Freightliner (ex passenger stock) brakevans in the 1960s

[Guest Phil]

This thread covers the temporary use of ex passenger coaching stock in freightliner trains during the period of a dispute over guards using "igloo" brake compartments on freightliner wagons.

[Guest Phil]

In reponse to an image posted by ArthurK of a southbound freightliner hauled by a Brush type 4, of which the first vehicle was an ex passenger brake.

 

Scuse my ignorance, but what's that coach doing between the 47 and the Freightliner wagons?

Zooming in close, I think I can see a "cross in a circle" condemned marking near the loco end.

I suspect it's one of the ex-coaching stock vehicles which were used as brake vehicles (guard's vans)before ASLEF agreed to the guard riding in the rear cab of the locomotive- there had been a previous attempt to use a modified container as a 'caboose', but the ride was a bit lively, so redundant coaching stock was substituted. Most was displaced non-corridor stock, like the example shown, but there were also some Stanier full brakes used.

 

Aha, thanks. I'd heard of the modified containers, but not the coaches. Did they fit air brakes then? or just piped maybe, as presumably all the FL flats were air-braked from new.

It looks really incongruous, the "modern" container train with the "ancient" coach.

 

They were air-braked. They were only used for a couple of years- I wonder if they were then used in the conversion programme for Carflats which was just starting?

 

Thats interesting. I thought the coaches were only fitted with a through pipe, setter and gauge. From the limited photo evidence I have seen, they were always marshalled next to the loco.

 

There are several thoughts which arise from this. How did the guard keep warm and boil water for his tea ?

 

IIRC - given that the 10' "cabooses that BR built for Freightliner guards had propane gas for heating and presuambly cooking, you'd expect their replacement to have similar facilities.

 

Perhaps the hauling loco steam heated the coach although, again no photo evidence of steam heating.

 

Perhaps the most surprising issue for me is that there doesn't seem to have been any use of prefitted air brake coaches in these trains. Up until Arthur's image, I've only ever seen BR Mk1 Non-corridor BSKs used (is that the correct decription ?) The vehicle in Arthur's image appears to be either GW/BR(WR) or LMS in origin.

 

There's a photograph of a demonstration run in February 1954 (admittedly a long time before) of BRCW built NSU51 on a test run between Birmingham and Banbury. NSU51 was basically an Austrialian single-cabbed A1A A1A diesel fitted with a Sulzer 6LDA28 engine and Crompton Parkinson electricals. What is significant is the loco and trains brakes were air, so the photograph shows a BR Mk1 SK or TSO painted Crimson and Cream, then what appear to be three sets of GER artic suburbans.

 

The caption reads "Commonwealth Railways No NSU51 on a demonstration run between Birmingham and Banbury in February 1954. Note the LNER Gresley Quad-art coach set included in the train".

 

To me, the 2nd-6th vehicles appear to be a five-car (quint) set, and the remainder may also be.

 

So what I am saying is, unless there weren't any Westinghouse fitted single guards vehicles by 1964, I'm surprised BR didn't use them, instead of converting other vehicles, particular as BR were probably anticipating the passenger vehicles to be a temporary stopgap.

 

When did BR cease to use Westinghouse coaching stock from the pre-BR era ?

 

 

 

 

I suspect that you're correct about the brake van being piped rather than braked (like the BR Standard 20t van), Phil.

Would they have fitted a propane bottle for heating/brewing up?

There was probably still some residual pre-Grouping air-braked stock, and pre-Nationalisation stock for the GE Section, as late as the early 1960s (Weren't some BR Standards fitted with Westinghouse pumps?), but I doubt that much of it would have been fit for prolonged running at 75 mph. It may well be, however, that BR salvaged the air-brake gear from some of this stock for use on the more modern vehicles.

 

 

I really don't know to be honest. The thought just came to me as I was writing it, and I doubt propane would be fitted - just a guess. Maybe an old stove and stove pipe but that would have been a helluva a draught up the stove pipe at 75mph !!!!

 

If the guards weren't prepared to accept riding in a plastic bubble on a wagon at 75mph, I can't imagine they'd have been too happy about riding in a freezing cold coach either.

 

There were a couple of Std class 5s - 73030/031 IIRC ?

