Layout Damaged at open day!

[Catkins]

Surely this could be one for BlackRat of this parish, I feel sure that Torrington is in Devon&Cornwall's policing area.

 

Good luck with finding a replacement motor.

[Phil Parker]

Looks like an Oxford diecast Moggie Minor to me. Matt paint job. Does the colour matter or will any one do?

[PhilJ W]

I can probably find a spare, as can many of us. I can see Darren being inundated with Morris Minors.

[Colin_McLeod]

He can then clear the goods yard and use the space to model a Morris Minor rally!

 

 

http://www.immoc.com/photos/national-rally-2011/xmg-0883-2-20111003-17894-290.html

[lightengine]

Just been watching the 2nd part of 'Fargo'.

Darren, I think I have a solution should a financial resolution not be forthcoming!

[Phil Parker]

I can probably find a spare, as can many of us. I can see Darren being inundated with Morris Minors.

 

I'll go first. Darren - PM me an address and I'll send a moggie in your direction next week. I know it's not much compensation but it's a start. After all, if we can't help fellow modellers, what's the point?

[stewartingram]

Isn't it the bigger MM series rather than the Minor 1000?

 

Stewart

[PhilJ W]

They were the same size, the 1000 was a development of the MM (headlights on top of wings, larger back window, OHV engine etc.).

PS its an MM.

[Phil Parker]

Well, I have a car. My local model shop didn't have a hard top version so it was this or a Traveller, and I've never liked the woodwork on those.

 

 

So, I need to sort out that blob of paint on the wheel, tone down the shine and I think some new numberplates too...

[trisonic]

I was startled to see an immaculate “Traveller” in Clinton, New Jersey last year.

I found the owner (by dint of parking behind it). The gent was an Anglophile former Colonel of the USAF formerly stationed near Woodbridge, Suffolk. He had had it shipped back in a container as a kit of parts and had only just finished restoring it in BRG. Most of the wood was newly milled by a guy in South Wales.

 

I’ve also seen another immaculate Mk1 Capri 1600. Why? Some guy about two blocks away from me has a small collection of Ford Cosworths - which is a bit more understandable.

 

I really like the offers to Darren. Good people on here.

 

Best, Pete.

[D820]

Can I make it clear that exhibition insurance is for the benifit of the organisers against claims of negligence made against them. It does NOT cover damage to layouts. Layout insurance is for the layout owner to arrange.

 

It may be that the exhibition organisers have arranged insurance to cover damage to layouts but it is not usual. The exhibitions that I am involved with do not.

 

I'm afraid as someone who has orgainesd large and small exhibitions, I have to disagree with this comment.  I always asked for exhibit values and ensured that adequate insurance was obtained.  The organiser/club will no doubt be charging people an entry fee, traders will be paying for their space, refreshments maybe being sold, so threre is no excuse for not covering the exhibitors property for the duration of the event.

[great central]

I'm afraid as someone who has orgainesd large and small exhibitions, I have to disagree with this comment.  I always asked for exhibit values and ensured that adequate insurance was obtained.  The organiser/club will no doubt be charging people an entry fee, traders will be paying for their space, refreshments maybe being sold, so threre is no excuse for not covering the exhibitors property for the duration of the event.

 

Sorry to keep harping on but meil has still not let us know which shows he's involved with, so that we're all informed about shows without adequate insurance.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

 

Sorry to keep harping on but meil has still not let us know which shows he's involved with, so that we're all informed about shows without adequate insurance.

I wouldn't hold your breath for a reply GC. 

 

Has anyone messaged Meil to clarify the situation and see what events to avoid?

[great central]

 

 

I wouldn't hold your breath for a reply GC. 

 

Has anyone messaged Meil to clarify the situation and see what events to avoid?

 

PM sent!

[Captain Kernow]

Hopefully not this bunch - http://www.ndncra.co.uk/ - THE SOUTH WEST RAILWAY RE-INSTATEMENT ASSOCIATION

Oh dear, not that lot again....

