Rectangular Tank Wagons

[JeremyC]

While sorting out my loft I came across a couple of kits of a rectangular tank wagon [similar to the Dapol model].

 

Does anybody know how late such wagons survived in mainline service. I model BR late 50's so could such wagons be seen that late? One reference states the last two such wagons were built around 1940.

 

Jeremy

[Poor Old Bruce]

I think some were still running about in the mid 1960s but they may have been confined to specific traffic in specific areas by then. I seem to remember a photo of several of them in a train somewhere round Oldham way.

 

Richard

[Pennine MC]

ISTR somebody has linked to a photo on here recently of a couple behind a 4F in the early 60s, probably in an unrelated thread

[Guest Phil]

ISTR somebody has linked to a photo on here recently of a couple behind a 4F in the early 60s, probably in an unrelated thread

 

 

Twas I !!!

 

The link is here ;

 

 

I know nothing about these wagons but was pleasantly surprised that they obviously survived into my modelling period post 1960.

[Leander]

It looks like Wortley Junction on the MR line to Shipley, north of Leeds. Wortley Gasworks was over to the right and the lines to the right of the loco are the Gasworks's loaded sidings , according to Peter Rose's Railway Memories No. 3 Leeds, published by Bellcode books in 1992. This train could have been conveying coal for the gasworks. That could also have beeb the destination for the two rectangular tank wagons.

[Penlan]

......... train could have been conveying coal for the gasworks. That could also have been the destination for the two rectangular tank wagons.

To enable the Rectangular Tank Wagons to convey away from the Gasworks, the resulant Tar byproduct.

 

Penlan

[Tim Lewis]

On the other thread (which I can't currently find), I said that there were some photos of tar wagons in a recent NERA magazine. I've now dug it out: there are pictures of two 14T rectangular tar wagons at Darlington Gas Works in 1960, collecting tar to be taken to the Black Bank Chemical Works on the Croft Depot Branch for processing. I don't think they're quite the same as the available kit version, though I'm not too familiar with it. The ones pictured were built in 1912 and 1913 and have a very large cast iron plate on the (wooden) solebar reading "Thomas Ness Limited Black Bank Chemical Works nr Darlington No.85" (and No. 101).

 

HTH

[hmrspaul]

While sorting out my loft I came across a couple of kits of a rectangular tank wagon [similar to the Dapol model].

 

Does anybody know how late such wagons survived in mainline service. I model BR late 50's so could such wagons be seen that late? One reference states the last two such wagons were built around 1940.

 

Jeremy

They worked well into the late 1960s - plenty here with the yellow loading labels which were not introduced until the mid 1960s

Yorkshire Tar Distillers tanks" (C#1080767) - 75 photographs

http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c1080767.html

 

And here are two, there was an EE class 3 hauling the train.

 

Paul

York

[JeremyC]

Thank you to everybody who replied, now I'll go ahead and complete the kits

 

Doing a bit more research I found that the last RCH standard [102 - 103] for rectangular wagons was issued in 1907 and by WW2 they were regarded as 'archaic'.

 

I wonder why they were so popular with tar distillers, the shape must have made them difficult to drain properly.

 

Jeremy

[craigwelsh]

Would these have been the last wooden solebar vehicles on BR? Most oil tank companies having built something better by then.

 

Mind you http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/p33955107.html has a steel underframe, the wooden ones however all seem to be RCH 1907 type with none of the 1923 features although they do have oil boxes obviously.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... I wonder why they were so popular with tar distillers, the shape must have made them difficult to drain properly. ...

Never underestimate simple inertia in long established businesses, 'Always done it this way lad, none of your clever clever ideas thank you'.

 

But let me speculate, it may well relate to the installed equipment at coal gas works. I would imagine the tar was tapped off by gravity from the bottom of a condensor of some sort , (you really wouldn't want to have to pump the stuff) probably originally going into barrels or other containers standing on an open wagon floor, and this developed in time to a tank wagon with a height similar to a regular open merchandise wagon, simply to allow the vehicle to fit under the existing arrangement for tapping off the tar. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who actually fooled around with the stuff...

