track layout different, roads would be still commonly dirt tracks, not to mention the dress of the people, signage and so forth.

While I only have a space of 9' x 7' with maximum depth of baseboards being 18", I have developed the following plan with a little help from friends in other places!

post-6892-0-67433700-1396377087.jpg

This is the modern quarry version!

The track on here is Tillig Elite and some may spot straight away that Tillig don't do a three way point yet and they certainly don't do a curved three way! Fortunately for me Herr Weller does, see: http://www.g-weller.de/ and the appropriate point bases are now ordered. Looks like I'll need all my P4 experience for these!

Operation will be simple enough but hopefully entertaining; big main line loco brings empties into one of the loops, drops train and runs around onto loads then back onto sector plate. Private owner diesel then shunts empties through the loader and builds up a fresh train.

While this happens, a small railcar can shuttle back & forth into the station, which is more of a halt really.

I haven't yet drawn up the 1920's version of this yet but this will use Peco code 75 track, the station facilities will have to be enhanced slightly and local goods facilities added. Whether I continue with the quarry theme or go for a coal tippler, I haven't yet decided but I do have a nice collection of Bavarian bogie hoppers!

More to come presently - if the interest is there!

John E.

 

Edited to clarify latest changes.

Note: A suitable name for the Prussian layout has finally been chosen.

Edited by Allegheny1600
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Chris,

Thanks for looking in! Yes, it is a great temptation and so easy to do German "Pre Group" as there really is a lot of stuff available, as you say.

If there hadn't been, I would never have gotten started. I was initially looking to 'model' prior to 1914 but then really nice models came out that represent stuff built to replace all the locos lost as war reparations, so 1920 it became.

More to come soon, just my big trade show this w/e and a few days rest then I can start modelling again!

Cheers,

John E.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi All,
Sorry for the lack of updates, work, work, work!!
However, I have made a start in that the first baseboard proper is now complete and I'm slowly building the fiddleyard board too. No pics at the moment as I seem to have mislaid my camera!

I could have used it at York but it's somewhere no doubt!

I have been doing some more sketching too as can be seen below;

post-6892-0-49047100-1398193946.jpg

Some rationalisation has taken place! I realised that it was unlikely to be necessary for this modern plan to require the original four loops so have cut these down to three. Also there seems to be some kind of problem with my order so have lost the curved three way for now.

 

Now THIS is the interesting plan!;

post-6892-0-43669700-1398193955.jpg

This is the Bavarian era I version.
I have moved things around somewhat including making the Bahnhof appear that IT was the original reason for the line opening and changing the quarry to a coal loader - merely because I have some Bavarian coal hoppers but no specific stone wagons.
I'm not sure about the single slip at all I must admit. This is using Peco code 75 track as the Tillig is just too modern & heavy duty.
The Guterschuppen perhaps should be part of the Bahnhof building itself and if I go with that, I may put an additional industry there, maybe a winery loading dock? A Brewery may be too old hat but I have suitable wagons for either!
Any thoughts please? What I'm trying to do is to show the evolution of a track layout over time even if the location has changed!?!
Cheers,
John E.

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Hi all,

Good news! I've found my camera - it had been lurking somewhere safe but I forgot where!!!

Anyway, some shots to illustrate that I do do some modelling from time to time, rather than just sketch plans!

post-6892-0-80446100-1398438584.jpg

post-6892-0-48393300-1398438586.jpg

These are just a couple of shots showing the location where the layout is to live and it's means of support via the metal bracketing. The green boards are my old "Flixborough" layout boards that are in the process of being stripped of track before being passed on to a mate for re-use.

 

post-6892-0-18673800-1398438776.jpg

These are the new traverser board & first proper baseboard to go where "Flixborough" boards are shown above. These are constructed from 70mmx12mm pine frames with 9mm ply top surface. The large 'hole' in the R/H board is where the traverser will sit. These are just bare boards right now, they need to be able to be fitted together and aligned every time.

post-6892-0-11421600-1398438778.jpg

First, clamp the two boards together, making sure the top surface and sides are flush.

post-6892-0-12549200-1398440406.jpg

Then mark out and drill a small (3mm) pilot hole right through both end frames.

post-6892-0-82494600-1398440505.jpg

Then drill out a 25mm dia shallow hole and fit the C&L baseboard joiners/alignment tool and screw in. These are supplied with c.20mm screws and they really need these as a minimum so I added some backing material to the frames to beef them up a bit.

post-6892-0-17669300-1398440747.jpg

Job done! They fit lovely! Case catches will be fitted to the o/s of the frames once the heavy work is done and the boards have been painted.

post-6892-0-80406000-1398438588.jpg

post-6892-0-71568600-1398438773.jpg

These show the testing for the traverser. I've never built a traverser before so my method might seem slightly cock-eyed but here we go!

