GWR - Penzance Flower Traffic 1898

[Penlan]

Following my comment re. St. Rush at Nescot http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83936-nescot-epsom-and-ewell-mrc-2627-april/page-2&do=findComment&comment=1434060 and reference to an early Railway Magazine Article, here are the photo's.

 

They appeared in Railway Magazine, Vol. 1V, Jan - June 1899, under the topic -

'How Railways Deal with Special Classes of Traffic.

1V. - Flowers and Vegetables from West Cornwall and the Scilly Isles'. 

 

This photo shows the loading dock which is the same one as the Siphons are at, in Dave Searle's posting #22 at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83936-nescot-epsom-and-ewell-mrc-2627-april/

The Vans are Y2's, I have 4 kits in 4mm from the 'Great Western Study Group', which I think are now sold by David Geen. 

The building in the background is the Goods Shed at the start of Albert Pier, though not modelled on the St. Rush layout.

 

 

 

 

This is the train departing, the road to the left is Chyandour Cliff and the large Chimneys in the background on the left are on the former loco shed. - I admit the road looks wider than it is now in 2014.

 

 

This is the train (almost) ready to depart with six Y2's and an old NPCS Luggage Brake Van.

 

 

... and finally, I think this has to be alongside the passenger platform at the neck to the Albert Pier sidings, with St Michaels Mount on the Horizon.  I believe the whitish line in the bottom left hand corner to be the platform edging, though of course it's 40 years before WW2 and painted platform edges.....

 

 

Finally, here's a rough plan from circa 1890 -

The Blue is the Goods Shed at the start of Albert Pier.

The Red is the Loco Shed, and

The Green is the platform edge I believe the Broccolies being loaded at.

 

[D869]

Thanks for posting those.

 

There are certainly some photos that are new to me amongst these and they provide some rare views of the south side of the goods shed (which is on our 'to do' list for St Ruth).

 

We still lack any photos of the area near to fence or wall at the end of the yard, entrances, weighbridge etc if anyone knows of any

 

I think that the 'flower loading' photos were taken on one of the two roads (both with loading banks) that end up in the open space to the south west of the goods shed after branching out from a single road that passes to the west of the shed. Other photos show that the east face of the passenger platform had a fence at this time so vehicles would not be loaded there.

 

The photo of the station throat is interesting, particularly in that it shows the 2 arm backing signal. These photos date from before double track and before the 'sea siding' so I suspect they apply to shunting moves into the then headshunt and crossing over moves for locos heading to the engine shed.

 

The narrow walkway against the sea wall is something that I've not seen before. I wonder if this might be a ticket collecting platform.

 

The 'brocolli loading' photo is I think taken further up the line but still obviously in Mounts Bay. The Mount looks too close for Penzance and there is a grassy bank with a fence on top that doesn't fit with the strongly defended reclaimed land on which the station and goods yard are built. Having checked the Cooke plans there was a dock at Ponsandane in 1906 (possibly opened in 1893) and there were also sidings at Marazion (although Cooke does not show a loading bank in 1900) so I think it's one or other of these places.

 

Is the commodity in the photo really broccoli? The items in the foreground look more like bundles of something long and thin or could possibly be some sort of elongated basket.

 

Regards, Andy

[buffalo]

What a wonderful set of photos.

 

The Y2s look to be the later and slightly less numerous version with ventilation slots only near the top and bonnet vents on the ends. Can you read the number on the one in the second photo? The kit, on the other hand, is the earlier type with slots between each plank and no bonnet, as with the Didcot example (though that looks a little odd with its 1890ish livery and post-1909 DC brake levers).

 

The brake van is interesting. It looks very similar to the one in Fig 16 in the first volume of Russell's coach book, though minor differences including the ventilators on the doors and dog box, and the position of the oil lamps suggest it may be a later version.

 

...Is the commodity in the photo really broccoli? The items in the foreground look more like bundles of something long and thin or could possibly be some sort of elongated basket.

 

I see what you mean about the ends of the containers, though I suspect it may just be packing material of some form. Where you can see the sides of the containers, there are quite regularly spaced white objects that could well be cauliflower heads, so I would say it's definitely broccoli.

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for posting those.

 

There are certainly some photos that are new to me amongst these and they provide some rare views of the south side of the goods shed (which is on our 'to do' list for St Ruth).