 

I was thinking of some old Scottish or GE stock, as I presume the old LBSC stuff had met it's maker by then. You are probably right about the suitability of rollicking around between a big diesel and quite a heavy freightliner train, which begs another question - what sort of tonnages were involved when Freightliner started up ? The 1980s would see trains normally formed of up to 20 vehicles equalling 64 SLUs. If each 20 foot box has 20 tons in it you could easily gross over 1700 tons. Those drawhooks on the Non Corridors probably never saw so much weight hanging off em !!!!

 

 

I remember seeing the ex-LMS BTs in use as Guard's accommodation on the first Freightliner workings. As The Fat Controller wrote, ASLEF boycotted the use of the 'cabooses' and the coaches were used until BR and the Union agreed to letting guards ride in the back cabs of diesel locos. What would've have happened had the diesel failed and been replaced by a steam loco?

 

 

 

Ah, LMS Brake Third then. Looks like an improvement on the caboose container idea:

Photo of a caboose here (scroll down): http://www.yorkareag..._5_Wagon-Photos

And one apparently at the NRM (no photo): http://www.nrm.org.u...6-9396&pageNo=4

[Michael Delamar]

theres colour footage of them in the 1966 BTF documentary "forward to first principles" behind green 47s.

and also diesel and electrics on 35mm (btf outakes)

 

highly recommended.

 

Mike

[eastwestdivide]

Link back to the photo in the original thread:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/6933-br-london-midland-region-1950s-80s/page__st__25__p__69456entry69456

and close-up at:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/6933-br-london-midland-region-1950s-80s/page__st__50__p__70996entry70996

[eastwestdivide]

And some more info:

Freightliner brake vans (again): I just unearthed a pile of typed sheets from D Larkin from 1981-ish, which list 4 lots of "Freightliner brake van", numbered B963901-60.

 

The four lots are

3598, B963901-04, Derby 1966

3601, B963905-16, Derby 1966

3614, B963917-22, Derby 1967

3643, B963923-60, Swindon 1967

 

The last lot has a pencilled note by it: "ex-suburban coaches".

 

Nothing as useful as photos, former identities, or diagram numbers, but it's a start.

 

They are also mentioned at http://www.ltsv.com/..._numbers_b2.php as converted coaching stock.

 

And, there's a mention on another forum of a photo in Railway Magazine December 1967

http://www.lner.info...ers-p24360.html

 

Then, the Platform 5 Departmental Coaching Stock books for 1984 and 1985 list the following five conversions from Freightliner Brake Van, all originally BR Mk1 suburbans:

 

3 crane runners, coded QSW (i.e. vacuum brake, air pipe)

DB 963904, formerly BR Mk1 BT S 43383

DB 963925, formerly BR Mk1 BT E 43115

DB 963947, formerly BR Mk1 BT SC 43314

 

and 2 BTU (breakdown train) tool vans, coded QQV (i.e. vac brake only)

ADB 963952, formerly BR Mk1 BT SC 43326

ADB 963953, formerly BR Mk1 BT SC 43341

 

all 5 are described as converted to Freightliner Brake Van.

 

they are on departmentals.com at

 

http://www.departmentals.com/hunt.php?number=963904

http://www.departmentals.com/hunt.php?number=963925

http://www.departmentals.com/photo/963947

http://www.departmentals.com/photo/963952

http://www.departmentals.com/photo/963953

 

respectively, with photos in later life for the last three.

 

All these are BR Mk1s, from two of the four lots, so I wonder if the two other lots represent conversions from non-Mk1s, like the original picture?

[70022Tornado]

I can recall Freightliner rake heading towards Dover through Canterbury East in the late 60's with a two tone green 47 at the sharp end, and towing a Queen Mary bogie break at the rear !

 

70022Toenado

[Arpster]

From the link posted in this forum to all of the issues of Meccano Magazine, there's an article on the 'new' Freightliner trains in the April 1967 issue including a photo of a EE Type 4 on the cover with what looks like a standard LMS passenger brake in the formation and a photo inside of a Brush Type 4 with the proper Freightliner container brake van.

 

Arp

[eastwestdivide]

From the link posted in this forum to all of the issues of Meccano Magazine, there's an article on the 'new' Freightliner trains in the April 1967 issue including a photo of a EE Type 4 on the cover with what looks like a standard LMS passenger brake in the formation and a photo inside of a Brush Type 4 with the proper Freightliner container brake van.

 

Arp

Great find. Just a word of warning - that link is a 20MB download that took me 10-15 mins (on a fast connection).

[AndyD]

From chapter 7 of "Life & Times Series - Freightliner" by Michael J Collins, OPC 1991

 

ISBN 0-86093-455-1

 

The chapter's by Roger Silsbury and lists the vehicles as follows...

