Layout Damaged at open day!

[Captain Kernow]

Really sorry to hear of this happening, Darren. I hope that you get just redress from the organisers. Don't forget, no matter how 'awkward' they may have seemed when you initially spoke to them about it, nothing concentrates the mind like a little legal action coming their way. From what you have said, based on what they allowed to happen and their reaction to your upset, they deserve to have the book thrown at them, so go for it!

[alibuchan]

Darren,

 

Feel sorry for you having had your layout damaged like that. I know it's hard but In a away see it as an opportunity to make it better, change those little details you didn't like, correct that roof that always annoyed you, although no one else could see any issues with it and most importantly keep perusing the organisers to make it right.

 

We have had someone point out that we had a bogie off the track and then go to put it back on I had to loudly tell them not to, as the OHLE in N is quite delicate and we didn't want it pulled down. It's hard enough when we know it's there not to touch it!

 

Insurance is always a pain, When we used to run our exhibition we actually had to as a layout to cut back on the amount of locos they would be bringing for the weekend due to the cost of insuring it. Their layout with all of the stock, doubled the insurance price for the rest of the exhibition. But a big 0 gauge loco shed is only ever going to get that way! In the end they just took responsibility for the other non-GWR steam, half of the stock and brought it and took it home each day.

 

Alistair

[AndrewC]

Believe me, it can. The anecdotes for that are writ very large in this thread.

Its global and not just restricted to the UK. Believe me, the grass is no greener across the pond. Bad manners, self entitlement, feral satanic spawn running wild, theft, wilful damage. Once upon a time a young lad and his father were caught at the exit of an exhibition with one of our club member's Hornby "Thomas" in hand. They first tried to claim they bought it, then it was given to them, then they found it. Etc. Several witnesses came forward to state the kid had lifted the loco from the layout's fiddleyard. The decoder and the owner's initials carved into the chassis was proof of ownership as well. Eventually the scumbags turned the loco over amid a torrent of abuse. This was in Canada not the UK.

[ThaneofFife]

they are legally required to have insurance.

public liability insurance, event insurance, third party property damage cover..... call what you will is 9 times out of 10 purely a commercial decision to either have the peace of mind of it so that organisers are not left to hold the baby say if somebody is tripped up by an errant cable for example....or simply not to bother - there is no legal requirement at all for this class of insurance although generally local authorities and councils and the like would always ask to see proof of suitable insurances before allowing an event open to the public to proceed.  whether than would extend to cover damage to property that was left unattended is another kettle of fish although its not quite the same as leaving your keys in your cars ignition and then leaving that unattended - the layout was simply not manned as i understand it rather than abandoned outside the exhibition.   call it a prudent purchase rather than one the law dictates that you to take out.  im wondering if you yourself have cover whilst the layout is on the circuit but even were that the case I suspect your insurers would frown on the property left unattended. you could possibly put in a claim and let your insurers do the leg work recovering any monies from the other side for you including any excess you might have to pay back if we assume that the damage far exceeds whatever your excess is.

 

if insurance were in force then its highly likely that there will be a policy excess to pay by the policyholder.  the organiser says they have no money to pay for repairs/replacements of the items damaged/missing so I dont hold out much hope that they could pay any policy excess (and it sounds to me like let alone a premium in the first place).

 

Was there any paperwork exchanged perhaps?   still worth pursuing with a detailed letter to the organiser (what are we talking about here £50, £100, maybe £200?)  - if they didnt have insurance then maybe they will think a) about getting cover in future and B) the policy excess might focus their minds more to take better care of property......

[TomJ]

Everytime something like this comes up we get the usual terms 'feral children', 'spawn', 'scumbag', 'youth of today' and so on. No ones yet suggested bringing back the birch or National Service but it won't be long!!!

 

Yet most children and young people are NOT like that, they are charming and well behaved. I take my son (4) to lots of exhibitions. He is well behaved and interested in the show. Most people are very helpful but there are always a few (exhibitors and public) who make it quite clear they'd rather we weren't there. And we do use the safety barriers to rest on because it's quite tiring lifting him up for the whole day.