First I decided the base should be quite substantial so I used a piece of 12mm ply reinforced with a couple of strips of well matured 2"x1" screwed & glued on. As it is effectively a free standing piece of kit, I thought it best to do it this way.

Next I used a pair of drawer runners from my local hardware store, not the cheaper kind but those with ball bearing runners that seem quite rigid even at full stretch. The underside of the traverser was carefully marked out, ensuring the lines for the runners were quite parallel. I then chose two strips of well matured 30mm square timber to secure the runners to and when satisfied I had got sufficient movement fore & aft, I clamped the runner bearers down and gave it a thorough test - it seemed to work okay!

 

This post is getting a bit big so back in a min!

John E.

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Righto now that's safely uploaded here is part two!

post-6892-0-51692500-1398441148.jpg

post-6892-0-97612100-1398441158.jpg

After some head scratching, I realised that I needed to bring my sash clamps into play in order to set the traverser runner bearers correctly into my board. Quite a bit of faffing around including cutting small sections from the main frames to allow the runners to pass through and the position seemed set so I screwed everything together with decent large gauge screws!

post-6892-0-48876200-1398441367.jpg

post-6892-0-55805500-1398441369.jpg

Wow! Looks like it works okay! Although the traverser seems to run perfectly fore & aft and the gaps between it and the baseboard (9mm) tops are always equal, there is a very slight misalignment along the length! I don't quite know why and I'm happy enough with it for now. If a problem arises later I'll deal with it but this is good enough for me!

Finally a recent treat for me!

post-6892-0-69135400-1398441732.jpg

post-6892-0-88549600-1398441734.jpg

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This was for my hard graft in the run up to "Flame off", my good lady and mine annual UK bead show where we generally do a fair bit of business!

It's a Roco Bavarian "Glaskasten" (glass castle/house) - a single manned 0-4-0 loco complete with sound and three matching coaches, I love it! It's amazing that they have managed to squeeze sound as well as a good powerful mechanism into such a tiny loco, it runs and sounds greeaaat! A bit touchy over my Peco three way's though, might need another re-think on the plan to eliminate the last one, pity as they are a typical feature of Bavarian nebenbahn (branchlines!).

Cheers for now,

John E.

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John,

 

 

What sort of Bavarian hopper wagons are you planning to use?

 

I believe the Bavarian hopper wagons from Trix/Märklin were used for the import of coal from Rheinhafen Gustavsburg near Mainz to Bw München Hbf, because of the poor quality and limited quantity of the local Bavarian coal. This would imply an unloading facility rather than loading one.

 

 

Tony

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John,

That looks an impressive workshop, a bit more like it than my extension!

 

Clamping together, oh yes, good idea.  Glad I read this before I have got that far.

 

The traverser looks good to me.  I am sure I have seen others who use drawer sliders, but I think you are right not to go for cheap ones.

 

The engine and coaches look impressive.  I do like them, even though I would not necessarily want them on my layout.

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John,

What sort of Bavarian hopper wagons are you planning to use?

I believe the Bavarian hopper wagons from Trix/Märklin were used for the import of coal from Rheinhafen Gustavsburg near Mainz to Bw München Hbf, because of the poor quality and limited quantity of the local Bavarian coal. This would imply an unloading facility rather than loading one.

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

Firstly, many thanks for the addition of some useful information I was unaware of.

Secondly, bu66er, bu66er, bu66ger!!! They are exactly those wagons that I have painstakingly collected over several years!!! As an Aussie might say "Oh, bu66er"!!

Not to worry, despite them being inaccurate therefore, I will perceiver for now. I do have various open wagons that should be useful but have yet to get any of those rather odd looking Fleischmann steel opens of Bavarian design.

