Dave F's photos - ongoing - more added each day

[Clive Mortimore]

love the 309s, you even managed to get the griddle cars (at a distance).

Despite diagram 426 calling them Griddle Cars, they were only ever lettered BUFFET.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Despite diagram 426 calling them Griddle Cars, they were only ever lettered BUFFET.

 

Isn't that how you personally spell griddle anyway?

 

Mike.

[Clive Mortimore]

Isn't that how you personally spell griddle anyway?

 

Mike.

 

love the 309s, you even managed to get the griddle cars (at a distance).

Only copied. You know I have dyslexia.

[DaveF]

The Midland south of Leicester for today's set of photos.

 

As you expect, all are Class 45 and 46 hauled trains.

 

 

Kibworth North Class 45 121 down April 73 J3175  14.30 St Pancras to Derby

 

 

Kibworth North Class 46 151 down April 73 J3176 15.05 St Pancras to Sheffield

 

 

Kibworth North Class 45 up April 73 J3177  15.00 Derby to St Pancras

 

 

Wellingborough Class 45 probably 16.07 Derby to St Pancras 9th Aug 77 C3439

 

 

Wellingborough 45106 down 9th Aug 77 C3440  probably 16.50 St Pancras to Nottingham

 

 

David

Edited June 17, 2017 by DaveF

[leopardml2341]

Dave,

 

Think J3176 is a '46'

 

Based on number, side triangular grille and headcode style.

[DaveF]

Dave,

 

Think J3176 is a '46'

 

Based on number, side triangular grille and headcode style.

 

 

That might teach me not to put the Class number in the caption and then adding the loco number without rechecking the Class.

 

Thanks for pointing it out.

 

David

[JeffP]

J3176 can't be 46 151, they stopped at 46 056

[leopardml2341]

J3176 can't be 46 151, they stopped at 46 056

Pre-TOPS it can be as (D)151.....

[DaveF]

J3176 can't be 46 151, they stopped at 46 056

 

 

Pre-TOPS it can be as (D)151.....

 

 

As Andy says the loco had not yet been renumbered into the TOPS system.    Obviously it had lost the "D" prefix.

 

It is always difficult to know how to represent numbers in pre TOPS days, whatever I do seems to confuse people - during this thread I've made several attempts at it.  

 

Perhaps I should simply avoid using TOPS Class numbers in the earlier photos - but then many other readers will be confused.

 

David

Edited June 16, 2017 by DaveF

[leopardml2341]

If it helps, I'm tending towards referring to pre TOPS locos by their 'Type' class e.g. English Electric Type 1 or their accepted nickname e.g. 'Peak'; only when they have gained TOPS numbers do I refer to the by class, in this case 20 and 44/45/46 as appropriate.

 

When I remember that is

Edited June 16, 2017 by leopardml2341

[DaveF]

If it helps, I'm tending towards referring to pre TOPS locos by their 'Type' class e.g. English Electric Type 1 or their accepted nickname e.g. 'Peak'; only when they have gained TOPS numbers do I refer to the by class, in this case 20 and 44/45/46 as appropriate.

 

When I remember that is

 

 

I have thought of that, but then I cannot search photos by class which I often need to do for my own purposes.

 

Also in some cases during the transition to TOPS the number is too small (and cannot be read) in the image to decide which style of numbering has been used.

 

I don't think there is an easy answer.

 

David

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

 

I don't think there is an easy answer.

 

David

 

Post the pictures captionless, and we'll make it up in our own minds as we go along!

 

Mike.

[leopardml2341]

Post the pictures captionless, and we'll make it up in our own minds as we go along!

 

Mike.

Isn't that what we do anyway?

[Market65]

Hi, Dave. I like the Midland photo's. The Peaks were one of the iconic first generation diesel locomotives. The last photo' of 45106 at Wellingborough, 9th August, 1977, shows the grandeur of the Peaks so perfectly.

 

With warmest regards,

 

Rob.

[mark54]

I think I have a full house today:

 

1P18 was the 14:30 St Pancras-Derby

1E19 was the 15:05 St Pancras-Sheffield (via Nottingham). This train would overtake the 14:30 (which was a semi-fast) at Leicester, where there was cross-platform change between the 2 trains.

1C76 was the 15:50 Derby-St Pancras

C3439 was I think the 17:00 Nottingham-St Pancras from the formation and sun position. 9th Aug 77 was a Saturday and the train was departing having just stopped at the station.

C3440 would therefore be the 17:16SO St Pancras-Nottingham which was about to stop, or has stopped at the station.

[DaveF]

I think I have a full house today:

 

1P18 was the 14:30 St Pancras-Derby

1E19 was the 15:05 St Pancras-Sheffield (via Nottingham). This train would overtake the 14:30 (which was a semi-fast) at Leicester, where there was cross-platform change between the 2 trains.

1C76 was the 15:50 Derby-St Pancras

C3439 was I think the 17:00 Nottingham-St Pancras from the formation and sun position. 9th Aug 77 was a Saturday and the train was departing having just stopped at the station.

