PLM tank loco

[wagonman]

I wonder if the collective wisdom of RMWeb could help me to identify the prototype of this model, built to Scale7 standards by Henri Cibert and shown at the recent RAIL 2014 show in The Netherlands. Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

First clues will be from the number plate on the side of the loco - which I cannot fully make out from the picture:

 

  PLM

4 ???

 

The 4 relates to the number of axles.  There will be a T to denote the tank - although it actually stands for "tender" - which means that French tender locos are actually what we know as tank locos. 

 

 

It could be one of the rebuilds from Bourbonnais 030 (0-6-0 in UK notation) which went into shed operations and gained an "MT" number.

[EddieB]

The PLM had a seriers of 2-4-2 tender locos which were rebuilt variously as 4-4-0s, 0-8-0Ts and 2-6-0s between 1889 and 1926.  The resulting 0-8-0Ts, rebuilt by Schneider at Le Creusot between 1922 and 1926, effectively retained the old boiler and dome, but mounted on new frames and cylinders.  Fifty became PLM 4.AM.1-50, later SNCF 040.TA.1-50, lasting to the early 'sixties; eighty-four PLM 4.BM.1-84, later SNCF 040.TB.1-84, remaining in service until 1965.

 

Some pictures of prototypes are here:

 

http://forum.e-train.fr/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2781

[wagonman]

Many thanks to Andy and EddieB. Closer examination of the number plate shows  PLM  4 . DM . 61 which may or may not be accurate! So I can assume it's one of the rebuilds from the 2-4-2 tender locos, possibly by Schneider in the 1920s. 

 

As I merely want to flesh out the caption to the photograph that will do very nicely. Again my thanks to you both.

[EddieB]

Being able to discern the number helps, and shows the prototype to be a similar rebuild, but from a different starting point.  The PLM 4.DM series were rebuilt from "super-Bourbonnais 0-6-2 tender locos built in Austria (Floridsdorf and Wiener Neustdt) in 1882-83.  Originally 3001-3140, these were later renumbered 31.A.1 - 31.A.140.

 

Eighty of these locomotives were rebuilt in similar style to the 4.AM and 4.BM series by the PLM between 1927 and 1937, with a further fifteen converted subsequently by the SNCF.  They were classified 040.TC.1 - 95 by the SNCF, lasting until 1967..

 

4.DM.61 was built as 0-6-2 3089 by Wiener Neustadt (2691 of 1883), becoming 31.A.61 in the PLM 1925 renumbering scheme.  It was rebuilt as an 0-8-0T by the PLM itself in 1931, becoming SNCF 5.040.TC.61, surviving until 1966.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[wagonman]

Being able to discern the number helps, and shows the prototype to be a similar rebuild, but from a different starting point.  The PLM 4.DM series were rebuilt from "super-Bourbonnais 0-6-2 tender locos built in Austria (Floridsdorf and Wiener Neustdt) in 1882-83.  Originally 3001-3140, these were later renumbered 31.A.1 - 31.A.140.

 

Eighty of these locomotives were rebuilt in similar style to the 4.AM and 4.BM series by the PLM between 1927 and 1937, with a further fifteen converted subsequently by the SNCF.  They were classified 040.TC.1 - 95 by the SNCF, lasting until 1967..

 

4.DM.61 was built as 0-6-2 3089 by Wiener Neustadt (2691 of 1883), becoming 31.A.61 in the PLM 1925 renumbering scheme.  It was rebuilt as an 0-8-0T by the PLM itself in 1931, becoming SNCF 5.040.TC.61, surviving until 1966.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

............

 

That's brilliant. Thanks Eddie. I'm afraid the PLM is rather outside my comfort zone. Is there a readily available source (other than RMWeb) for such information – especially for Ouest/Etat locos and stock, or is it painfully acquired over many years of diligence?

[EddieB]

That's brilliant. Thanks Eddie. I'm afraid the PLM is rather outside my comfort zone. Is there a readily available source (other than RMWeb) for such information – especially for Ouest/Etat locos and stock, or is it painfully acquired over many years of diligence?

Not exactly.  My prime source comes from a series of loco lists prepared in the 1990s and 2000s by an Australian, Dr John Davies.  These ran to eight volumes for SNCF and its constituents.  They tended to be obtainable only through societies and groups in this country, but copies sometimes turn up on eBay, in second-hand booksellers (try abebooks, but there's nothing listed at present) or at collector's fairs.  Definitely worth keeping an eye out for.

 

Volume 1 covers l'État, volume 4 PLM and volume 5 l'Ouest.  For l'État I also have a copy of "L'evolution du Matériel Moteur et Roulant des Chemins de fer de l'État" by Vilain - which I'd also recommend - though the price of secondhand copies on abebooks seems rather high.

[wagonman]

Not exactly.  My prime source comes from a series of loco lists prepared in the 1990s and 2000s by an Australian, Dr John Davies.  These ran to eight volumes for SNCF and its constituents.  They tended to be obtainable only through societies and groups in this country, but copies sometimes turn up on eBay, in second-hand booksellers (try abebooks, but there's nothing listed at present) or at collector's fairs.  Definitely worth keeping an eye out for.

 

Volume 1 covers l'État, volume 4 PLM and volume 5 l'Ouest.  For l'État I also have a copy of "L'evolution du Matériel Moteur et Roulant des Chemins de fer de l'État" by Vilain - which I'd also recommend - though the price of secondhand copies on abebooks seems rather high.

 

 

Thank you. That is very useful information – and possibly expensive !

[Joseph_Pestell]

Have you tried SNCF Society Library and Archives?

[wagonman]

Have you tried SNCF Society Library and Archives?

 

 

AH no, not yet. I'm not a member – though probably ought to think about it !  Thanks for the tip.