May I ask, where and how did you come by this information, please? I don't have many books on Bavarian railways and I'm not too hot on reading German(!) either even though pictures are very useful.

Cheers,

John E. 

Edited by Allegheny1600
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John,

That looks an impressive workshop, a bit more like it than my extension!

Clamping together, oh yes, good idea.  Glad I read this before I have got that far.

The traverser looks good to me.  I am sure I have seen others who use drawer sliders, but I think you are right not to go for cheap ones.

The engine and coaches look impressive.  I do like them, even though I would not necessarily want them on my layout.

Thanks Chris,

I'm very glad to be of help! Note the offcuts of 2"x1" used with the clamp to spread the load over a broad area, it gives such good hold, I could have picked one board up with the other attached!

Thanks for your other comments too, appreciated! The workshop is now a joint one used by my wife and I - it's nice to work away on our hobbies together!

Cheers,

John E.

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John,

 

Sorry to upset your plans.

 

The best reference is Güterwagen, Band 4, Offene Wagen in Sonderbauart by Stefan Carstens, published by MIBA. This says “the Bavarian Staatsbahn purchased from MAN in 1905/6 as “Regiekohlenwagen”, after a prototype built in 1903, 50 self-unloading wagons from an American design. They were for the supply of the large coaling station at Bw Munich Hbf and the transport from Rheinhafen Gustavsburg (near Mainz) to München-Laim and to München Hbf.”

 

There is also a reference at the bottom of this webpage.

http://www.hs-merseburg.de/~nosske/EpocheII/fg/e2f_gwse.html

 

If you would like more information, send me a PM.

 

Tony

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  • 3 months later...

Hi David!

'Blush'! I do like doing carpentry, thanks very much!!!

When I first started to get into German railways, I didn't actually like the red & black(!?!) as it seemed quite 'vulgar' at the time that's why I went for what I call German pre-group stuff! I felt the Bavarian livery was quite reminiscent of our own Great Northern livery which I was very fond of so that's why I ended up with the Bavarian stuff!

Subsequently I did grow to like the black & red, then I really fell for it and can't get enough now!

 

Will take up with this layout again when I've got my 'test track' up and running and got a few more jobs out of the way!

Cheers,

John.

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  • 4 months later...

Hi All,

It's been a whole lot longer than I wanted since I posted on here, been rather busy!

I recently found some pictures I had taken during baseboard construction so I thought I'd post them, better late than never and hopefully they may be a useful record of how I did it. These are effectively just prior to post #5.

 

post-6892-0-69310700-1418639440.jpg

This is the timber for the final two boards, all cut ready for assembly.

 

post-6892-0-72178200-1418638452.jpg

post-6892-0-85832800-1418638450.jpg

I clamped a pre-drilled 'noggin' of timber to the ends of the main frame as a drilling template. Note the sacrificial piece of timber that I place under the work, this saves the work-piece some 'splitting' and also saves the workbench/table.

 

post-6892-0-48371700-1418638454.jpg

Once 3.5mm clearance holes were drilled, use countersink in electric screwdriver for fast easy countersinking.

 

post-6892-0-45258800-1418638456.jpg

post-6892-0-22343300-1418638458.jpg

Using the work table to line up side and end frames, then clamping securely into position.

 

post-6892-0-20115300-1418638460.jpg

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Drilling pilot hole then carefully driving screws home - DO NOT overtighten as the wood will definitely split.

This will form an "L", take another side and end & repeat then join both "L"s together now we have a rectangular open box.

 

post-6892-0-86854800-1418638951.jpg

Mounting the central frame piece. Similar procedure to drilling end holes only now I go from pencil lines on my 'noggin!

 

post-6892-0-69892500-1418638953.jpg

The completed open box.

 

Part 2 coming shortly.

 

 

 

 

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post-6892-0-79553400-1418639899_thumb.jpg

Use tape measure corner to corner as squareness check, I allow up to about 1/8th inch here as we're not doing cabinet making and it's soft wood too.

 

post-6892-0-76321700-1418639891.jpg

post-6892-0-70339500-1418639893.jpg

The open box can now be placed on the board top material and the outline of the frame marked out, then you need the centreline for drilling. This is necessary due to the 12mm thickness of the framing, you really need those screws to go in central & square on.