C3440 would therefore be the 17:16SO St Pancras-Nottingham which was about to stop, or has stopped at the station.

 

 

Mark,

 

That's fantastic, many thanks once again, you are very close to a full house.

 

In 1977 the 9th August was actually  a Tuesday, but the timing is not too far out.  My old calendar must be different from yours..

 

I had an East Midlands Ranger ticket that week and  that day having already visited Leicester, Nuneaton, Coventry, Northampton and Rugby my last trip was  to Wellingborough and then I caught the next train back north to Nottingham on the way back to my parent's house where I was staying for a week.

 

David

Edited June 16, 2017 by DaveF

[mark54]

In 1977 the 9th August was actually  a Tuesday, but the timing is not too far out.  My old calendar must be different from yours..

Whoops, you are right. I googled the date and for some reason Sat 9th July came up on the 2nd line and I didn't really look. I'll recheck the trains.

[mark54]

It was probably the 16:50 St Pancras-Nottingham that you caught (17:48 from Wellingborough). The up train may have been the 16:07 Derby-St Pancras.

[35A]

J3176 - it's interesting to see a 46 on a MML service as late as 1973. 151 went to the Western Region in 1969 and (apart from the quartet that went from the Midland lines to Gateshead before later heading westwards:  139, 148, 153 & 160 IIRC) the rest of the Midland batch had migrated to Bristol Bath Road or Laira by May 1972.

 

It's likely, I suppose, that it had either been into Derby Works for minor rectification (clearly not a repaint!) and had been on a test run to St. Pancras and back or more probably that the London Midland had purloined it, whilst in the area, to replace a failure. It certainly wasn't unheard of to see a 46 on the MML after they had moved away but traction knowledge would probably have started to become an issue.

Edited June 16, 2017 by 35A

[Clive Mortimore]

J3176 - it's interesting to see a 46 on a MML service as late as 1973. 151 went to the Western Region in 1969 and (apart from the quartet that went from the Midland lines to Gateshead before later heading westwards:  139, 148, 153 & 160 IIRC) the rest of the Midland batch had migrated to Bristol Bath Road or Laira by May 1972.

 

It's likely, I suppose, that it had either been into Derby Works for minor rectification (clearly not a repaint!) and had been on a test run to St. Pancras and back or more probably that the London Midland had purloined it, whilst in the area, to replace a failure. It certainly wasn't unheard of to see a 46 on the MML after they had moved away but traction knowledge would probably have started to become an issue.

Hi 35A

 

It was not uncommon for a Holbeck Peak to be seen on the southern end of the Midland pre HST days. That is were I saw most my 55A locos.

[The Johnster]

If it helps, I'm tending towards referring to pre TOPS locos by their 'Type' class e.g. English Electric Type 1 or their accepted nickname e.g. 'Peak'; only when they have gained TOPS numbers do I refer to the by class, in this case 20 and 44/45/46 as appropriate.

 

When I remember that is

 

TOPS facilitated the division of what had been previously a single class of locomotives with differences within it into separate classes, and this what happened to the BR Type 4 that everyone called 'Peaks'.  The old Ian Allan spotting books simply listed the whole lot from D! to D1xx as British Railways Type 4 1Co-Co1, and coped with the differences with it's usual asterisks and other markings, but TOPs split them into Class 44. 45. and 46.  It was, to the best of my knowledge, only when locos were altered post TOPS that they were subdivided into hypenated sub classes, class 47/4 or 21/1 and so on.  Only spotters called the BR Type 4s 'Peaks' as far as I ever knew; at Canton in the 70s we called them all Cromptons without distinguishing between 45 and 46, a name more associated generally with Class 33, but everyone else on the railway where we worked, as far as Saltley, or Worcester in my case, or Bristol, knew what we meant.  The term 'Peak' would have been unknown to anyone at Canton in those days.

 

The way BR described diesel locos pre-TOPS, English Electric Type 3, Brush type 4 (we called them Sulzers at Canton) and so on was cumbersome, and it is inevitable that spotters and railwaymen quickly found their own names, but the spotters' names were often different to the railwaymens', and both could vary between areas; at least post TOPS you could refer to a loco as a Class 37 and everyone knew what you meant from Penzance to Thurso.  The TOPS system seemed to me to be a natural progression from the GW/BR(W) method of referring to locos as 49s, or 56s, which was simply prefixed with D when those locos were replaced by diesels, so you would talk of a D69, and use the terms 'D70' or 'D1000' as much as Hymek or Western.  The 'D' tended to disappear from the vernacular at the same time as it did from the locos.

 

For modelling purposes, I find it anachronistic to refer to, say, a pre TOPS numbered Brush Type 4 in two tone green with SYP as a class 47, but the usage is convenient and I am aware that younger readers might not know what a Brush Type 4 is.   Pre-TOPS has a confusing situation in which there are two completely different English Electric Type 4s, which TOPS conveniently sorts out as classes 40 and 50, despite 50 (and 52) being appropriate for a loco in the Type 5 power band.  

