Dave F's photos - ongoing - more added each day

[Enterprisingwestern]

Thanks David. That's my daily dose of knee-tremblers! Lovely images. Reminds me that at that time the whole 1500-1519 batch had been painted blue but virtually every other ECML 47 was still green (with odd exceptions). I particularly recall seeing 1104, 1105 and 1108 return after their visit to Crewe and appointment with the blue paint pot, the first of their batch.

 

That to me was the strange part of the ETH allocated Brush 4's, oops sorry, 47's on the ECML, there were the oldest locos all running in blue, as these were first for HGR, and then the newest built loco's running in various states of scabby green, including a couple with a black painted square over the D.

 

Mike.

[Clive Mortimore]

Some nice photos of some Brush Type Four and a Halves to give them their proper name.

[jonny777]

TOPS facilitated the division of what had been previously a single class of locomotives with differences within it into separate classes, and this what happened to the BR Type 4 that everyone called 'Peaks'.  The old Ian Allan spotting books simply listed the whole lot from D! to D1xx as British Railways Type 4 1Co-Co1, and coped with the differences with it's usual asterisks and other markings, but TOPs split them into Class 44. 45. and 46.  It was, to the best of my knowledge, only when locos were altered post TOPS that they were subdivided into hypenated sub classes, class 47/4 or 21/1 and so on.  Only spotters called the BR Type 4s 'Peaks' as far as I ever knew; at Canton in the 70s we called them all Cromptons without distinguishing between 45 and 46, a name more associated generally with Class 33, but everyone else on the railway where we worked, as far as Saltley, or Worcester in my case, or Bristol, knew what we meant.  The term 'Peak' would have been unknown to anyone at Canton in those days.

 

The way BR described diesel locos pre-TOPS, English Electric Type 3, Brush type 4 (we called them Sulzers at Canton) and so on was cumbersome, and it is inevitable that spotters and railwaymen quickly found their own names, but the spotters' names were often different to the railwaymens', and both could vary between areas; at least post TOPS you could refer to a loco as a Class 37 and everyone knew what you meant from Penzance to Thurso.  The TOPS system seemed to me to be a natural progression from the GW/BR(W) method of referring to locos as 49s, or 56s, which was simply prefixed with D when those locos were replaced by diesels, so you would talk of a D69, and use the terms 'D70' or 'D1000' as much as Hymek or Western.  The 'D' tended to disappear from the vernacular at the same time as it did from the locos.

 

For modelling purposes, I find it anachronistic to refer to, say, a pre TOPS numbered Brush Type 4 in two tone green with SYP as a class 47, but the usage is convenient and I am aware that younger readers might not know what a Brush Type 4 is.   Pre-TOPS has a confusing situation in which there are two completely different English Electric Type 4s, which TOPS conveniently sorts out as classes 40 and 50, despite 50 (and 52) being appropriate for a loco in the Type 5 power band.  

 

 

And of course that is before anyone tries to use the original ER diesel classification.....

[caradoc]

Bear in mind that BR introduced the Class numbers well before any locos were actually renumbered under TOPS. However, when I started in Glasgow Control in 1984 a few Controllers still wrote loco numbers with the D prefix, eg D47401 ! And Class 08s were never referred to as such but as 350s.

[Market65]

Hi, Dave. I like the Swayfield photo's. It's great seeing the 47's. or should I say Brush Type 4's? Anyway, they make a great sight working on those expresses, and bring many memories back of some good runs along the ECML behind 47's - only bettered, of course, by the Deltics, until the HST's came along.

In J2955, 1987 makes a particularly fine sight at the head of a train to Hull - I might have been on that train, but I cannot be completely sure.

 

With warmest regards,

 

Rob.

[melmerby]

 

   Pre-TOPS has a confusing situation in which there are two completely different English Electric Type 4s, which TOPS conveniently sorts out as classes 40 and 50, despite 50 (and 52) being appropriate for a loco in the Type 5 power band.  

I always found the designation Type 4, Type 3 etc a bit of an anachronism as although it was divided along power clasification lines "Type" is really the wrong descriptor to use in these circumstances.

"Type" as a designation  would more readily fall into "freight type" or "express passenger type" or "mixed traffic type" classifications.

Maybe a variation on the old LMS/BR system would have been better? But in those days anything steam based was "old hat".

Of course electric propulsion was classified completely differently. (AL1, AL2, AM1) Why?

All very confusing.

 

Keith

 

PS I know AL1 was AC Locomotive series 1 (Tops 81XXX) etc. and AM1 was AC Multiple unit series 1 (Tops to be 301XXX)

Edited June 17, 2017 by melmerby

[cctransuk]

I always found the designation Type 4, Type 3 etc a bit of an anachronism as although it was divided along power clasification lines "Type" is really the wrong descriptor to use in these circumstances.

"Type" as a designation  would more readily fall into "freight type" or "express passenger type" or "mixed traffic type" classifications.

Maybe a variation on the old LMS/BR system would have been better? But in those days anything steam based was "old hat".

Of course electric propulsion was classified completely differently. (AL1, AL2, AM1) Why?