[Captain Kernow]

Having read the full story so far, and given that this is a group that is trying to reopen a line, I find it somewhat difficult to believe that 1) they where unable to look after Darren's layout when the assumed responsibility for it, 2) they did not take care with it when transporting it, and 3) they have no money available to pay for repairs.

 

Now that I know where the layout was on display, frankly I'm not hugely surprised to hear about the negative reaction that Darren has had, when taking his complaint to the organisers.

[peter220950]

I have been following this thread with interest, and think it was very poor the way Darren was treated. I can’t help but feel that if someone had gone up to him, apologised, and at least made the offer of replacing lost bits he might have been minded to say ‘forget about it, these things happen, at least it gives me the chance to make it better.’

 

As it is, if I had been given his treatment, I would be out to make sure I was not out of pocket and after a formal letter of notice I would drop it into the hands of the Small Claims Court, it’s a simple process designed for just such occasions.

 

Forgive me then for hi-jacking the thread and taking it slightly off-topic, as it’s in all our interests to safeguard against falling into this sort of situation.

 

It’s the comments regarding Insurance that prompt me to post, it’s something few of us ever really consider, and I raise a few points that may often be overlooked by us as modelers, exhibitors, exhibition organizers, and club members. The jottings are not intended as a peril ridden dire warning of the massive risks we all undertake, and should therefore stay at home and not do anything, - more as food for thought, and an awareness of the risks, so that we can take steps to minimize them.

 

Let’s be honest Exhibitions have been run for years, hundreds per year, and this case is, I suspect, one of a very rare few. We tend to take knocks of models on the chin, but it can prove expensive.

 

So a quick tour then of Insurances and Risks, using as an example my current Club, who are now organizing their 40^th exhibition, and as we shall see, still don’t cover all the problems.

 

Starting with the Public Liability Insurance - which I contrary to earlier posts is not compulsory, protection for the organizers against a claim for damages by a member of the public, be they visitor or exhibitor. This is relatively cheap, often required by the venue, and should always be carried, the risks are minor, as witnessed by the small premiums, but the claim values can be massive, hence cover levels of £5m, £10m, or even £20m.

 

We as a club always carry this cover, as noted above it’s required by most venues, but what if it’s a small club exhibition in a village hall and hasn’t been covered? – It’s worth keeping tabs on what your club is doing, as club members could be jointly and severally liable for a claim, and even if it were dismissed the legal costs could be crippling. If the club, like ours, is a Limited Company then there’s little problem, our liability being around £10.00 maximum, but as part of an often ill defined nebulous group the Insurers will always go for the money, and may target individuals.

 

So thought 1 – Never get involved, or let your club get involved in any way,  in an event such as this if there is no Public Liability Cover. It’s a tiny risk, but a massive cost if it ever became a problem.

 

As Organisers we also carry Event cancellation cover, and depending on the costs of cancellation anyone in a club should consider if they are being put at risk if commitments made by members exceed the clubs resources. For a village hall type show, with a few local layouts, it might not be worth bothering with. We hire a hall at Stoneleigh annually and have to pay, up front, well in excess of 10k, as well as making other commitments to suppliers and exhibitors, if no-one turns up because it snows it could be a major blow, indeed that’s why we moved our dates from January to March, following a poor attendance in 2012 (Covered by insurance)

 

Thought no 2 - as an exhibitor asked to attend, check how substantial the club are, and if they have cover, before you hire a van, fill it with diesel, and turn up, only to find you’re the only one there.