There are badly behaved individuals of all types and ages. Let's not tar one group will the same brush.

 

 

Rant over and breath

[Talltim]

Bring back National Service

Am I right in thinking that the OP's layout wasn't at a model railway exhibition, but some other sort of open day?

[Pete 75C]

Bring back National Service

Am I right in thinking that the OP's layout wasn't at a model railway exhibition, but some other sort of open day?

 

Yes, the thread is wandering somewhat. Darren had the best of intentions when leaving Torrington unattended on the second day and to repay his trust, his layout was treated with zero respect. Organised model railway exhibitions pose some similarities but surely should be regarded as "safer", especially when the owner/operator is in constant attendance.

[Mallard60022]

Everytime something like this comes up we get the usual terms 'feral children', 'spawn', 'scumbag', 'youth of today' and so on. No ones yet suggested bringing back the birch or National Service but it won't be long!!!

 

Yet most children and young people are NOT like that, they are charming and well behaved. I take my son (4) to lots of exhibitions. He is well behaved and interested in the show. Most people are very helpful but there are always a few (exhibitors and public) who make it quite clear they'd rather we weren't there. And we do use the safety barriers to rest on because it's quite tiring lifting him up for the whole day.

There are badly behaved individuals of all types and ages. Let's not tar one group will the same brush.

 

 

Rant over and breath

Of course, and it is always such a pleasure to see young people behaving in a positive way and adults with them encouraging that.

However there seems to be an increasing decline (in a large minority of the population) of 'knowledge of accepted convention' in all sorts of 'public' activity and how to behave in respect of other's expectations.

For example, and I fully accept these are possibly things that some will not find offensive or unacceptable; they are also not exclusive to young people:

spitting in the street, littering, damaging public property such as toilets and seats in parks, feet on seats in trains and buses, letting doors close in a following person's face, using a phone whilst driving, using really offensive language in a public place, being aggressive towards others such as Train Conductors, mocking a person with a disability and I could go on and on (but I won't suggest the birch or National Service as they are outdated).

Of course and thank goodness that most people are not like this, but I now see (and sadly experience) thoughtless and selfish behaviour in increasing amounts and I feel very sad about that. For goodness sake, at a baptism at our church a couple of weeks ago someone lit a fag during the service (and it wasn't the Vicar or me........); sheer ignorance I'm afraid.

Meldrew.

[ThaneofFife]

Of course, and it is always such a pleasure to see young people behaving in a positive way and adults with them encouraging that.

However there seems to be an increasing decline (in a large minority of the population) of 'knowledge of accepted convention' in all sorts of 'public' activity and how to behave in respect of other's expectations.

For example, and I fully accept these are possibly things that some will not find offensive or unacceptable; they are also not exclusive to young people:

spitting in the street, littering, damaging public property such as toilets and seats in parks, feet on seats in trains and buses, letting doors close in a following person's face, using a phone whilst driving, using really offensive language in a public place, being aggressive towards others such as Train Conductors, mocking a person with a disability and I could go on and on (but I won't suggest the birch or National Service as they are outdated).

Of course and thank goodness that most people are not like this, but I now see (and sadly experience) thoughtless and selfish behaviour in increasing amounts and I feel very sad about that. For goodness sake, at a baptism at our church a couple of weeks ago someone lit a fag during the service (and it wasn't the Vicar or me........); sheer ignorance I'm afraid.

