GaerwenBR Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Hi all, quick question but I may be on the wrong forum. I'm constructing my new layout Chester Northgate and have limited space in the engineers yard, only a single siding. I am planning to have a small fuel depot for the BR vehicles and to generate traffic. The question is do/did diesel locos use the same fuel as road vehicles, or did the use red diesel? Many thanks for your replies Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted May 1, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 1, 2014 I always assumed diesel was diesel (although of course there's pink diesel) but it seems there are different diesels http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol45/mono45-10.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Yes Red diesel, as they do not operate on the public highway (Road). Gordon A Bristol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TheQ Posted May 1, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 1, 2014 On the Norfolk Broads we use red diesel for motor boats, but as of a couple of years ago we now have to pay the same duty as on white road diesel (due to the EEC but our government didn't fight too hard), I wonder if the railway does too, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Rail diesel was red last time I looked. I think the boating industry was changed as EU considered it an unfair advantage somehow, maybe other EU op's couldn't use red diesel? Not exactly sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted May 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 2, 2014 Yes Red diesel, as they do not operate on the public highway (Road). Gordon A Bristol What happens at level crossings Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddys-blues Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Hi Roger, how is the layout coming along ? and the answer to your question is definitely Red Diesel. Happy modelling Craig. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted May 3, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 3, 2014 It maybe coloured red but there are different standards big Cat machines ran on a lower grade of diesel called fuel oil literally the same stuff burnt to keep the workshop warm. Larger engines still ie container ship engines use an even lower grade which is where all the complaints about sulphur pollution are coming from. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddys-blues Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Hi Roger just to clarify, forget your Tesco's City diesel and that type of low sulphur diesel fuel , on the standard full fat Diesel there isn't any difference between Red Diesel & White "Road" Diesel as they are under the British Standards EN 590 regulations, red diesel has a dye added to it so if the red diesel is being used illegally on the highways then this a infringement of Customs and Excise regulations. So the railways, agricultural, and some parts of the marine industry are allowed to use the red diesel due to its lower tax relief. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Hi Roger just to clarify, forget your Tesco's City diesel and that type of low sulphur diesel fuel , on the standard full fat Diesel there isn't any difference between Red Diesel & White "Road" Diesel as they are under the British Standards EN 590 regulations, red diesel has a dye added to it so if the red diesel is being used illegally on the highways then this a infringement of Customs and Excise regulations. So the railways, agricultural, and some parts of the marine industry are allowed to use the red diesel due to its lower tax relief. Red diesel may be used for construction plant and things like container-handlers and forklifts, provided it doesn't venture on to the highway. If you travel by car on the Channel Tunnel, you'll see quite a lot of cars used for moving crew and terminal staff around, with a large red dot on the bonnet, with 'RED' in white letters on it. These are ones that run on red diesel, with the agreement of HMRC; when they need servicing, they have to be collected on a flat-bed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaerwenBR Posted May 3, 2014 Author Share Posted May 3, 2014 Thanks for all your answers, guys.....guess I need two tanks/pumps etc...1 for road vehicles and the other for locos. Craig, the model is coming along well....will be starting a thread on Layouts soon....busy cutting out and glueing Scalescenes arches at present Roger Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
25901 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I remember a un named depot having a fuel tank cleaned out and pipe work serviced due to some contaminated diesel, and after a fresh delivery of diesel a great cry of " Bloody hell, it's clear " They couldn't have done a good job of the pipe work as a lot of diesel "leaked" that night lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Thanks for all your answers, guys.....guess I need two tanks/pumps etc...1 for road vehicles and the other for locos. Craig, the model is coming along well....will be starting a thread on Layouts soon....busy cutting out and glueing Scalescenes arches at present Roger The tanks would be lettered accordingly, as well, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted May 3, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 3, 2014 There are a range of fuel grades, generally the main differentiators which are obvious are viscosity, cetane number and sulphur content. There are a lot of other differences between oils which may look similar, notably lubricity and fuels will have different combustion properties. Large diesel engines are actually very fuel tolerant and depending on their set up can run on just about anything from sulphur free gas oil down to rubbish like 600cSt heavy oil. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2014 Normal BR loco fuel used to come labelled as 'gas oil' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 A diesel engine can be made to run on virtually anything: just remember that Herr Doktor Diesel, in his early experiments, was using pulverised coal. Come back steam; all is forgiven! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted May 3, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 3, 2014 A diesel engine can be made to run on virtually anything: just remember that Herr Doktor Diesel, in his early experiments, was using pulverised coal. Yes, but needed a decoke very quickly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvdlcs Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Red diesel may be used for construction plant and things like container-handlers and forklifts, provided it doesn't venture on to the ###### highway. If you travel by car on the Channel Tunnel, you'll see quite a lot of cars used for moving crew and terminal staff around, with a large red dot on the bonnet, with 'RED' in white letters on it. These are ones that run on red diesel, with the agreement of HMRC; when they need servicing, they have to be collected on a flat-bed. My understanding was that agricultural vehicles running red diesel can use the public highway as long as it is less than a certain distance (3 miles?) for each trip. Allows the equipment move from one field to another using the public highway if required. As ever, I stand to be corrected ... and probably will be :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debs. Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I dont know the specifics of distances etc but you can definately take tractors etc "between fields"....and trust me, some of those fields can be a far far away With respect to the use of rebated fuel (red) for on-road transit using excepted agricultural vehicles, the 'G-Men' say: An agricultural vehicle can be used on more than one piece of land if it: is used only for agriculture, horticulture or forestry work is used on public roads only when passing between different areas of land occupied by the same person does not travel further than 1.5 kilometres on a public road when passing between two such areas and has a nil excise licence in force in respect Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 5, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 5, 2014 Useful info there about distances Debs. I wonder what sort of fuel one of the farmers round here uses as he works fields which are several miles apart by public roads but are much closer together as the crow flies? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted May 5, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 5, 2014 Something to remember about the diesel engine is that in its pure sense it is an engine modeled on the diesel cycle, it does not derive from an engine combusting diesel fuel. The diesel cycle as with other theoretical heat cycles (eg. otto, carnot, rankine) is an ideal which is never achieved in reality however it is the basis for the name of the engines of that name. Diesel oil is a middle distillate and there are multiple grades, if you look at ISO-8217 for marine fuels the DMA, DMB, DMX and DMZ grades are all in this group with diesel oil and gas oil being generic terms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Diesel engines are so tolerant of fuel grade that it's not unknown for seriously worn ones to start running on their own sump oil, which can result in a catastrophic runaway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Thanks for all your answers, guys.....guess I need two tanks/pumps etc...1 for road vehicles and the other for locos. Craig, the model is coming along well....will be starting a thread on Layouts soon....busy cutting out and glueing Scalescenes arches at present Roger Roger - I have never known a BR engineer's yard to (officially) supply fuel to road vehicles, although I stand corrected if there were such places, perhaps in remoter areas? Normally, the van drivers used to be given fuel cards to be used at normal commercial garages, when they needed to fill up. So, unless someone else states there were such situations, I suggest you only need to model the loco fuel point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TheQ Posted May 6, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 6, 2014 A diesel engine can be made to run on virtually anything: just remember that Herr Doktor Diesel, in his early experiments, was using pulverised coal. Come back steam; all is forgiven! Indeed, My landrover 200TDi is currently runing on 50% Diesel, and 50% pure vegetable oil which on a good day is 90p a litre from Tesco, unfortunately I don't have access to a cash and carry anywhere nearby where it would be even cheaper. The Q Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baby Deltic Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 I'll bet it smells like a fish and chip shop. Mr Plod might get a sniff, so I hope its all above board. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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