 

We still lack any photos of the area near to fence or wall at the end of the yard, entrances, weighbridge etc if anyone knows of any

 

I think that the 'flower loading' photos were taken on one of the two roads (both with loading banks) that end up in the open space to the south west of the goods shed after branching out from a single road that passes to the west of the shed. Other photos show that the east face of the passenger platform had a fence at this time so vehicles would not be loaded there.

 

The photo of the station throat is interesting, particularly in that it shows the 2 arm backing signal. These photos date from before double track and before the 'sea siding' so I suspect they apply to shunting moves into the then headshunt and crossing over moves for locos heading to the engine shed.

 

The narrow walkway against the sea wall is something that I've not seen before. I wonder if this might be a ticket collecting platform.

 

The 'brocolli loading' photo is I think taken further up the line but still obviously in Mounts Bay. The Mount looks too close for Penzance and there is a grassy bank with a fence on top that doesn't fit with the strongly defended reclaimed land on which the station and goods yard are built. Having checked the Cooke plans there was a dock at Ponsandane in 1906 (possibly opened in 1893) and there were also sidings at Marazion (although Cooke does not show a loading bank in 1900) so I think it's one or other of these places.

 

Is the commodity in the photo really broccoli? The items in the foreground look more like bundles of something long and thin or could possibly be some sort of elongated basket.

 

Regards, Andy

I agree with Nick about the produce being broccoli - cut by the stalk back then I would assume.

 

As far as the Backing Signal is concerned it very clear applies to the adjacent line and that line would be a Down Line - i.e. the normal direction of travel is towards the camera, moves which reverse would be governed by the Backing Signal.  if the line was used by running movements away from the camera a Backing signal would not be used to signal shunting movements of any sort unless it was subsidiary to a running signal and that one does not appear to be subsidiary unless the running arm is obscured by steam from the train on the left.

 

While I can't find a signalling diagram for that period I wonder if the further line was actually an arrival line and was not used by Up direction running movements?

[Penlan]

...... Can you read the number on the one in the second photo? 

No,  ..... please bear in mind these photo's are larger than the originals by about x 2 and the originals are poor prints in the Railway Mag.  I've done bit of PhotoShop.... 

 

I tried the Gibson Collection of photo's held by both a shop on St. Mary's and the Morrab Library Collection in PZ, but neither place had the original glass negs or copies as prints, or at least they couldn't readily find them at the time.

 

I will have a browse to see if there's any photo's of the weighbridge etc., but it may take some time .......

 

Although presumably all taken around the same time, the loading siding with the flowers and Y2 Vans, has three different GWR style/lettering Carts on it.

 

These look easier to letter than my LNWR one ....

 

 

The Yellow blob on the bridge pier behind, is an AA village sign, discussed here >> http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/26426-aa-village-signs/

[buffalo]

No,  ..... please bear in mind these photo's are larger than the originals by about x 2 and the originals are poor prints in the Railway Mag.  I've done bit of PhotoShop....

 

Thanks, I thought they might be. It looked to me like it might be 47823 which would put it into one of the dual-braked lots...

 

Nick

[Friar Tuck]

Regarding views of the goods yard, Britain from Above has a very distant view dated 1932

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw039838?search=penzance&ref=3.

 

If of use, it may be possible to obtain an enlargement.

[D869]

As far as the Backing Signal is concerned it very clear applies to the adjacent line and that line would be a Down Line - i.e. the normal direction of travel is towards the camera, moves which reverse would be governed by the Backing Signal.  if the line was used by running movements away from the camera a Backing signal would not be used to signal shunting movements of any sort unless it was subsidiary to a running signal and that one does not appear to be subsidiary unless the running arm is obscured by steam from the train on the left.

 

While I can't find a signalling diagram for that period I wonder if the further line was actually an arrival line and was not used by Up direction running movements?

 

Hi Mike,

 

I suspect that ‘lost signalling diagrams of Penzance’ is a topic that could run and run. Its heritage as first a standard gauge, then mixed, then standard again station and the restrictions imposed by the sea wall gave rise to some unusual arrangements.

 

I have not found any readily available signalling plan from prior to the 1938 rebuild. My enquiry to the SRS yielded an archaic mixed gauge era sketch but everything between then and 1938 is (as far as I know) missing.

 

The Cooke plans show 3 distinct pre-1938 layouts. These photos are from 1899 so that probably means that we’re talking about an arrangement that lasted from 1892 until at latest 1921. The goods yard access changed as early as 1906.

