New generation of mainline drivers?

[S.A.C Martin]

Hi Chaps,

 

Three months to end of degree and little job prospects as an English student at present.

 

I keep hearing there is a shortage of drivers on the mainline for steam locomotives, or at least those with experience.

 

Therefore I thought it prudent to exhaust every available opportunity before joining the dole queue in August...(!)

 

So, picture the scene: you're 22 years old. Have an english degree. Have some experiences of locomotive firing and maintenance in preservation (four-ish years, with gaps). What is the first step to becoming a steam locomotive driver for the mainline?

 

Where would you go/who would you go to/how long is training/how much is training/and in all, is this a serious job prospect where the demand for drivers is such, or is this but a dream...?

 

Lastly - is job satisfaction high? Major plus point is obviously driving a steam locomotive on the British Mainline.

 

Answers on a postcard, thanks in advance.

 

Simon

[woodenhead]

I would expect that top of the list would be mainline certified with one of the existing TOCs or Freight Companies to drive a train.

[Nortonian]

I would expect that top of the list would be mainline certified with one of the existing TOCs or Freight Companies to drive a train.

 

 

I agree,

 

You would have to become a driver on the real railway first to gain the `route knowledge` before attempting to drive a steamer on the mainline. No shortcuts I`m afraid. Ask `Welsh Wizard` of this parish.

 

Kindest

 

Ian

[S.A.C Martin]

Thanks chaps - thats interesting. So it's not actually about the knowledge of driving the locomotive so much as the knowledge of the route and previous experience?

[Rock & Rail]

Thanks chaps - thats interesting. So it's not actually about the knowledge of driving the locomotive so much as the knowledge of the route and previous experience?

 

Have a look at this site:

 

http://www.railwayregister.care4free.net/becoming_a_train_driver.htm

 

for a good intro to the process of becoming a driver.

[rope runner]

Unfortunately, you're looking at atleast 10 years experience in the engineering behind the Locomotive, route learning, employment in the Industry, network rail training, and probably a whole load more experience, including driving on a preserved lines for a number of years in a capable manner

[PhilH]

You definitely don't get to be a steam mainline driver without working as a driver for a TOC. The best you can hope for without this is to get experience firing, and I mean get experience not just a few months, on a preserved line then put your name forward to get on a support crew. You have to get a mainline PTS certificate which is expensive without sponsorship. As a member of the support crew it can mean 20 hour days doing all the crap jobs whilst others have the fun - all without pay. Once you become known you can then possibly get on the footplate to fire the things BUT STILL AS A VOLUNTEER. That is how it works I'm afraid.

[woodenhead]

Thanks chaps - thats interesting. So it's not actually about the knowledge of driving the locomotive so much as the knowledge of the route and previous experience?

 

Route knowledge is only one part, you'll also need type knowledge, a DMU driver can't just get into a Pendolino and be fully capable of driving it safely. Same would go for steam, an industrial tank on a preserved line is a long way from driving Tornado up the East Coast Mainline.

 

No shortcuts I am afraid, you need a job with a TOC who will train you, then you need to get experience before starting down the preservation driver route and I expect there will be a lot of competition.

[The Stationmaster]

You will not get to drive on the mainline unless you work for some sort of train operating company because they are the only people who can certify Drivers as competent. Learning that job varies in time span but the quickest route used to on former Southern Region areas where there was (and I'm talking some years back) always a shortage of Drivers.

 

Get into one of those jobs and you'll face about 12-18 months from joining to being in charge on your own. Other passenger TOCs are probably similar duration of training plus initial Route Learning. As an example a chap who used to work for me in a clerical grade resigned and went to SWT to train as a Driver and it took him a little under 18 months from joining to taking charge, he subsequently moved to another passenger TOC 'up north'.

 

I'm not at all sure what the picture now is with freight operators but I understand that they used to prefer to recruit qualified folk only as it was cheaper than train from scratch. But you would still have to convert from passenger to freight of course.

 

Mainline steam Drivers come only from EWS/DBS as far as I know (? some of the other tourist type operators although I think not) and you then need to train on steam, which is a bit easier if you have earlier experience on a preserved line. And you will then likely find yourself in front of a former colleague of mine for examination (he models in 3mm scale as it happens - Southern) and once qualified and 'in the job' you will also undergo regular reassessment on steam.

 

What I don't know is how they do the progression from firing to driving?

[Michael Delamar]

Thanks chaps - thats interesting. So it's not actually about the knowledge of driving the locomotive so much as the knowledge of the route and previous experience?

 

 

you also need a letter from our lord!

 

I wish it was like it used to be back in the steam days... walk in and become a cleaner.

 

now ive probably got more chance of getting a game for Liverpool! or going to the moon in a submarine and coming back on a handglider! than ever being a train driver.