 

The third level of cover we carry, and again I would consider it essential, is for the layouts and stock. You should be able to tell if this is in place as you would be asked to provide a notional value when being booked. The sums involved are quite large, even at silly low prices. Admittedly larger than most exhibition layouts our O gauge layout has 26 4’x2’ boards, £50.00 each (told you I was using silly prices), with an average of 1 point and 3m of track £50.00 and handmade buildings, ballast, etc etc. £50.00 – so the layout at rock bottom cost, with no labour cost, is around £4k, then add DCC control systems, decoders, point motors, wiring and your into the £7k field. Then start adding stock, with coaches at £300 and loco’s between £500.00 and £1,000.00 the norm, and for a layout with 20 coaches, 80 wagons and perhaps 20 loco’s  you can add £20k a total not far short of £30k. For smaller gauges costs are less, but quantities of stock tend to be higher, the principle is still the same.

 

So thought 3 - in Darren’s case in hindsight, always ask for confirmation that the organizer has layout and stock cover, and that large items of high value are covered.

 

All sorted then, follow these points and you can rest easy, or so you might think, and indeed as I thought until I went into things a bit deeper earlier on this year.

 

The first thing I forgot about was the van hire, I drove the Luton van to transport our layout this year, and it’s hired by the club, but I was surprised to find there was no option for accident damage waiver. If I had bent the van there was a £500.00 excess. If it were not hired by the club but by me as an exhibitor I doubt the  Exhibition Organiser’s would have rushed to pay the bill, particularly if as a result of an accident I didn’t turn up? It’s worth getting van hire with damage waiver, not simply the cheapest.

 

The next painful question I asked was when does the layout cover come into effect, and the answer is that it’s for ‘The Exhibition’ – not I believe while the layout is being transported although I haven’t checked this out personally. Our club insurances cover layouts in the clubrooms, but we don’t thing this covers transport either, so there might be a black hole, it’s certainly not covered by car or van insurance. Something to think about and check out.

 

Finally there’s the question of transporting your stock to and from exhibitions, check your household insurance and I think you will find a limit on value of contents taken outside the house. A friend recently checked his policy out and the limit was £1,000.00. Not much use when I was asking him to bring 2 loco’s and 6 coaches estimated at £6,000.00 to the exhibition. Even when he had cover extended to £15k, (as he often takes stock and NG live steam out), the cover was limited to his being with the items at all times, so he couldn’t stop for a pee between Somerset and Warwick!

 

Hopefully a few things to think about, and I would re-iterate not to get too worked up about, just think a bit about what your items are worth, find out if they are covered, and what for, and act accordingly, and don’t get involved with exhibitions and clubs which don’t consider the risks. As mentioned in a previous post, it’s also worth photographing high value items as a record to avoid any arguments with insurers.

[raymw]

Following up on Peter's posting, the following is worth a read (and others) http://www.birkettlong.co.uk/cms/document/_personal_liability_for_trustees_of_unincorporated_clubs.pdf

 

If a claim is made on an unincorporated club, it will be made on the members who appear to have the most assets. There is no point in persuing those who have little to offer, so, if your insurance does not cover a particular aspect, and you own your own house (and other's rent) you will be paying out. Best not to wait until it happens.

 

(note- i have no involvement with the company mentioned, nor any other, but thought it was a succint explanation of why clubs should be incorporated)

 

Best wishes,

 

Ray

 

edit to add note

[meil]

Sorry to keep harping on but meil has still not let us know which shows he's involved with, so that we're all informed about shows without adequate insurance.

The point I was making was the insurance we take out (through our brokers - Magnet) is for our benefit. In fact it is unlawful to take out insurance for something that you do not have an insurable interest in ( you cannot insure a jumbo jet owned by British Airways or your next door neighbour's car - for obvious reasons). We have no insurable interest in your layout so we cannot insure your layout. We can only insure us against damage that we may cause to your layout.

 

If you drop your layout on the way to the exhibition hall or damage it in a motoring accident on the way to the exhibition then our insurance doesn't cover you and why should it? We were not involved in causing the damage.

 

We are not insurance brokers who can arrange insurance on your behalf.

[Revolution Mike]

The point I was making was the insurance we take out (through our brokers - Magnet) is for our benefit. In fact it is unlawful to take out insurance for something that you do not have an insurable interest in ( you cannot insure a jumbo jet owned by British Airways or your next door neighbour's car - for obvious reasons). We have no insurable interest in your layout so we cannot insure your layout. We can only insure us against damage that we may cause to your layout.