Again note the sacrificial ply underneath, my work table still got a few holes in it.

 

post-6892-0-74869000-1418639896_thumb.jpg

Countersink those holes again!

 

post-6892-0-77310800-1418639901.jpg

Checking everything is flat.

 

post-6892-0-67450600-1418639903.jpg

Two almost completed boards.

 

post-6892-0-44782700-1418639905.jpg

post-6892-0-40670400-1418639907.jpg

Now, those EMGS/C&L type board joiners won't work in such thin timber so taking some slim offcuts, screw & glue them into place and we're now almost ready for post #5!

 

What I didn't photograph was, once all the metal furniture was added and the boards tested for fit, I then glued in all those little quarter round pieces seen in the first image of post #16. Not much to see, I use the old carpenters method of smearing glue over the mating faces then 'rubbing' the gluing piece closely into position so the glue gets into the grain, then 'sticks' into position. Needless to say, the glue hasn't set yet but it is enough to hold itself in position until it does set properly.

 

Cheers,

John E.

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Post #4 needs amending really but in order that I can keep track of my old ideas, I'll update it here.

The 'modern' plan still looks pretty good but the 1920's plan looks too complex now so I've had a little shuffle around to come up with this;

 

post-6892-0-40452900-1418642242_thumb.jpg

 

The awful mess around the Gutershuppen has been tidied up and I've moved the Lokshuppen away from the quarry area thereby reducing the trackage in that area.

I'm still not sure whether or not to have the loco shed at the end of the goods shed siding or not.

 

Note that it is a quarry (rather than mine) in the 1920 version as well as the 2014+ version! Partly because I've now changed my epoch 1 focus from Bavarian to Prussian!

I also fancied the idea of modelling stone operations rather than coal. I'm not going to be disposing of any Bavarian stock just packing it away for a while and being quite obsessed with all things Prussian at the moment. I had noticed with my DB stock that I preferred the look of the former Prussian stock to the former Bavarian stock, strange how things work out.

As far as I can tell however my track plan above is as typically Prussian as it is Bavarian so that hasn't changed in that respect.

Cheers,

John.

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John,

It is good to see something built by someone who knows how to do it properly.  Have fun with it.  The Preiser Edwardian Railway staff are Prussian rather than Bavarian so if you use them they will not be muttering under their breath, "I am only pretending to be Bavarian, etc...."

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In the spirit of the season and of this thread,

"Frohe Weihnachten und die besten wünsche für das neue jahr"

Freundliche Grüße,

John.

 

In the spirit of the season and of this thread,

"Frohe Weihnachten und die besten wünsche für das neue jahr"

Freundliche Grüße,

John.

 

Danke schön

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  • 6 months later...

Good evening!

At last this project is making some headway, even if the original aims have changed somewhat from my first post back in April 2014.

Note: the title change, this is to illustrate my aim to concentrate on Prussian outline and on only one layout at a time*.

So, "Irgendwo in Prussia" - what's that about? Quite simply, "Irgendwo" is German for "Somewhere" and seems to be a not uncommon title for several layouts set "Somewhere in . . . . . . . ." on several German forums I have visited. It just seemed like a good idea to adopt as a place name.

After posting about my ideas on said fora, I gratefully adopted further suggestions on modifying my trackplan to give it a much more typical Prussian appearance, like so;

post-6892-0-38255500-1437079220_thumb.jpg

 

Notice how the left hand three way has been replaced by a small turntable! Apparently all tender locos were turned round at branch termini and many tank engines were turned too. It seems this was a quite typical arrangement that still is in place in some areas even today.

My problem was where to obtain such a small table?

It is perfectly possible to buy a kit for virtually any size table you want (expensive!) so I thought I would have to scratchbuild or heavily adapt an N gauge version until I discovered that Fleischmann made a small table. I did some further research, found out the typical price for one and bought one at online auction.

Also at last, I have finished assembling the boards and have fitted them into my box room;

 

post-6892-0-98816700-1437082304.jpg

Tucking in tight behind a cupboard.

 

post-6892-0-50050800-1437082327.jpg

Spanning the window.