 

 

Mike

[millsie]

i have applied to all the TOC companies and non of them are taking on drivers or anything! and looking through the DBS site, the only ones they have available are not in the UK!

so its a waste of time im my eyes even bothering

 

and im 22 lol

 

martin

[298]

There is still the option of starting as a platform or ticket office assistant and working your way up, just like the good 'ol days. A thoughtful company would rather promote one of their own capable members of staff with a proven record than take a chance on a new starter.

 

And there is still an anti-enthusiast culture amongst alot of operators, possibly due to too many fast-tracked managers who have come from outside of the industry interviewing too many platform enders who think their future employers business strategy should centre on sending 66's back to america and replacing them with knackered 40 year old british diesels because they are more "rateable".....

[noiseboy72]

There was a young lady working at Grantham Station with aspirations to join the train crew. To prove an interest, she recorded the number of every GNER train through the station for a month or so and worked out from the times where it was stabled and how many trips a day it did. By talking to enthusiasts, she picked up lots more useful info so that when she went to the interview she sounded knowledagble and interested about her possible career.

 

I believe she was succesful in her endeavours but not sure who she works for now.

[Oldfield_Park]

I'd considered a similar option after graduating (in Geography) last summer and finding little in the way of employment.

 

One problem I've faced, and you might find as well, is that having gained your degree you will find it almost as difficult to get a job that doesn't require a degree as one that does. I've tried numerous times to get some gainful employment with FGW both on the platform and behind the ticket counters, all without success. This is despite having several years customer service experience, knowledge of the railway system and having volunteered on a preserved railway! A lot of employers will see a degree-level applicant for a job and assume that you're after it as little more than a stop-gap before moving on to bigger and better things the second the opportunity arises. This possibly explains why I can't even get a job in Sainsburys...

 

I wish you luck, but if it's anything like mine you may find things a touch difficult.

[Tom Bayford]

We have a few Drivers and passed fireman out on the mainline but thats due to who they know. and as everyone else says its more about the route knowledge

[S.A.C Martin]

Thanks for all your replies chaps - and my apologies for not being around to answer each individually, I have not been able to log on to RMweb since yesterday evening. I will go through each now and read them thoroughly. Thank you all.

 

One thing though - it doesn't look easy, but then again, nothing in life you want is, eh?

[298]

There was a young lady working at Grantham Station with aspirations to join the train crew. To prove an interest, she recorded the number of every GNER train through the station for a month or so and worked out from the times where it was stabled and how many trips a day it did. By talking to enthusiasts, she picked up lots more useful info so that when she went to the interview she sounded knowledagble and interested about her possible career.

 

I believe she was succesful in her endeavours but not sure who she works for now.

 

Is she a Driver for Hull Trains...?

 

There's nothing wrong in showing an interest in a future employer's business, the point I was trying to make is an interviewer wouldn't take a positive view of someone having a biased view how they ought to do things, when the bigger business model isn't fully appreciated.

 

Along with the rest of the world, I applied for a job with Freightliner about 18 months ago. One of the questions asked "What would you do if you were driving, and came across an obstruction on the line...?" Now that's quite a vague question and the space provided didn't really allow for a thorough answer to cover every eventuality, but i'd sure like to know what they consider an acceptable answer and what some of the entries said...!!

 

Another asked what my previous railway experience was? I was unsure whether to say i'd driven a 1922 Electric Locomotive along a road, or a couple of Streetcars full of passengers on a 10 mile round trip. I later realised i'd got the driving itch out of my system, as it would take years of volunteering at a railway in this country or a major change of lifestyle to drive on a regular basis, either through work or as a hobby. I know plenty of people who do work on the railways and have turned their hobby into a regular job, from train staff to overhauling and exporting AC's, but i'd prefer to keep my interest as a leisure escape.

[Guest Phil]

Steam loco crewing on the mainline has evolved over the last decade or more.

 

I was at Bescot for 21 years and spent a lot of time with footplate crews in that time. Bescot lost it's last steam work around the end of 1966 but some of the young hands who were firing then are still on the footplate as drivers - although in their final years on the footplate before retirement from the "mainstream" FOC.

 

It was always the case at our depot that a budding steam locoman had to have been "old school" ie pre 1968, but as time drew on it became increasingly clear that a new method of steam crew recruitment would be needed. EWS set up several classes for "new" steam crews - ours being held at VT Tyseley for BS and SY EWS crews. This involved taking fully qualified drivers and teaching them how to fire steam locos - classroom and practical. i believe similar classes involved Eastleigh and Warrington or Carlisle crews - sometimes using a special train, others gaining experience on planned charter trains.

 

During this period West Coast railways at Carnforth established itself as a TOC, able to crew it's own operations, as well as supplying crews for the Vintage trains operations from Tyseley. A proportion of EWS' anticipated steam work dried up due to this, and some qualified steam drivers retired from EWS, and took up "part time" jobs as qualified steam and diesel drivers with WCRC amongst others.

 

A byproduct of this was that a number of volunteers on steam loco support crews were able to learn how to fire, and become qualified firemen. An example of this is Alistair Meanley, son of Tyseley chief Bob Meanley who has been firing for several years, despite being only in his early 20s.