Meldrew.

correct-i witnessed a first hand example in Tesco earlier.  a young lass had her head in the sandwich chiller and dropped a sandwich on the floor.  the assistant who was organising magazines nearby hurried over to help the lady by picking up the pack.  the abuse she doled out to him at an exaggerated high volume was mind bogglingly unbelievable.  She ranted at him "leave it alone, dont touch it, leave it, let me do my shopping....." she wittered on then as she moved away called the floor assistant the C word!  the icing on the cake was she reported him to one of the managers for harassing her.  mentalist but then like a light switch was nice as pie when the manager came around to help her with the errant sandwich.   the guy told me its water of a ducks back - such incidents happen regularly and only yesterday they had a recently released from prison chap walk in up to the security guards and say I want to kill ten P*ki's.   This is the extreme end of things but certainly rams home the issues of no respect.

 

i cant explain why standards are so low these days but it seems to me that as there is seemingly no sanctions, controls, justice, discipline, consequences or penalties anymore for such bad behaviour it will continue unabated ...

[AndrewC]

Sorry Tom I have to disagree partially. Since it was me that used the phrase "scumbag". What else would you call a parent who encouraged his kid to steal and lie. Then verbally abused the security people when they were caught bang to rights? What do you call an unattended poorly behaved child who does what he wants with no parental control, then runs to daddy for protection when he gets in trouble for his actions?

 

Yes there are some well behaved children. No, not everyone is a thieving scumbag. However, the minority are the ones that ruin it for the rest. The phrase "it only takes one" comes to mind.

 

For Darren and his layout, it only took one poor organiser to damage his layout. From that I doubt very much he will be as trusting in the future. That damages the reputation of all similar events. The bulk of good organisers and well staffed events will now suffer as a result.

 

It only takes one uncontrolled screaming child to ruin the evening for a restaurant full of people. There may be a dozen families with wonderfully behaved kids but what is remembered?

 

In our club's case, it took just one young thief and his lying parent for us to ban visitors from the back of the layout. Prior to that we used to enjoy inviting kids to operate. The owner of Thomas refused to risk bringing the loco again. One more loss for the public caused by just one event.

 

It only takes one damaged building, stolen vehicle, or bent bit of fence to discourage an exhibitor, or to force him/her to erect protection which reduces the enjoyment for others.

 

In the past that "one" was fairly rare. These days the "one" is a larger percentage of the population. The reasons are best left to the sociologists.

[TomJ]

I'm not going to justify any if the appalling behaviours mentioned in these threads. But my point is it is just a minority. Yet these threads seems to turn in to a 'how bad is the modern world, what is wrong with today's youth'. I was trying to give a bit of balance to this. I'm not even sure things are much worse than they used to be - look at the stuff about mods vs rockers etc.

 

Yes it does take only one child to ruin a restaurant meal but I've had far more meals ruined by drunken, boorish, obnoxious middle aged folk.

[hayfield]

Everytime something like this comes up we get the usual terms 'feral children', 'spawn', 'scumbag', 'youth of today' and so on. No ones yet suggested bringing back the birch or National Service but it won't be long!!!

 

Yet most children and young people are NOT like that, they are charming and well behaved. I take my son (4) to lots of exhibitions. He is well behaved and interested in the show. Most people are very helpful but there are always a few (exhibitors and public) who make it quite clear they'd rather we weren't there. And we do use the safety barriers to rest on because it's quite tiring lifting him up for the whole day.

There are badly behaved individuals of all types and ages. Let's not tar one group will the same brush.

 

 

Rant over and breath

 

 

Thankfully most children are reasonably well behaved, however far fewer than 20 years ago. On the other hand there are far more badly behaved children and young people than there used to be,

 

Far too often parents, including the so called middle class just ignore what their offspring are doing and have no respect for those who have to endure their behaviour

 

Sadly too many children today think they know their rights, but have no idea of their responsibilities to society.