 

post-6892-0-72442200-1437082344.jpg

I may have to make a small "filler" board to fit into this corner as any tracks will be close to the edge here.

 

post-6892-0-50118900-1437082359.jpg

Due to the proximity of the adjacent cupboard, I lose some movement on the traverser but at least, it's in.

 

Hopefully it wont be another six months before I post again but last time, I gave up smoking, felt carp for several months, had tons of work to do and recently many hospital visits to pack into life. Thankfully, I'm finally starting to feel something like!

 

 

*The present day German outline will surface on another thread - sometime.

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Good evening!

At last this project is making some headway, even if the original aims have changed somewhat from my first post back in April 2014.

Note: the title change, this is to illustrate my aim to concentrate on Prussian outline and on only one layout at a time*.

So, "Irgendwo in Prussia" - what's that about? Quite simply, "Irgendwo" is German for "Somewhere" and seems to be a not uncommon title for several layouts set "Somewhere in . . . . . . . ." on several German forums I have visited. It just seemed like a good idea to adopt as a place name.

After posting about my ideas on said fora, I gratefully adopted further suggestions on modifying my trackplan to give it a much more typical Prussian appearance, like so;

attachicon.gifPrussian H0 Quarry Metric3.jpg

 

Notice how the left hand three way has been replaced by a small turntable! Apparently all tender locos were turned round at branch termini and many tank engines were turned too. It seems this was a quite typical arrangement that still is in place in some areas even today.

My problem was where to obtain such a small table?

It is perfectly possible to buy a kit for virtually any size table you want (expensive!) so I thought I would have to scratchbuild or heavily adapt an N gauge version until I discovered that Fleischmann made a small table. I did some further research, found out the typical price for one and bought one at online auction.

Also at last, I have finished assembling the boards and have fitted them into my box room;

 

attachicon.gifP1160959.JPG

Tucking in tight behind a cupboard.

 

attachicon.gifP1160955B.jpg

Spanning the window.

 

attachicon.gifP1160952C.jpg

I may have to make a small "filler" board to fit into this corner as any tracks will be close to the edge here.

 

attachicon.gifP1160966D.jpg

Due to the proximity of the adjacent cupboard, I lose some movement on the traverser but at least, it's in.

 

Hopefully it wont be another six months before I post again but last time, I gave up smoking, felt carp for several months, had tons of work to do and recently many hospital visits to pack into life. Thankfully, I'm finally starting to feel something like!

 

 

*The present day German outline will surface on another thread - sometime.

 

John,

I was going to ask what you covered the boards in, but is it just paint?  they look pretty neat but hen again they would, I have seen your stuff before.

 

Is this pre 1914?  f so apart from Staddens figures there is a large box of unpainted Edwardian Preiser figures which include Prussian railway workers.  They are not made any more, but sometimes come up on EBay.  The pre painted ones are still available for fewer numbers and higher prices.

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Hi Chris,

Thanks for your comments! Yes, the boards are just painted at the moment, I will cover the top surfaces with 3mm closed cell foam when I have the track plan sorted and holes drilled for the turntable and point operating rods.

The era will be approximately 1920 give or take a couple of years either way!

I originally wanted to set my period pre 1914 as that was when the most ornate livery was around, along with the Prussian Eagle on the stock but found myself unable to resist buying some models in what I subsequently learned was a post war simplified livery, sans eagle. However I figured that the earlier livery would have still been around for quite a while. I know that in Germany/Prussia, locos were repainted approximately every four years but surely not during wartime?

You may or may not know that the German railways were "Unified" (similar to our Nationalisation rather than our grouping really) in 1920 with the exception of the Bavarian railways group who followed along in 1930.

It seems that the Germans didn't start painting everything black and red straight away however, it may be that some designs of Prussian stock were still being turned out in Olive Green/Red Brown into 1924 meaning this livery could still be seen until at least 1928. There even seems dispute over whether the first "Standard" (einheits/unity) designs were turned out in Prussian livery or not!

Anyway!

Over the years, I have collected a fair few of the painted "Period" figures and some of the Stadden metal figures (gorgeous!), I wasn't aware of the Edwardian unpainted set thank you. Do you think I could get away with a few earlier figures by 1920?

Cheers,

John.

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