 

If you drop your layout on the way to the exhibition hall or damage it in a motoring accident on the way to the exhibition then our insurance doesn't cover you and why should it? We were not involved in causing the damage.

 

We are not insurance brokers who can arrange insurance on your behalf.

 

The Magnet scheme actually specifically covers layouts to and from the exhibition.  The layout wouldn't be in transit if not for the particular show it was attending so it is entirely reasonable and proper that the show insurance covers it.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Andy Y]

We have no insurable interest in your layout so we cannot insure your layout. We can only insure us against damage that we may cause to your layout.

 

If you drop your layout on the way to the exhibition hall or damage it in a motoring accident on the way to the exhibition then our insurance doesn't cover you and why should it? We were not involved in causing the damage.

 

 

If your exhibitors knew that position (if it's correct) compared to the cover they get for other events (of which there of several organisers on this site and indeed within this topic) you may find some would be reluctant to attend. If that position is true I would say that you would be honour, if not duty, bound to make them aware their layouts and stock are not covered in transit nor even within the venue if the damage were caused by themselves or a third party. I'd think the same reluctance would follow but I'd feel that you would owe your supporting exhibitors some honesty in the matter. You may well already be doing so and I may be off the mark but this one smells a bit funny to me.

 

Alternatively it may be worth you speaking to Magnet and clarifying your coverage as you may find you're covered for things that the rest of us are and may be sending out an alarming message inadvertently.

[Derekl]

From the Magnet web-site:

 

"This policy is designed exclusively for model railway clubs, societies or individuals who either organise their own model railway exhibition or attend other model railway exhibitions as exhibitors. The policy provides cover for a range of risks including: Public Liability, Event Contents (including Exhibitors Contents), in transit to and from and whilst at the exhibition. In addition, the policy covers Loss of Money, Event Cancellation Costs, Employers' Liability (to cover injury to your stewards and volunteers) and Personal Accident."

 

(My italics added). It looks like it is intended to cover in transit, but I wonder whether the circumstances of damage in transit may be limited. Somebody who has the policy document may like to have a look and see what it says. The point made above about "insurable interest" seems to me to have some validity, but I am no expert in insurance law and there may well be a way around that.

[Tim V]

The layout wouldn't be in transit if not for the particular show it was attending so it is entirely reasonable and proper that the show insurance covers it.

 

Cheers, Mike

I agree.

 

So I'm expected to take risks with my property, go away for a weekend, work for 16 hours for free, and see the Exhibition Organiser take all the money from my efforts?

 

I think not. As others have said, the exhibitions that don't provide "bed to bed" insurance should be boycotted by exhibitors. Frankly I can pick and choose which shows I attend - no insurance - no visit from me.

[Derekl]

Found the policy document: it is linked to the Magnet Model Railway Insurance web-site. I could not find anything that referred specifically to transit of layouts, but I presume it is under the Section 3: All risks: "We will pay for damage to property belonging to you, or for which you have accepted responsibility....."

 

There are exceptions, including theft of or from unattended trailers or vehicles. (With either higher excess, or total exclusion).

 

Coverage thus assumes that the exhibition organisers have accepted responsibility for the layouts including in transit (or that is the way I see it).

 

I may well have missed something. I do think somebody who is taking out this insurance should ask Magnet a few pointed questions: like where exactly does it say that the layouts are covered in transit?

[Phil Parker]

I once had the "opportunity" to claim against the Chiltern Model Railway Insurance for my stock box being nicked out of the van on the way home. After a bit of haggling, they paid in full as the model was covered from home to home. This was despite the van being unattended in a Little Chef car park while we were inside eating.

 

I'd expect the same cover from any exhibition and normally think to check this. If a show said I was on my own in transit - I wouldn't be in transit as I wouldn't attend.