 

Returning to the EWS steam trainees - although qualified "diesel drivers" they needed to gain hours and hours of experience "on the shovel" so I am not sure whether many of the "new school" steam man have actually crossed the cab into the driver's seat. Certainly one of the BS men has driven steam on the mainline, but quite a few years after learning the art of firing. Others from the W Midlands steam class transferred to other TOCs relinquishing their experience.

 

For someone wishing to become steam footplate crew my advice would be to go and get your hands dirty at a local steam railway - expecting to do that for a very long time before you get the chance to ride the loco and do any work on it. Volunteers at Tyseley and Carnforth are probably at an advantage though.

[PhilH]

We have a few Drivers and passed fireman out on the mainline

 

Maybe as fireman but not as drivers, not officially anyway. In modern times I've never known any Mid Hants mainline passed crew do anything other than fire.

 

Volunteers at Tyseley and Carnforth are probably at an advantage though.

 

Not necessarily - our (MHR) mainline ticketed boys are on quite diverse crews - 60163, 60019, 71000 and the summer operations in Scotland to name a few.

[br2975]

As for putting your first foot on the ladder, and getting a job as a driver......

.

I look at the ATW website regularly, and they've advertised very, very few posts of any description in recent months.

.

In fact, in those many, many months only two driving jobs have been advertised, at Machynlleth and Pwllheli, obviously on 158s in the main.

.

So, not much use if you live in South Wales.

.

However, they have been asking for degree entrants - in management trainee roles; but how you'd fare with a degree in English, trying for a job with Arriva Trains WALES is another matter.

.

Brian R

[The Stationmaster]

Although going off at a slight tangent it is interesting to see the various comments about graduates and the reaction to them as potential employees, together with the views about enthusiasts.

 

A lot of recruitment now is based very heavily on profiling and testing to find a particular sort of person (whether or not the targetted 'sort of person' is the right sort is another issue of course ). Finding your way through this jungle is undoubtedly difficult but I think one thing to be wary of is the 'enthusiast' tag.

 

Such a tag can not only cover all sorts of things but also can be readily misread as 'trainspotter' and that is still, I think, the last person anyone in the railway industry wants to employ. I doubt if any interviewer would be impressed by anyone who knows the complete history of, say, every dmu class currently on the network but they might well take an interest in someone who has an understanding of how rolling stock leasing or track access conditions work. It doesn't matter in the least if you can name every loco working for DBS but if you are tested to have the right pscyhological attributes to be a Driver then you are part way there (if there are any vacancies).

 

Another problem the 'enthusiast' can encounter is knowing too much. There are now many people in the industry with a limited or narrow knowledge of railways and how they work. They are bound to feel threatened by people who seem to know more than they do if what I saw in several years of occasional consultancy work was any indication.

 

As far as graduates are cocerned the 'over qualified' reaction is a real and worrying one. In the past I was always as open as possible in telling people if I considered them over-qualified or ill-suited for a job, mainly because from what I had seen this sort of thing almost invariably led to problems for them (which in turn often meant a problem of some kind for their manager).

 

The advice I would offer to graduates when they get this sort of reaction at interview is to come back hard with questions about advancement and promotional prospects, in other words to show that you have some sort of longer term commitment and aspiration. We always used to reckon that someone seeking to advance in that way was rarely going to spend more than 3 years in a post - in fact that was the recommended career pattern for many of us although that might have changed.

 

Best of luck to anyone who does try to get a job 'inside' in these hard times. And don't forget that those you meet will tell you 'it's not like the old times' (it isn't) or that 'this job's had it' (as someone told me back in the late 1960s - it hadn't, but it had changed and it will continue to change.

[Tom Bayford]

Maybe as fireman but not as drivers, not officially anyway. In modern times I've never known any Mid Hants mainline passed crew do anything other than fire.

 

 

 

Not necessarily - our (MHR) mainline ticketed boys are on quite diverse crews - 60163, 60019, 71000 and the summer operations in Scotland to name a few.

 

Well im not 100% what they get up to but they do have fun! and are operations manager is the one of few people with steam route knowledge for west of bournemouth

[Guest Phil]

Maybe as fireman but not as drivers, not officially anyway. In modern times I've never known any Mid Hants mainline passed crew do anything other than fire.

 

Not necessarily - our (MHR) mainline ticketed boys are on quite diverse crews - 60163, 60019, 71000 and the summer operations in Scotland to name a few.

 

Well im not 100% what they get up to but they do have fun! and are operations manager is the one of few people with steam route knowledge for west of bournemouth

 

 

The prerequisite for driving any train on the Network Rail is displaying and proving route and traction competency.

 

Steam loco competency is obviously required, but "knowledge" is a bit of a grey area. The happenings between Exeter St Davids and Exeter Central a few years ago were considered by some to have been caused by a lack of "knowledge" or "understanding" of that local route, but the enginemen were competent to work over the route and on the locos.