 

I am amazed at shows where many parents have no idea of how to control their children, they either have no idea themselves or no respect of others property. Thankfully there are those who do know how to behave, who seem to enjoy in interacting with them and normally come prepared with steps etc

 

Children should be allowed to be children in the right environment, but taught how to behave when the need arises.  My daughter thankfully went to a school that kept its Grammar School ethos despite being a comprehensive, all the children were taught how to behave and to be good citizens. I am forever indebted to the head and other teachers who made this happen. Other schools in the area were just not up to the same standard

 

My daughter has kept the same group friends who are their for each other, despite living miles apart. Very sadly one of them lost their husband suddenly, within hours all had dropped everything, including one who lives and works in Switzerland and were together. We have other friends who had children that went there and they all turned out to being equally well balanced and hard working. Just goes to show, children are a product or their environment both at home and school and if either is lacking then thats when the trouble starts

[DavidH]

Entirely off-topic of course, but this obsession about declining manners (as you all well know!) is not new ...

 

"... I find by sad Experience how the Towns and Streets are filled with lewd wicked Children, and many Children as they have played about the Streets have been heard to curse and swear and call one another Nick-names, and it would grieve ones Heart to hear what bawdy and filthy Communications proceeds from the Mouths of such..."

(Robert Russel, 1695)

 

"...a fearful multitude of untutored savages... [boys] with dogs at their heels and other evidence of dissolute habits...[girls who] drive coal-carts, ride astride upon horses, drink, swear, fight, smoke, whistle, and care for nobody...the morals of children are tenfold worse than formerly."

(Earl of Shaftesbury, 1843)

 

"Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We, their sons, are more worthless than they; so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt."

(Horace, 20 BC)

[Pete 75C]

Sadly, a lot of what has been said so far in this thread is why I will never exhibit, even if I do ever manage to produce a layout worthy of exhibiting! Definitely a selfish modeller, me... if I break it, I've no-one else to blame and no reason to complain.

I'm not sure what that says about either me or the public, I certainly wish I felt differently.

With regard to badly behaved children, my children have been brought up with respect and manners only because I've been rather very tough on them and have brought them up the way my parents raised me. An alien concept to a lot of parents, sadly. The actions of a few will always tarnish the reputation of others, I guess it's just the way things are. Doesn't mean it's right though...

Pete.

[The Stationmaster]

Sadly, a lot of what has been said so far in this thread is why I will never exhibit, even if I do ever manage to produce a layout worthy of exhibiting! Definitely a selfish modeller, me... if I break it, I've no-one else to blame and no reason to complain.

I'm not sure what that says about either me or the public, I certainly wish I felt differently.

With regard to badly behaved children, my children have been brought up with respect and manners only because I've been rather very tough on them and have brought them up the way my parents raised me. An alien concept to a lot of parents, sadly. The actions of a few will always tarnish the reputation of others, I guess it's just the way things are. Doesn't mean it's right though...

Pete.

Ah, you sound like just the man to get involved with the Taunton SWAGday modular fun & games should you decide to move westwards as the only hooligans allowed in are RMweb members.

[pete_mcfarlane]

If I might stick my oar in, whilst I don't subscribe to the general theory that children are worse than they used to be, I does feel like there's a specific problem these days where every little obnoxious brat seems to be 'diagnosed' with hyperactivity, autism or something similar which is used as an excuse for poor behaviour. Most likely this is done by the parents after they've read stuff on some dubious pseudoscientific website, rather than by an actual Doctor, so the little horror probably doesn't actually have anything wrong with them and is just badly behaved.

[Phil Parker]

Sadly, a lot of what has been said so far in this thread is why I will never exhibit, even if I do ever manage to produce a layout worthy of exhibiting! Definitely a selfish modeller, me... if I break it, I've no-one else to blame and no reason to complain.

I'm not sure what that says about either me or the public, I certainly wish I felt differently.

With regard to badly behaved children, my children have been brought up with respect and manners only because I've been rather very tough on them and have brought them up the way my parents raised me. An alien concept to a lot of parents, sadly. The actions of a few will always tarnish the reputation of others, I guess it's just the way things are. Doesn't mean it's right though...

Pete.

 

Then you will miss out on an enormous amount of fun. Despite what you might glean from this thread and your daily paper, model railway exhibitions (not open days, sawpmeets etc.) are not riots. As a veteran of well over 100 of them, the damage to the layout has been almost non-existant. The operators do far more harm most of the time.