All very confusing.

 

Keith

 

PS I know AL1 was AC Locomotive series 1 (Tops 81XXX) etc. and AM1 was AC Multiple unit series 1 (Tops to be 301XXX)

 

I'm guessing, but I would think that the Type X designations were a reference to the specifications issued by BR prior to the pilot scheme diesels being constructed; manufacturers were invited to submit designs for the specified 'Types' of locomotives.

 

Whatever - a Brush Type 4 will never be a Class 47 to me, and the application of Class designations to prototypes that didn't survive long enough to receive TOPS numbers is, frankly, nonsense. When someone refers to a Class 43, what are they actually talking about?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

[leopardml2341]

I'm guessing, but I would think that the Type X designations were a reference to the specifications issued by BR prior to the pilot scheme diesels being constructed; manufacturers were invited to submit designs for the specified 'Types' of locomotives.

 

Whatever - a Brush Type 4 will never be a Class 47 to me, and the application of Class designations to prototypes that didn't survive long enough to receive TOPS numbers is, frankly, nonsense. When someone refers to a Class 43, what are they actually talking about?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

 

More than likely part of a HST (253/4) which in itself is a bit strange as TOPS class 2xx were used for DEMUs, which HSTs clearly are not.

[Clive Mortimore]

Loco class names were great until TOPS came along. A Bo-Bo, could be a Sulzer Bo-Bo, a BR Bo-Bo, a Birmingham Bo-Bo, a BRCW Bo-Bo, a Type 2 Bo-Bo, a Sulzer Type 2, a BR type 2, a BRCW or Birmingham Type 2, a BR/Sulzer Type 2 or a BRCW/Sulzer Type 2 or just a Type 2. I even heard Derby being used instead of BR, with Bo-Bo and or type 2. There were those who combined all things as well so you got a Derby BR Sulzer type 2 Bo-Bo, which could also be a Skinhead, then they were called class 24, 25, 26 and 27, wot?

 

Yes 24s were Skinheads well before anyone called the Toffee Apple look a likes Skinheads, they look more like rockabillys than skins with that silly small quiff.

 

What did you call class 25s before TOPS?  I normally called them BR Type 2s but depending on the company at the platform end any of the above came into play.

 

PS A Crompton was a 25/1 and a Brush a 25/1A. You can tell them apart by looking at the battery boxes.

[cctransuk]

 

More than likely part of a HST (253/4) which in itself is a bit strange as TOPS class 2xx were used for DEMUs, which HSTs clearly are not.

 

Ahh - but others tell me that it's a Warship !!   .... and HSTs were originally loco-hauled stock with a loco at each end - hence the loco class designation of the power cars.

 

Is TOPS *really* as good as it's sometimes cracked up to be?

 

On the other hand - a Warship is a Warship, and an HST is an HST.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited June 17, 2017 by cctransuk

[Phil Bullock]

Ahh - but others tell me that it's a Warship !!   .... and HSTs were originally loco-hauled stock with a loco at each end - hence the loco class designation of the power cars.

 

Is TOPS *really* as good as it's sometimes cracked up to be?

 

On the other hand - a Warship is a Warship, and an HST is an HST.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

Sorry John but a warship is one of these

 

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/d600m_in_d600.htm

 

Or one of these

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_42

 

Or one of these

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_43_(Warship_Class)

 

And despite the names definitely not one of these

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_50

 

Or these

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_68

 

Hee hee

 

Phil

[mark54]

1L06 was the 09:10 KX-Leeds (with a 3 coach Hull portion at the rear).

1A09 was the 08:48 York-KX.

1A28 was the 15:35SX or 15:40SO Leeds-KX

1A14 was the 09:25 Leeds-KX (with 3 coach Halifax portion at the rear).

1H17 was the 18:30 KX-Hull.

[The Johnster]

Well, to be fair to British Railways during the Modernisation Plan era, and British Rail when TOPS was introduced, the purpose of describing the locomotives in the way that they were was not to cater to the needs of either spotters or for that matter railwaymen on the ground.  The pre TOPS system of 'Types' divided into power bands was mostly used to inform manufacturers of what was required from the locomotives they were bidding to supply, and the TOPS system, which to an extent perpetuated the power band idea in that the first digit of the new class number related to the previous 'type', except for classes 50 and 52, and 31 for the Brush Type 2, was designed to allow the computerised locating of any item of stock at any time, including rolling stock and not restricted to locomotives and including it's condition as to whether loaded or unloaded, in order to maximise it's utilisation, a system so successful as to be still in operation despite having been introduced in the days of perforated computer tape, and unaltered in basic principle after more than 40 years.

 

Both systems had anomalies, such as the classification of ships and hotels as locomotives under TOPS, and the aforementioned duplication of 'English Electric Type 4' for what later become classes 40 and 50.  The systems were designed and used for different purposes, and both railwaymen and spotters coined their own vernaculars to cope with matters on the ground.  DMUs were even more non-descripti in the pre-TOPS world, especially as in some areas sets were regularly split and reformed with different vehicles and kept in sets in others, but nor with any 'set numbers' displayed on them.  Emus seem to have been kept in sets and numbered in that way from the beginning.  It was all very confusing!