 

Number/Donor vehicle type & Number/Converted at

 

B963901 BG M30820M Gushetfaulds 06/66

B963902 BG M30926M Gushetfaulds 06/66

B963903 BG M30962M Gushetfaulds 06/66

B963904 BS S43383 Garston 06/66

B963905 BSK S4251S Garston 06/66

B963906 BS S43382 Garston 08/66

B963907 BG M31065M Longsight 07/66

B963908 BS E43136 Derby 07/66

B963909 BS E43155 Derby 07/66

B963910 BS E43119 Derby 07/66

B963911 BS M43277 Derby 08/66

B963912 BG M30951M Derby 08/66

B963913 BS M43247 Derby 08/66

B963914 BS M43283 Derby 09/66

B963915 BSK M26304M Derby 10/66

B963916 BSK E26579M Derby 10/66

B963917 BS E43194 Derby 11/66

B963918 BS M21036M Derby 11/66

B963919 BS M43257 Derby 11/66

B963920 BSK M26233M Derby 12/66

B963921 BSK M5722M Derby 01/67

B963922 BSK E26360M Derby 01/67

B963923 BS E43133 Swindon 03/67

B963924 BS E43114 Swindon 04/67

B963925 BS E43115 Swindon 04/67

B963926 BS E43126 Swindon 06/67

B963927 BS E43132 Swindon 06/67

B963928 BS E43134 Swindon 06/67

B963929 BS E43135 Swindon 06/67

B963930 BS E43139 Swindon 06/67

B963931 BS E43144 Swindon 06/67

B963932 BS Sc43342 Swindon 07/67

B963933 BG M30427M Swindon 07/67

B963934 BS Sc43311 Swindon 07/67

B963935 BS Sc43313 Swindon 07/67

B963936 BS Sc43201 Swindon 07/67

B963937 BS Sc43340 Swindon 07/67

B963938 BS Sc43315 Swindon 07/67

B963939 BS Sc43227 Swindon 07/67

B963940 BS Sc43199 Swindon 07/67

B963941 BS Sc43330 Swindon 07/67

B963942 BS Sc43331 Swindon 07/67

B963943 BS Sc43215 Swindon 08/67

B963944 BS Sc43332 Swindon 08/67

B963945 BS Sc43202 Swindon 08/67

B963946 BS Sc43212 Swindon 08/67

B963947 BS Sc43314 Swindon 09/67

B963948 BS Sc43218 Swindon 09/67

B963949 BS Sc43200 Swindon 09/67

B963950 BS Sc43322 Swindon 09/67

B963951 BS Sc43316 Swindon 09/67

B963952 BS Sc43326 Swindon 09/67

B963953 BS Sc43341 Swindon 09/67

B963954 BS Sc43335 Swindon 10/67

B963955 BS Sc43321 Swindon 10/67

B963956 BS Sc43337 Swindon 10/67

B963957 BG M30685M Swindon 10/67

B963958 BG M30735M Swindon 10/67

B963959 BG M30739M Swindon 10/67

B963960 BSK M26463M Swindon 11/67

 

Hope this helps,

 

AndyD.

[Guest Phil]

Thanks very much Andy D

 

That is very useful and appreciate you taking the time to list for us.

 

Cheers

[paul-dereham]

I'm sure people are aware of this but I'll bring it up anyway. The use of the brake vehicle wasn't because of the need for braking but because at that stage the unions insisted that a guard was necessary and at that time they wouldn't use the rear cab of the loco.

[Mark Saunders]

I'm sure people are aware of this but I'll bring it up anyway. The use of the brake vehicle wasn't because of the need for braking but because at that stage the unions insisted that a guard was necessary and at that time they wouldn't use the rear cab of the loco.

 

Not quite it was to keep the Guards off the locomotive, not that they would not use the rear cab! it all changed eventually.

 

Mark Saunders

[Fat Controller]

Not quite it was to keep the Guards off the locomotive, not that they would not use the rear cab! it all changed eventually.

 

Mark Saunders

More 'couldn't use' than 'wouldn't use'.. It was ASLEF who objected to the presence of guards on locos. Meanwhile, the NUR were also in dispute with BR over the use of third-party hauliers to collect and deliver from Freightliner terminals.

