s class saddle tank?

[welsh wizard]

I have just come across an article describing a "one off" Saddle tank designated S class apparently it was a rebuild of a C class loco cant seem to find anymore info on it anyone else heard of this SR oddity? or have any pictures .

[buffalo]

You don't say where you found it, but a quick look in Wikipedia found

 

In 1917 one example, no. 685 was converted into an S class 0-6-0ST for use as a heavy-duty shunter at Richborough port which was then being used to ship locomotives and armoured equipment to the Western Front. After the War it was used as a shunter at Bricklayers' Arms until 1951

with a reference to Bradley, D.L. (1980). The locomotive history of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway. London: Railway Correspondence and Travel Society. ISBN 0-901115-49-5. p102.

 

Nick

[Fat Controller]

Apparently converted from loco 685 for use at Richborough Military Port, between Sandwich and Ramsgate, during WW1; at the end of hostilities, it was sent to Bricklayer's Arms as a shunter, where it survived until 1951. There is apparently a reference on p 102 of the RCTS book about SE&CR locos.

[petethemole]

Wasn't this the prototype for the early Triang 0-6-0ST? Very crude and basic but they turn up on e-bay from time to time.

 

Pete

[Fat Controller]

Wasn't this the prototype for the early Triang 0-6-0ST? Very crude and basic but they turn up on e-bay from time to time.

 

Pete

I thought that was based on a L&Y prototype?

When I Googled ' Richborough Military Port', there was a shot of a saddle tank (http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/e/eythorne/eythorne(c1935)old1.jpg ) at Eythorne- I don't know if that's the beast, or is it yet another one of Colonel Steven's specials?

[bbishop]

Looks "industrial", so doubt if it is 685 and I'll leave to an expert.

 

Bill

[petethemole]

This one's on e-bay now:  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Triang-Hornby-Saddle-Tank-lovely-running-condition-/360922281199?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item5408a4f4ef

 

The splashers are continuous on the actual model and the cab's not right for the S class but other aspects aren't far off.

 

Pete

[Poor Old Bruce]

There are a couple of photos and a diagram in Jim Russell's 'A Pictorial Record of Southern Locomotives' OPC 1991.

[Nick Holliday]

The photo taken at Eythorne shows the EKR Hudswell Clark No. 2.  See http://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/locomotives/locomotives-of-the-ekr?showall=&limitstart= 

The loco was bought originally for the WC&P but was too heavy, moving to Kent in a year.  It then moved freely around Colonel Stephens' lines as traffic demands on the EKR peaked and troughed.  It expired on 23rd August 1943 and was bought by Thomas Ward but instead of being turned into scrap, or a tank, it somehow reappeared still in one piece in Essex and later acquired the superstructure of an ex-brewery 0-4-0ST and survived as "Churchill" until 1957.

[Judge Dread]

The water tank on this loco is a little on the tall side, the second reference in this link gives away why, http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/saddle.html. The first loco was clockwork powered and that's the reason. I owned one way back when and managed to lower the tank to something more acceptable I thought. 

[The Stationmaster]

According to the information in F.Burtt's 'SE&CR Locomotives' (published by Ian Allan, 1947) it was converted from a C Class 0-6-0 in 1917 in order to increase the available adhesive weight.  Work was limited to extending the rear frame to accommodate the new cab & bunker and adding the 1,200 gallon capacity saddle tank as well as lowering the steam reverser and clack valves to suit the overhang of the saddle tank.  Weight was increased (Burtt's figures) from 43t 16cwt to 53t 10cwt.

 

Burtt also notes it as being at Bricklayers Arms 'on shunting work'.  An SE&CR photo in Burtt's volume shows it in what is probably grey livery with the number in large digits on the side of the saddle tank - also equipped with screw couplings and both vacuum and Westinghouse train brakes although what appears to be a Westinghouse pipe could possibly be a steam pipe.

Edited May 2, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[The Lurker]

This from SEMG:

 

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/sclass_01.html

 

Probably doesn't add too much to the above.

 

There is also a picture in P Ransome Wallis' Southern Album (which I was given for my third birthday in 1970 and still have, pretty battered, at home) of it Bricklayers Arms

[welsh wizard]

thanks for all the info ,the article was originally in a HRCA Journal an interesting one off Loco...

[The Stationmaster]

I have now found another picture of it - in fairly clean condition, in the 1945 edition of the Ian Allan ABC of Southern Locomotives, and the saddle tank was lettered 'Southern' above the handrail. 

[bécasse]

Locomotives of British Railways, Southern Group, by Casserley and Asher has a photo of 1685 in dirty Maunsell livery which had been applied in July 1934 when it was recylindered (and renumbered from A685).

 

Interestingly the photo, also by HCC, in the Ian Allan Southern Railway ABC (mine is a 1946 edition but same photo), shows exactly the same Maunsell SOUTHERN lettering on the saddle tank above the handrail, but the cab side number now appears to be in large Bulleid style, suggesting that the cab, but not the saddle tank, had been repainted at some time post 1934.

[petethemole]

Locomotives of British Railways, Southern Group, by Casserley and Asher has a photo of 1685 in dirty Maunsell livery which had been applied in July 1934 when it was recylindered (and renumbered from A685).

 

Is this the photo with chalk graffiti on the bunker side? It looks a bit like a Chad with "WOT NO" something. If so I think the tank side lettering looks more like Bulleid style, sans serif, despite being very obscured.