Edited June 18, 2017 by The Johnster

[Rugd1022]

I'm guessing, but I would think that the Type X designations were a reference to the specifications issued by BR prior to the pilot scheme diesels being constructed; manufacturers were invited to submit designs for the specified 'Types' of locomotives.

 

Whatever - a Brush Type 4 will never be a Class 47 to me, and the application of Class designations to prototypes that didn't survive long enough to receive TOPS numbers is, frankly, nonsense. When someone refers to a Class 43, what are they actually talking about?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood,

 

The new class designations actually came in before the five digit Tops renumbering scheme began John, from mid '68 onwards the first style of blue and white vinyl data panel stickers were applied to locos passing through works and depots. The actual renumbering scheme didn't start until late '72-ish when some AC electrics had their E numbers removed, and it was almost another year later before the mass renumbering really started happening. These new data panels were certainly applied to the Class 43 North British built Warships, as well as other classes which didn't make it past 1972.

[robertcwp]

1L06 was the 09:10 KX-Leeds (with a 3 coach Hull portion at the rear).

1A09 was the 08:48 York-KX.

1A28 was the 15:35SX or 15:40SO Leeds-KX

1A14 was the 09:25 Leeds-KX (with 3 coach Halifax portion at the rear).

1H17 was the 18:30 KX-Hull.

1A28 has the look of a portioned working because the Sunday working of the set was the 0900 King's Cross-Bradford/Harrogate and 1610/1615 return. Mon-Sat the set worked out and back King's Cross-Leeds.

[DaveF]

I think we've discussed ways of naming loco classes enough for now, so it's time to get back to photos.

 

While I looking through my folders of captioned images this morning I came across these two photos which had somehow found their way into what I though was an empty folder which I was about to delete.

 

So here they are.  

 

 

Watford Lodge 25... down breakdown train to Lichfield July 75 J4506  I don't have any more information about this photo.

 

 

Rotherham Masborough Class 114 Sheffield to Leeds 12th August 1977 C3490

 

 

More to come  later on today as usual

David

Edited June 18, 2017 by DaveF

[woodenhead]

Rather nice shots

[stovepipe]

They are indeed. That's not 25151 though, it had the later body style.

[russ p]

I wonder if any of the 48s carried data panels with class48 on them

[Rugd1022]

Lovely shot of the 25 at Watford Lodge... the Driver will be about to shut off and coast through Watford Lodge and Crick tunnels before reaching Hillmorton. Just out of sight behind the train is Wilson's Foot Crossing. I'm wondering if it's the Willesden Breakdown train...

Edited June 18, 2017 by Rugd1022

[Clive Mortimore]

I wonder if any of the 48s carried data panels with class48 on them

Hi Russ

 

 

Yes they did.

 

Two classes that did not have data panels were the North British Type 1 and Type 4s as both had been withdrawn before the TOPS classification came into being despite being given class numbers 16 and 41.

[Davexoc]

Lovely shot of the 25 at Watford Lodge... the Driver will be about to shut off and coast through Watford Lodge and Crick tunnels before reaching Hillmorton. Just out of sight behind the train is Wilson's Foot Crossing. I'm wondering if it's the Willesden Breakdown train...

Could well be the Willesden BDT, and according to the headcode, 1Z99 it is going to clear the line.

What happened at Lichfield in July 75?

 

Dave

[leopardml2341]

 

 

Rotherham Masborough Class 114 Sheffield to Leeds 12th Auust 1977 C3490.jpg

Rotherham Masborough Class 114 Sheffield to Leeds 12th August 1977 C3490

 

 

David

 

Unusual to see a Class 114 (Derby Heavyweight) unit on a Leeds service at Masboro' most were loco hauled as part of the NE/SW corridor services.

 

Going by the date, it's not beyond possibility that I could be one of the gaggle of spotters on/around the barrow on P4 in the background.

 

Until recently I didn't realise that DMU power cars and trailers had different TOPS identities (114 & 148) in this case.

 

Thanks for this pic David - reminds mi o' mi yoof

[DaveF]

Today's preserved railway pictures are from the Great Central Railway.

 

 

Loughborough Central 71000 Duke of Gloucester March 75 J4163

 

 

Loughborough Central Hunslet Robert Nelson No 4 ecs March 75 J4167

 

 

Loughborough Central Littleton No 5 Dec 75 C2556

 

 

Loughborough Central King Haakon VII Aug 77 C3409

 

 

Loughborough Central Hunslet Robert Nelson No 4 and GCR 506 April 79 C4433

 

 

David

[DaveF]

By coincidence today's old photos are also of the Great Central.

 

Some even have trains in them.

 

 

Swithland sidings 9F up freight Jan 64 J091

 

 

Rushcliffe Halt Class 45 Jan 71 J2488

 

 

Stanford on Soar view north Aug 75 C2238

 

 

Weekday Cross view from Broad marsh car park after closure GCR in front, GNR behind May 78 J6070

 

 

Rushcliffe Halt view south 10th June 89 C12012

 

 

David