 

I don’t know of any other photos showing this signal. Your point about a possible hidden running arm is interesting. I may be reading a bit too much into the photo, but I think that the inclined part of the ladder is continuing upwards rather than stopping at the lamp platform for the upper backing arm. The two lamp platforms are of similar design. If the upper one was also the top one then wouldn’t they have been more likely to use a simple square platform and hoop at the back of the post?

 

Regards, Andy

[D869]

Regarding views of the goods yard, Britain from Above has a very distant view dated 1932

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw039838?search=penzance&ref=3.

 

If of use, it may be possible to obtain an enlargement.

 

Thanks FT. I'm a frequent visitor to Britain From Above so I don't know how I missed this.

 

Enlargements are easy - if you register for a (free) login then you can pan and zoom on the images yourself. A bit fuzzy on the 1930s images at full zoom but very useful nevertheless.

 

I also found another one...

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw039841?name=PENZANCE&gazetteer=penzance&POPULATED_PLACE=PENZANCE&UNITARY_AUTHORITY=CORNWALL&searchCountry=3&start=1&end=21&ref=3

 

Regards, Andy

[The Stationmaster]

Hi Mike,

 

I suspect that ‘lost signalling diagrams of Penzance’ is a topic that could run and run. Its heritage as first a standard gauge, then mixed, then standard again station and the restrictions imposed by the sea wall gave rise to some unusual arrangements.

 

I have not found any readily available signalling plan from prior to the 1938 rebuild. My enquiry to the SRS yielded an archaic mixed gauge era sketch but everything between then and 1938 is (as far as I know) missing.

 

The Cooke plans show 3 distinct pre-1938 layouts. These photos are from 1899 so that probably means that we’re talking about an arrangement that lasted from 1892 until at latest 1921. The goods yard access changed as early as 1906.

 

I don’t know of any other photos showing this signal. Your point about a possible hidden running arm is interesting. I may be reading a bit too much into the photo, but I think that the inclined part of the ladder is continuing upwards rather than stopping at the lamp platform for the upper backing arm. The two lamp platforms are of similar design. If the upper one was also the top one then wouldn’t they have been more likely to use a simple square platform and hoop at the back of the post?

 

Regards, Andy

Good point about the ladder Andy as it does indeed appear to continue upwards, similarly the Lampman's platforms might be a guide although they did vary for all sorts of reasons.

[Miss Prism]

The PBV is a flat-sided predecessor of the V2. (Which means it predates 1876!)

[buffalo]

The PBV is a flat-sided predecessor of the V2. (Which means it predates 1876!)

 

Indeed, and very tempting for a scratchbuild now that we know they could have been used in this way (although it's obvious when you think about it). I don't think I've seen one before other than with other coaching stock.

 

Nick

[davidbr]

I have a recollection of seeing, a few years back, an article on the broccoli traffic.  I can't lay my hands on it but I seem to remember it being loaded a bit further up the line at sidings near Longrock, a little over a mile from Penzance.

[The Stationmaster]

I have a recollection of seeing, a few years back, an article on the broccoli traffic.  I can't lay my hands on it but I seem to remember it being loaded a bit further up the line at sidings near Longrock, a little over a mile from Penzance.

In later years it was definitely loaded at Ponsandane (and possibly also at Marazion?) owing to the need to shift large amounts of traffic in a very short time.

[Porcy Mane]

I have a recollection of seeing, a few years back, an article on the broccoli traffic.  I can't lay my hands on it but I seem to remember it being loaded a bit further up the line at sidings near Longrock, a little over a mile from Penzance.

Backtrack magazine; Volume 7; 1993; pp 118-125  ?

 

There was also a series of official photographs originally used to promote the daily springtime Class C freight that was published in BRILL (I think) It showed flowers being unloaded from the Scillonian (II), Flowers being loaded at PZ (For Covent Gdn.) and boxed fish being picked up en route. Can't remember publication date.

An issue of  Transport Age used a phot from the same series (but in colour) that showed Daffs being offloaded from the Scillionian direct onto BR lorries for transport round to the Station

 

Hth

Porcy

[Penlan]

Mention of the PBV and survival from early times, again I have a LNWR ex. PBV on the layout, by 1900 it was being used as an Engineering Dept., BV.

I believe it's one of the 1860's Joseph Wright constructed PBV's.