 

As a parallel, why did the nationalised railway stay with the similarly archaic 16T mineral for moving coal, to the extent of building a quarter million of them? It was the fit with the coal handling infrastructure, nothing taller would fit under the majority of UK colliery loading screens, and there were serious restrictions on vehicle length due to track curvatures and a built environment that had co-evolved with little Victorian wagons.

[Guest Phil]

Never underestimate simple inertia in long established businesses, 'Always done it this way lad, none of your clever clever ideas thank you'.

 

But let me speculate, it may well relate to the installed equipment at coal gas works. I would imagine the tar was tapped off by gravity from the bottom of a condensor of some sort , (you really wouldn't want to have to pump the stuff) probably originally going into barrels or other containers standing on an open wagon floor, and this developed in time to a tank wagon with a height similar to a regular open merchandise wagon, simply to allow the vehicle to fit under the existing arrangement for tapping off the tar. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who actually fooled around with the stuff...

 

As a parallel, why did the nationalised railway stay with the similarly archaic 16T mineral for moving coal, to the extent of building a quarter million of them? It was the fit with the coal handling infrastructure, nothing taller would fit under the majority of UK colliery loading screens, and there were serious restrictions on vehicle length due to track curvatures and a built environment that had co-evolved with little Victorian wagons.

 

Which is why, in luvverly olde Englande in the 1960s BR were taking delivery of vehicles with three different kinds of brakes ;

 

Air brakes

Vacuum brakes

No ........... brakes

 

 

I have to say that the European railways benefited tremdously after the 2nd World War by having to rebuild, or build new rolling stock which was longer wheelbase and air-braked. The Austrians which used the vacuum brake system prior to the war had a total brake system change through annexation by the Germans.

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

I wonder why they were so popular with tar distillers, the shape must have made them difficult to drain properly.

 

Jeremy

 

 

The storage tanks for the tar were probably built at the correct height for the tar to be loaded into the rectangular tanks. A round tank with a higher filling point would probably have been impossible to load by gravity feed. Seems as plausible a reason as any. Ther's usually a very simply answer why old habits survive well past there sell by date.

Bernard

[JeremyC]

Would these have been the last wooden solebar vehicles on BR? Most oil tank companies having built something better by then.

 

Mind you http://gallery6801.f.../p33955107.html has a steel underframe, the wooden ones however all seem to be RCH 1907 type with none of the 1923 features although they do have oil boxes obviously.

 

They may have been, the last wagons built with wooden solebars were some LNER wooden 13T hoppers built in 1949, but David Larkins 'Working Wagons' states these had been withdrawn / sold long before 1968 [the date on Paul Bartlett's photo in an earlier post].

 

 

Never underestimate simple inertia in long established businesses, 'Always done it this way lad, none of your clever clever ideas thank you'.

 

But let me speculate, it may well relate to the installed equipment at coal gas works. I would imagine the tar was tapped off by gravity from the bottom of a condensor of some sort , (you really wouldn't want to have to pump the stuff) probably originally going into barrels or other containers standing on an open wagon floor, and this developed in time to a tank wagon with a height similar to a regular open merchandise wagon, simply to allow the vehicle to fit under the existing arrangement for tapping off the tar. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who actually fooled around with the stuff...

 

As a parallel, why did the nationalised railway stay with the similarly archaic 16T mineral for moving coal, to the extent of building a quarter million of them? It was the fit with the coal handling infrastructure, nothing taller would fit under the majority of UK colliery loading screens, and there were serious restrictions on vehicle length due to track curvatures and a built environment that had co-evolved with little Victorian wagons.

 

 

Seems a logical explanation and given in the 60's natural gas was coming on stream I suppose nobody was going to upgrade the equipment at existing gasworks.

 

Jeremy

[marc smith]

Wow! - I need some info, and suddenly a TEN YEAR OLD RMweb thread becomes useful   Result
And once again @hmrspaul has some invaluable info and photographs - thanks once again good sir

These may be "uncertain times" etc - but once again, this forum has put a smile on my face

[CKPR]

There are photographs in of rectangular tanks still extant (internal user only ?) at Carlisle and Falkirk in 1970-71 in David Larkins' "PO freight wagons on British Railways: A pictorial survey' (1976).