[roythebus]

• I remember seeing the short suburban brake van conversions at Camden Road in the late 60s being used as Freightliner brakes. they were painted rail grey and has the wording Freightliner Brake on them. Quite how the guard kept warm is a mystery unless they had stoves fitted.

[Mark Saunders]

More 'couldn't use' than 'wouldn't use'.. It was ASLEF who objected to the presence of guards on locos. Meanwhile, the NUR were also in dispute with BR over the use of third-party hauliers to collect and deliver from Freightliner terminals.

This was why Tartan Arrow was taken over by BR!

 

 

 

• I remember seeing the short suburban brake van conversions at Camden Road in the late 60s being used as Freightliner brakes. they were painted rail grey and has the wording Freightliner Brake on them. Quite how the guard kept warm is a mystery unless they had stoves fitted.

 

That was why the ex LMS vehicles were used as they had stoves!

 

Mark Saunders

[jessy1692]

On 14/03/2014 at 14:13, roythebus said:

 

• I remember seeing the short suburban brake van conversions at Camden Road in the late 60s being used as Freightliner brakes. they were painted rail grey and has the wording Freightliner Brake on them. Quite how the guard kept warm is a mystery unless they had stoves fitted.

 

Afternoon all, has anyone a picture or know of a picture of a grey painted brake coach? Would be an interesting addition to a freightliner rake.

Cheers

James

[Pandora]

I think we should have a Freightliner brake coach on the wishlist,  to match up with the Bachmann  Freightliner flats of last year

[Covkid]

On 14/03/2014 at 14:13, roythebus said:

 

• I remember seeing the short suburban brake van conversions at Camden Road in the late 60s being used as Freightliner brakes. they were painted rail grey and has the wording Freightliner Brake on them. Quite how the guard kept warm is a mystery unless they had stoves fitted.

 

 

On 14/03/2014 at 16:49, Mark Saunders said:

This was why Tartan Arrow was taken over by BR!

 

 

That was why the ex LMS vehicles were used as they had stoves!

 

Mark Saunders

 

Returning to this old thread, yes Mark I had come to that conclusion, but I don't recall every seeing an NPCCS vehicle with a stove pipe sticking out the roof, in the manner of goods brakevans.  Perhaps they were nearly flush ?

[Covkid]

1 hour ago, Pandora said:

I think we should have a Freightliner brake coach on the wishlist,  to match up with the Bachmann  Freightliner flats of last year

 

I imagine an enterprising model finisher could offer a batch of both the 50" LMS BG (Bachmann or Hornby), and the Bachmann BR Mk1 non corridor BT in a suitable livery. 

[russ p]

I would think they gas bottles in the van area, I do wonder on nights if the guards got in the former passenger area assuming they left the seat cushions in the compartments 

[Wickham Green]

18 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

 

Returning to this old thread, yes Mark I had come to that conclusion, but I don't recall every seeing an NPCCS vehicle with a stove pipe sticking out the roof, in the manner of goods brakevans.  Perhaps they were nearly flush ?

Nearly flush in the 'Stove R' vans ....... and not quite so flush in the Southern 'B' & 'BY' ( where stove fitted ).

[The Johnster]

I believe the silly little fibreglass guard's containers had bottled gas heating which must have caused terrible condensation problems, but have never heard that the converted BGs and BSKs had anything more than the electric food warming cabinet, hopelessly inadequate on a cold night at Freightliner speeds.  A coal stove would have been a fire risk I suspect and I do not recall them being used on the Freightliner brake vans.  As has been said, ASLEF objected to guards on the locos; were the brake vans marshalled at the front and steam heated?  

 

The manning of Freightliner trains was thought out poorly, BR putting themselves in a position such that it looked to the men that things were being steamrollered so that the trains didn't have a guard at all and that the secondman's job was under threat.  The matter led to dispute and eventually the 1969 'single manning agreement' between BR, ASLEF, and the NUR, conflated with the Freightliner dispute in general perception.  Single manning was in fact a separate issue allowing any fully fitted train, not just Freightliner traffic,  to have a guard riding in the back cab of the loco, and any train to be 'single manned' in the sense that there was only one man from the footplate line of promotion, the driver, aboard the loco, with the guard allowed to act as secondman for a distance of 15 miles from the shed aboard a light engine en route to pick up a train.  Guards from this time on booked on at loco depots, not freight yards or depots and stations; the term 'traincrew' came into use.  Guard's were allowed to act as secondmen on light engines for any distance returning to their home depot.  We had a single manned turn at Canton in the 70s that involved the guard acting as secondman between Margam Hump Reception and Swansea High Street Goods, which the local unions' LDC committees had agreed to. 