 

I do insist on barriers for my own layouts and set the layout a foot or so inside these. If they aren't provided I bring my own or don't go. Models aren't left them unattended while the show is open. The public are watched but usually not a problem. Those that are tend to be the older generation who seem unable to comprehend/care about the work involved and look horified when I ask that they look with eyes and not fingers, especially under Hellingly's hard to see overhead wires. I have some sympathy for kids but expect their keepers to get them under control.

 

Insurance for the layout is a requirement too. I care because years ago I claimed when my stock box was nicked from the back of the car in a Little Chef car park on the way home. Again, no insurance, no layout.

 

The OP was incredibly generous loaning his layout. Personally, my reply would have been in the negative and probably finishing with "off". It's a great shame that his trust was abused. Indeed, I think he's been incredibly generous no naming the event. I'd agree with those who say to send a letter with photos. My suspicion is that without an expensive lawyer getting involved, the chances of getting money out of them are slim but it's worth a go and you'll regret it if you don't at least try.

[Pete 75C]

Ah, you sound like just the man to get involved with the Taunton SWAGday modular fun & games should you decide to move westwards as the only hooligans allowed in are RMweb members.

 

Well, a move westwards is on the cards for 2015, but I'm not sure this South London ex-pat could teach you SWAG hooligans much... except perhaps for a few new drinking games in the pub after...

[Pete 75C]

Then you will miss out on an enormous amount of fun.

 

Phil, I'm sure you're right. My loss, I'm afraid...

[darren01]

Hi 

The damage to the layout was not done by children but a couple of adults at the show, one by wanting to have a look at one of the buildings and pulling off the layout to get a better look at it, the roof of the signal box was knocked off by an other pointing at something on the layout. 

The trees got damaged by someone, not sure who or how as they had no one looking after the layout on the Sunday and did not know what happened, other damage was done during the packing up as they did not know how it was meant to be packed and also through being a bit heavy handed with moving the layout to the van at the end of the day.

[ColinW]

Hi Darren,

 

Sorry to hear of damage caused to Torrington.  I enjoyed your thread on building the layout and hopefuly it won't put you off displaying it again (with you behind it obviously).  The fact that some people feel that they can just walk up to a display and start to prod, poke and even pull things off is unbelievable, and the fact that the group who had asked (demanded?) you display on the second day without you being present, and without arranging operators (that you would of been happy with) to run the layout, and then to say that they weren't covered for the damage caused is a joke.

 

Colin

[mike morley]

One thing that occurs to me that is the "Value for insurance purposes" box that appears on exhibition booking forms simply makes us assume the layout is insured.  It is quite definitely not confirmation that it actually is.

[hayfield]

If I might stick my oar in, whilst I don't subscribe to the general theory that children are worse than they used to be, I does feel like there's a specific problem these days where every little obnoxious brat seems to be 'diagnosed' with hyperactivity, autism or something similar which is used as an excuse for poor behaviour. Most likely this is done by the parents after they've read stuff on some dubious pseudoscientific website, rather than by an actual Doctor, so the little horror probably doesn't actually have anything wrong with them and is just badly behaved.

 

 

Pete

 

Trouble is being statemented seems to either be a badge of honour or a licence to misbehave without suffering any consequences

 

Edit

 

I meant to and should have included "for some" I did not mean to tar every parent and child with problems with the same brush, which is not the case as I know quite a few people with children with some form of difficulty who are shining examples of parenting, But I do know of those who fit the above description normally with very little if any at all  learning difficulties , all to often its just down to bad behaviour and poor parenting. 

[Dazzler Fan]

Very sad.

I am hoping ultimately to display my layout locally, and the precautions with plexiglass

and a stand-off rope will cost a tidy sum.

[Giles]

I only exhibit were there are barriers, and control is from the front (to one side) which adds both a little extra distance and protection - in consequence I've had no problems, and no real close calls.....