[brossard]

Since this thread has been resurrected, I have a question.  I'm building the Slater's 7mm kit of a Rec Tank.  The question is, how were the contents removed?  I have perused Paul B's pictures and can't see any evidence of plumbing.  Another member here built a similar wagon and installed pipework underneath.  Wondering if whether the plumbing had been removed when Paul was photographing.  I would like to have clarification so I can build the wagon correctly.

 

John

[Fat Controller]

12 minutes ago, brossard said:

Since this thread has been resurrected, I have a question.  I'm building the Slater's 7mm kit of a Rec Tank.  The question is, how were the contents removed?  I have perused Paul B's pictures and can't see any evidence of plumbing.  Another member here built a similar wagon and installed pipework underneath.  Wondering if whether the plumbing had been removed when Paul was photographing.  I would like to have clarification so I can build the wagon correctly.

 

John

I've just had a look at D Larkin's first volume on 'Non-Pool' stock. Not only does there not seem to be any discharge gear on the two rectangular tanks illustrated, but the majority of pre-vac-braked tanks seem to be similarly lacking. I know that Class A tanks discharged via siphoning into the the 1950s, but the photos included Class B tanks as well, some of relatively recent (though unfitted) build. Is it possible that all these types relied on siphoning, or perhaps pumping, to empty them? 

If bottom discharge was used, I would expect to see a tee-piece under the tank, with a gate or diaphragm valve on either side.

[brossard]

Thanks Brian.  All the pictures I have seen are the same.  Seems a bit rudimentary to siphon.  The model (a tar wagon) I saw has a flattened S pipe with nozzles on either side.  This makes sense to me but possibly not to folk 100 years ago.  Getting viscous material like tar out of a wagon has got to be difficult without a means to drain.

 

John

[Mark Saunders]

From what I understand the rectangular tank was replaced by the elliptical ones with some users as this gave the same or similar height to fit under the loading pipes.

 

 

[eastglosmog]

According to Bill Hudson's PO Wagons Vol 2, the last rectangular tank wagons built by Charles Roberts were ordered as late as 10th May 1946, and he illustrates on for William Butler and Co built in 1932.

Neither of the two (the other is a 1930s ICI wagon) illustrated by Bill Hudson seem to have anything other than a top filler cap.  I have always understood (but have no definite proof) these tanks were pumped out at their destination through the filler cap on top, much the same as the Thomas Clayton Tar boats (which strangely did not have valves in the bottom either...........).

Edited July 8, 2020 by eastglosmog

[hmrspaul]

2 hours ago, brossard said:

Since this thread has been resurrected, I have a question.  I'm building the Slater's 7mm kit of a Rec Tank.  The question is, how were the contents removed?  I have perused Paul B's pictures and can't see any evidence of plumbing.  Another member here built a similar wagon and installed pipework underneath.  Wondering if whether the plumbing had been removed when Paul was photographing.  I would like to have clarification so I can build the wagon correctly.

 

John

He was wrong, despite his expertise. 

They were siphoned - indeed that is how the final ones at Yorkshire tar distillers were emptied before scrapping - and a steam lance was used to heat the contents for discharge. The four we recorded were all different in many details. 

 https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/yorkshiretardistillers

Paul

 

[brossard]

Thanks Paul.  I respect the builder but I don't want to fall into the trap of making a model of a model.

 

John

[jim.snowdon]

59 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

He was wrong, despite his expertise. 

They were siphoned - indeed that is how the final ones at Yorkshire tar distillers were emptied before scrapping - and a steam lance was used to heat the contents for discharge. The four we recorded were all different in many details. 

 https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/yorkshiretardistillers

Paul

 

However, bottom discharge was a permitted option under the RCH specifications for class B tank wagons. 

 

Jim

[brossard]

I was thinking that there had to be valve of sorts at the bottom of the tank to drain.

 

John