 

Pete

[bécasse]

I think that you may have opened a can of worms there, Pete.

 

The SOUTHERN lettering on the saddle tank is difficult to read in both photos, but you are correct, in the Casserley & Asher book photo, both SOUTHERN and 1685 are in the Bulleid small style, not Maunsell as I suggested before.

 

However, the ABC photo definitely has SOUTHERN in Maunsell style on the saddle tank, and I can be certain of that because the name is longer and started further forward than it did in Bulleid style in the other photo. As stated before, the cab side number appears to be in the large Bulleid style, much larger than in the C&A book photo and probably 12". However, it seems improbable that it would be in Bulleid style, and, after carefully comparing the photo with the typeface used in both Maunsell and Bulleid numbering, I have come to the conclusion that it was hand painted and matches neither Maunsell nor Bulleid styles exactly, although it is closer to the latter than the former. It is, incidentally, much brighter than the SOUTHERN lettering on the tank although that might just be the result of being cleaned more often.

[bécasse]

The photo I mention in post #5, also by HCC, is dated April 1936 at Bricklayers Arms. It is of the left hand side. There is neatly stacked pile of coal behind the bunker and a lamp post sprounting out of the cab. There is no graffiti on the bunker side. Is this the ABC one?

Probably, there is no lamp post but the print appears to have been cleaned up before the block was made. An ex-LBSCR bunker back tool box (A1X, D1?) can be seen to the immediate rear of the S and it appears to be carrying lamps in accordance with SR loco head code 7 (why?).

 

An April 1936 date would definitely rule out Bulleid style for the cab side number and I am left wondering whether the loco was only patch-painted after the cylinder change in 1934, the loco is recorded as having been concurrently renumbered from A685 to 1685. It isn't impossible that the cylinder change was done locally and that would definitely imply that the new cab side number was hand painted - it certainly doesn't match Maunsell-style transfers.

Edited May 4, 2014 by bécasse

[bécasse]

The 'tool box' on the running plate, to the right of the 'S', looks to me like a sand box for the middle driver, for use when running forward.  The pipe can be seen below the running plate, just in front of the brake block.  My photo also has the SR headcode '7' which is rather odd.

Sorry, the "tool box" is on the back of the next loco, screw coupled bunker-to-bunker with the S.

 

There is a another picture of the S in this livery, but showing the other side, here http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/SECR-tank-engines/i-C6hshNh.

I suspect that this shot is also at Bricklayers Arms and not Ashford as captioned.

Edited May 4, 2014 by bécasse

[The Stationmaster]

Mike,

 

What style of lettering is it in, Bullied Sunshine or Maunsell?

It's Maunsell style Paul and while I'm no sort of expert on Southern numeral styles the 6, 8, and 5 match fairly closely those digits painted on Maunsell liveried locos and tenders elsewhere in the book and there is no sign of shading of the numerals as far as I can see..

Edited May 4, 2014 by The Stationmaster

[N15class]

Sorry, the "tool box" is on the back of the next loco, screw coupled bunker-to-bunker with the S.

 

There is a another picture of the S in this livery, but showing the other side, here http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/SECR-tank-engines/i-C6hshNh.

I suspect that this shot is also at Bricklayers Arms and not Ashford as captioned.

I cannot make out the lettering on the tank but the cabside is shaded so has to be sunshine lettering.

[The Stationmaster]

There is also a left hand side view in Casserley & Asher 'Locomotives of British Rsailways' and although the tank is too filthy to make out any sort of lettering the number is relatively clear and is in Bulleid style matching that in the Mike Morant picture and clearly not matching the Maunsell era style numbers in the ABC picture.

[Horsetan]

According to the information in F.Burtt's 'SE&CR Locomotives' (published by Ian Allan, 1947) it was converted from a C Class 0-6-0 in 1917 in order to increase the available adhesive weight.  Work was limited to extending the rear frame to accommodate the new cab & bunker and adding the 1,200 gallon capacity saddle tank as well as lowering the steam reverser and clack valves to suit the overhang of the saddle tank.  Weight was increased (Burtt's figures) from 43t 16cwt to 53t 10cwt.

 

Burtt also notes it as being at Bricklayers Arms 'on shunting work'.  An SE&CR photo in Burtt's volume shows it in what is probably grey livery with the number in large digits on the side of the saddle tank - also equipped with screw couplings and both vacuum and Westinghouse train brakes although what appears to be a Westinghouse pipe could possibly be a steam pipe.

 

...and naturally South Eastern Finecast produces a kit (ref. F181) for it!

[John M Upton]

At the weekend my Father-in-Law handed me a box load of "old model railway stuff that I was going to chuck in the bin" that has not been touched since the mid 1960's.

 

One of them was this:

 

Which when opened revealed itself to be this:

 

My F-i-L was fond of doing a bit of repainting when he were a lad (there are a couple of other odd bits he redecorated in the box as well!!!) and evidently he thought the S Class wore a lined green livery at some point.

 

Amazingly despite having laid dormant in a box for decades (the latter part in a damp leaky garden shed!) I tried it and it STILL works!!!   Doesn't like modern points though I discovered.

 

It's going to be getting a bit of a makeover...

 

Comparison with one of my large fleet of modern Hornby M7's:

Edited August 12, 2015 by John M Upton

[bécasse]

Is my ageing memory playing tricks on me or am I right in thinking that Triang did a clockwork as well as 12v DC version of this loco?