The Devonian

[Mallard60022]

Good evening. Any information on, or links to the above BR WR service stock in late 1960 through 61 would be very welcome.

Many thanks.

P

[chrisf]

First part of the answer!

 

Until January 1960 both Devonian sets were provided by the London Midland Region but there was then a change to one Western and one Eastern, possibly as a result of redrawn Regional boundaries.  The WR based set was in chocolate and cream livery.  As a well-known carriage expert of the time lived near Newton Abbot and missed very little, the consists were reported on from time to time in the RO.  I'll see if I can make a bit more sense of it all.

 

Chris 

[robertcwp]

The summer 1961 carriage workings list both sets as WR but one had an ER catering car.

 

Formation was BSK, SK, SK, SO, catering car, CK, CK, SK, SK, BSK

 

Additional strengthening SK or 2 SK attached in the peak of the holiday season.  The catering appears to have changed from RU to RB during 1961.  Late in 1961, Railway Observer reported that the Bradford-based set had changed from RU E1926 to RB E1668 and that the Paignton-based set had RB W1728.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Phil

 

Are you a member of Robert Caroll's BR coaching stock Yahoo group? https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRCoachingStock/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJma3UxbXZhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE5MzUzNjc5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAwNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEzOTY0NTY1NjA-

 

If you are not it is well worth joining. The Devonian trains are mentioned in the 1960-1 and 1962-3 LMR Midland lines Passenger Train Marshalling book that is in the files section. There is no 1962-3 book in the files section as yet. The 1960-1 book says that one train is WR stock and the other ER. The 1962-3 book they are both WR trains.

 

I was halfway through writing the formation when Robert posted. From the 1960-61 book the catering vehicle was an RF, I always thought these were only allocated to the LMR.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Clive Mortimore

[HSB]

Ian Allan published a book on the Devonian in their 'From the Footplate' series which describes a typical journey from Bradford to Paignton in 1957.

[Mallard60022]

The summer 1961 carriage workings list both sets as WR but one had an ER catering car.

 

Formation was BSK, SK, SK, SO, catering car, CK, CK, SK, SK, BSK

 

Additional strengthening SK or 2 SK attached in the peak of the holiday season.  The catering appears to have changed from RU to RB during 1961.  Late in 1961, Railway Observer reported that the Bradford-based set had changed from RU E1926 to RB E1668 and that the Paignton-based set had RB W1728.

Excellent thanks. I think there is a pic on Flickr of that set, arriving from the north at Bristol, with a Jub! Good pic too.

Many thanks all. I just need to 'represent'  this train if possible as it was a 'floods diversion' northbound on the SR east of Exeter Central in  late 1960 (and on a few other occasions in later times too I am informed).

Many thanks all.

P

[chrisf]

I came across this reference in the March 1960 RO whilst looking for snippets.

 

"Latterly the Bradford train has been all ER except that LMR diner M229M has replaced the crested diner M11M ... One coach is SO E4066, still red-cream, and hte remainder which have changed ownership and prefixes are M to E: CKs 15251 and 15297, SKs 25299, 25464 and 25845, BSK 35140 and BSKA E27075M, formerly SC27075M. M to W: CKs 15014 and 15837, SKs 25389, 25434 and 25600, SO 3701 with crest, BSK 35095 and BSKA 26911M. The WR RU is W1923 which retains its prefix."

 

As Robert has explained above, things had changed by the summer of 1961. How long these formations remained in use is anybody's guess. I believe that the report was contributed by the late R P [Rick] Walford who, apparently being of independent means, spent much time observing coaches. He seems to have had an almost obsessional interest in refreshment cars. Without his jottings we would know even less than we do. A BSKA, by the way, is a BSK fitted with a gangway adaptor so that its British standard gangway may couple to Pullman gangways as fitted to BR Mk 1s.

 

It is probably too much to expect that we can find more info on the composition of the Devonian in 1961 but I will look. Not today though.

 

Chris

[Mallard60022]

Thanks Chris. I really appreciate your time.

Phil

[robertcwp]

Hi Phil

 

Are you a member of Robert Caroll's BR coaching stock Yahoo group? https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BRCoachingStock/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJma3UxbXZhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE5MzUzNjc5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA0MzAwNARzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEzOTY0NTY1NjA-

 

If you are not it is well worth joining. The Devonian trains are mentioned in the 1960-1 and 1962-3 LMR Midland lines Passenger Train Marshalling book that is in the files section. There is no 1962-3 book in the files section as yet. The 1960-1 book says that one train is WR stock and the other ER. The 1962-3 book they are both WR trains.

 

I was halfway through writing the formation when Robert posted. From the 1960-61 book the catering vehicle was an RF, I always thought these were only allocated to the LMR.

If it was a WR, RF it would have been one of the five built in 1952 to Diag 16 rather than the later LMR Diag 17 type of the early 1960s.

[Clive Mortimore]

If it was a WR, RF it would have been one of the five built in 1952 to Diag 16 rather than the later LMR Diag 17 type of the early 1960s.

Hi Robert

 

I thought that was the case but the 1960/61 LMR Marshalling Book states 24 first class seats as for a Diag 17 where as a Diag 16 only seats 17.  I have a feeling the LMR book is incorrect in stating that the catering vehicle was a RF. The odd thing is that the SKs seat 64 passengers not 48 as for LMR SKs. The WR stock was not fitted with arm rests and was intended to seat 8 per compartment, which suggest to me that the LMR book was not a direct copy of the old formation when the LMR supplied the coaches.