 

Some turns remained double manned, and of course any job requiring steam heating required a secondman.  Secondmen were also required according to the terms of the agreement on any special or out of course working, any light engine movements between depots from the home depot, and where the driver could not be given a 'physical needs' break between the 5th and 7th (IIRC) hour of his duty, or if he was booked on a duty that exceeded 8 hours in duration.  Diesel and Electric locos had basic toilet facilities in the engine rooms and cooking or at least food warming facilities.  Single manned duties for drivers were to booked times that accommodated this, but late running and overtime might result in a secondman being requested.  

 

Single manning in this sense was of course already common on multiple unit trains and had been since they were introduced in the late 19th century, but of course such trains had guards anyway, even as empty stock.  I  once worked a single empty DMS from a 116 set from Swindon works to Canton, on which the only suitable accommodation was of course the secondman's position, and I am still uncertain as to how this stood in relation to the single manning agreement.  As a special working it should have had a secondman, but was not a light engine, so where is the guard officially supposed to ride?  Another anomaly was double headed class 20s, as in the case of a double headed train the guard had to ride on the leading loco in order to remain in bell communication with the driver, but there was no back cab for him.  The only 20s I ever dealt with were on part fitted trains and the guard had a proper brake van to ride in, but weren't they used on Toton MGR traffic?

 

I joined the railway as a freight guard at Canton in 1971, and the bitterness and resentment generated by these disputes and agreements were still palpable.  Staff morale was at a low ebb, after Beeching and  a decade of major change and redundancies, and we were objectified as 'back cab jockeys', though expected to learn roads and work loose coupled trains over them just the same; you had an uphill struggle to 'prove your worth' before being accepted by the old timers (years of 'dead men's shoes' ensured that all drivers and most secondmen were of this persuasion, and the older guards resented us as well).  

 

We were off the street railwaymen, and to be honest one or two of us were pretty useless.  One acquired the nickname 'Harpic', cos he drove you clean around the bend, and there was a 'Thrombosis', nothing but a bloody clot wandering aimlessly around the system.  But most of us put the effort in and learned the job properly despite having to put up with prejudices which were not our fault.  It did not take long for us to become 'one of the lads', most of us anyway, but there was some real unpleasantness that did nobody any good for a while, and I was more than once told to f off to the back cab where you belong...  Some drivers would ask you test route knowledge questions; I was once asked the number of wagons that could be accommodated in the down loop at Pandy on the Hereford road.  I replied that you could have as many as you liked as long as you didn't mind them being in a heap at the bottom of the bank, as there was no loop, up or down, at Pandy...

 

Most drivers quickly realised that having a guard isolated in the back cab with only the fire bell test button for communication when they could have company in the front able to perform as a basic secondman for signal sighting and train checking lookout purposes, drop off the loco to phone signalmen in the rain, help keep him from dozing in the small wee hours, and, most importantly, make tea, was pretty pointless.  There was, in truth, little point in anybody but the driver being there at all on a fully fitted train in an MAS signalled area, but there was still plenty of semaphore mileage in which protection in rear with detonators had to be taken into account.  On fully fitted work, most of us rode in the front cab secondman's seat most of the time in practice, or stood at the back of the cab if the job was double manned having been summoned by the bell to share tea.  But even when we were booked as acting secondmen off the shed, the proprieties had to be observed; you asked the driver if you could come aboard his loco, and waited for him to tell you which cab he wanted you to ride in once you'd coupled to the train.  

 

[markw]

On 24/10/2019 at 16:19, russ p said:

I would think they gas bottles in the van area, I do wonder on nights if the guards got in the former passenger area assuming they left the seat cushions in the compartments 

For safety reasons gas bottles would not be in the van area where any escaping gas could mix with air to form an explosive mixture, they would be in a vented box on the underframe.

[Gibbo675]

Hi Chaps,

 

Here are some photos of converted coaches and one of a caboose that I made:

 

 

 

 

 

Gibbo.

[russ p]

10 hours ago, markw said:

For safety reasons gas bottles would not be in the van area where any escaping gas could mix with air to form an explosive mixture, they would be in a vented box on the underframe.

 

I think the bottles were inside the caboose,  I wonder if the underfloor bottle rule was for passenger carrying vehicles. 

I cant see any boxes on the BS but can't think of any other way of heating the van