[stovepipe]

J3176 - it's interesting to see a 46 on a MML service as late as 1973. 151 went to the Western Region in 1969 and (apart from the quartet that went from the Midland lines to Gateshead before later heading westwards:  139, 148, 153 & 160 IIRC) the rest of the Midland batch had migrated to Bristol Bath Road or Laira by May 1972.

 

Still three at Holbeck in my 1973 locoshed book - 180, 192 and 193 (correct to Jan 1973), but all gone by March 1974.

[DaveF]

First,  thanks very much for all the comments on yesterday's slides.

 

For now I'll keep on using the TOPS class numbers, it makes it much easier for me when sorting images, I may also use older descriptions as well on pre TOPS numbered locos, if I remember (or being honest, have time).

 

I'd completely forgotten that Class 46s reached St Pancras.

 

I spent much of today at the Tanfield Railway's "Legends of Industry Gala".  All being well I will post some photos of it during next week.  It was a lovely very warm and sunny day and well worth a visit if you are in the area tomorrow.

 

Now for today's photos which are some more from Swayfield  during 1972 (and there are many more to use yet).

 

They all feature Brush Type 4s, or Class 47, without D prefixes and are still painted green.

 

Where possible I have checked the loco numbers from the scans, for the rest I've assumed Dad's notes are right.   

 

Once again you can enjoy working out the train IDs.

 

 

Swayfield Class 47 1970 Kings X to Leeds March 72 J2829  09.10 Kings X to Leeds

 

 

Swayfield Class 47 1990  March 72 J2830  08.48 York to Kings X

 

 

Swayfield Class 47 1863 up May 72 J2920  15.40 SO Leeds to Kings X

 

 

Swayfield Class 47 1987 down July 72 J2955 18.30 Kings X to Hull

 

 

Swayfield Class 47 1993 09.25 up Leeds to Kings X July 72 J2978

 

Once again many thanks to Mark 54.

David

Edited June 18, 2017 by DaveF

[35A]

Hi 35A

 

It was not uncommon for a Holbeck Peak to be seen on the southern end of the Midland pre HST days. That is were I saw most my 55A locos.

 

Agreed. 45s from 55A/HO were fairly common visitors, in the 70s. As a Leicester resident in the early 80s, in the couple of years up to and through the coming of HSTs, I don't recall seeing or photographing any 46s on MML services, though, as they were not ETS-fitted (likewise the 45/0s, which were all that Holbeck had).

 

Still three at Holbeck in my 1973 locoshed book - 180, 192 and 193 (correct to Jan 1973), but all gone by March 1974.

 

The Midland Lines 46s (138-165) all headed west between 1968 and 1973. The Eastern Region batch (166-193) spent most of their lives at Gateshead, although a few them did bounce back and forth between Gateshead and Holbeck for a year or two, here and there, and even Haymarket had one on loan, before they all consolidated back at Gateshead. The Western Region also borrowed a handful of them for a while during their later years.

 

Anyway, we digress a bit ..... 

Edited June 18, 2017 by 35A

[35A]

First,  thanks very much for all the comments on yesterday's slides.

 

For now I'll keep on using the TOPS class numbers, it makes it much easier for me when sorting images, I may also use older descriptions as well on pre TOPS numbered locos, if I remember (or being honest, have time).

 

I'd completely forgotten that Class 46s reached St Pancras.

 

I spent much of today at the Tanfield Railway's "Legends of Industry Gala".  All being well I will post some photos of it during next week.  It was a lovely very warm and sunny day and well worth a visit if you are in the area tomorrow.

 

Now for today's photos which are some more from Swayfield  during 1972 (and there are many more to use yet).

 

They all feature Brush Type 4s, or Class 47, without D prefixes and are still painted green.

 

Where possible I have checked the loco numbers from the scans, for the rest I've assumed Dad's notes are right.   

 

Once again you can enjoy working out the train IDs.

 

 

Swayfield Class 47 1970 Kings X to Leeds March 72 J2829.jpg

Swayfield Class 47 1970 Kings X to Leeds March 72 J2829

 

 

Swayfield Class 47 1990 Leeds to Kings X March 72 J2830.jpg

Swayfield Class 47 1990 Leeds to Kings X March 72 J2830

 

 

Swayfield Class 47 1863 up May 72 J2920.jpg

Swayfield Class 47 1863 up May 72 J2920

 

 

Swayfield Class 47 1987 down July 72 J2955.jpg

Swayfield Class 47 1987 down July 72 J2955

 

 

Swayfield Class 47 1993 up Bradford to Kings X July 72 J2978.jpg

Swayfield Class 47 1993 up Bradford to Kings X July 72 J2978

 

 

David

 

Thanks David. That's my daily dose of knee-tremblers! Lovely images. Reminds me that at that time the whole 1500-1519 batch had been painted blue but virtually every other ECML 47 was still green (with odd exceptions). I particularly recall seeing 1104, 1105 and 1108 return after their visit to Crewe and appointment with the blue paint pot, the first of their batch.

Edited June 17, 2017 by 35A