[robertcwp]

The bottom image on page 13 of 'Power of the Warships' shows the southbound Devonian (1V39) behind D811 at Powderham. The image is captioned as 1959 which cannot be correct as the headcode system had not then been introduced.  The first nine vehicles are clearly identifiable and are all Mark I stock:

 

BSK - maroon

SK - choc/cream

SK - choc/cream

SO - maroon

RF (Diag 16) - maroon

CK - either crimson/cream or choc/cream

CK - either crimson/cream or choc/cream

SK - choc/cream

SK - choc/cream

 

The next vehicle is partially obscured but most likely to be a Mark I BSK in maroon.  There are two further vehicles on the rear, the first of which is maroon but largely obscured by a tree and the second is a crimson/cream Gresley SO.

[chrisf]

As promised, I have had another rummage through the pages of the Railway Observer.  

 

In the December 1960 issue it is reported that from the commencement of the summer [1960] timetable the WR acquired both trains, with the exception of am LMR RC from the Bradford end, and proceeded to put them into chocolate and cream.  Except for SO W3701 all the previous stock was dispersed, including the adaptor fitted vehicles [see #7 above].  The new rakes were at first very mixed, having mostly chocolate and cream seconds, red and cream composites and maroon brakes and dining pairs, also odd M and E specimens.  [This suggests that the photograph described by Robert above dates from the summer of 1960.]  Now, however, the intended marshalling has been completed and, barring the two maroon diners M229M and W9607W, the Devonian is a truly Western looking train.  "Unfortunately", the report continues, "the old BR headboards and BR LMS-style carmine title-boards have been retained".  I think we normally call these roofboards.

 

Next comes a moment of joy for our Devonian correspondent.  In the March 1961 issue he reports: "The Devonian began to carry WR title-boards in January, of the type with plain sloping chocolate letters on cream, title and route alternately.  From the same date the Bradford-based train has a WR semi-dining SO, W3984 and an ER RF which is in fact E43M, a Stanier 12-wheeler with the prefix changed."

 

After a summer in which much may have occurred but precious little made it past the editor, we reach the October 1961 issue:  "The Devonian has now at ;last a pair of ER standard dining vehicles in the Bradford based set (RU E1926 and TSO E4344) instead of the LM RF E43M and a WR SO.  A point that has not been mentioned is that WR title-boards replaced LM ones the 'direction' was reversed, reading 'Paignton - Bradford' instead of 'Bradford - Paignton'!"  As an aside here, a thorough inventory of catering car pairings in the same issue asserts that there were not nearly enough SOs to go round.  What, then, led the WR to swipe a Restaurant Open Second, W1012, for use as a cinema coach in the Westward Television exhibition train?

 

I was going to copy out the bit in the December 1961 issue until I checked and found that Robert has already referred to it [#3 above].  Phew.

 

It is, I hope, clear from the posts in this thread that formations are not for life.  There are occasions when they don't quite match the CWP either but let us keep the lid on that particular can of worms.  

 

So how does Mr Duck decide when to set his diverted Devonian and what to put in it?  Will there be another thrilling instalment?

 

Chris

[robertcwp]

Here are a couple of photos of the Devonian:

 

 

[CUTLER2579]

I am surprised that the Restaurant Car  E1961 to diagram 23, in BR lined maroon was not used as it was built at Swansea in 1961 and would have been quite at home on the Western Region.

[robertcwp]

I am surprised that the Restaurant Car  E1961 to diagram 23, in BR lined maroon was not used as it was built at Swansea in 1961 and would have been quite at home on the Western Region.

Swansea is a caption error in the Parkin book - E1959-91 were built at Swindon, principally for the East Coast Main Line.  They were built new with Commonwealth bogies and thus suitable for sustained 100mph running behind Deltics.

[CUTLER2579]

Thank you for correcting me on that Robert, it just goes to show you can't always believe the books.I always thought it sounded strange, Swansea  home of the famous Railway Coach Works..

Kind Regards,Derek.

[robertcwp]

Thank you for correcting me on that Robert, it just goes to show you can't always believe the books.I always thought it sounded strange, Swansea  home of the famous Railway Coach Works..

Kind Regards,Derek.

Keith Parkin did not do the captions in the second edition of his book but whoever did made rather a mess of them.

[Mallard60022]

Well, the mighty duck (not my own description I hasten to add!) has enough info to 'represent' the jolly flood diversion Devonian of whenever the flood diversions took place (usually October and December until the river was 'canalised' at Exeter). When that representation will actually run is another saga............

I even have the 63XX Class (Steam) that hauled it west on one occasion from (at least) Yeovil. How that fared on Honiton Incline is anyone's guess.

Brilliant assistance guys and special thanks to Chris F who, as ever, goes that extra mile to dig into his amazing archives.

Quackers.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Mallard60022

[Joseph_Pestell]

I went on to Google to look up info on The Devonian and it has brought me back here! Amazing how often RMweb comes up in searches now; such a repository of information.

[Mallard60022]

May I apologise for not personally thanking you all enough 7 years ago for this information. You thought it was all over! It is now! Only 7 years later.

I am about to select the stock + a couple of variations, for the diverted Train and double check the mention in Trains Illustrated for the time (Dec 60 I am sure). It will be a dog's breakfast of Stock!!!!!

Again, my thanks to all.

Phil