Road vans on foreign lines

[CKPR]

There are references to road vans being used in West Cumbria by the M&CR, LNWR and the Caley. The only drawings I've ever seen are for the LNWR van as published in Cumbrian Railways [the CRA journal] a few years ago, which appears to be a standard van with vacuum brakes and larger coach wheels. 

Edited May 9, 2014 by CKPR

[Quarryscapes]

Sounds like an interesting vehicle. I suppose the guard didn't actually travel in it, as there wouldn't be anyone in the brake van then! In a way it's odd they didn't just make side doors in the regular brake vans (for easy loading/unloading), like the GWR did. Was there simply not room in the brake vans maybe, or did they have special regulations for the use of brake vans perhaps...

 

It's whole existence is intriguing - the only photo I know of it shows it running between locomotive and train of 2 four wheelers, neither of which appear to have guard's accommodation. According to the last book I read, the rules for the Mawddwy line suggest that a brake van was to be fitted to every train, including passenger services, and most services were run mixed. What is also interesting as after examining the photo, I can see no evidence of conventional wagon brakes but what appear to be clasp style brakes on the leading axle at least. I really wish I could find out more about it! 

[buffalo]

The Cambrian example sounds quite similar to the Wolverhampton stores van shown in fig 260 of Russell's Appendix.

 

Nick

[Quarryscapes]

I'm going to have to buy that now and have a gander! 

[Buckjumper]

Returning to Mikkel's OP on S&DJ Road Vans, during my enforced absence from actually doing any modelling I've been looking at foreign goods workings into London to see if there was anything interesting (i.e. suitably mundane) sent in by the outlying companies. Naturally the S&DJ eventually rose to the top and the thorny question of their covered goods wagons came up. Bixley et al is useful to a point, but rather lacking in specifics so I enquired of a fellow 7mm modeller who has a rather lovely S&D themed garden line, and he was able to supply the following:
 

Russ Garner's Registers [1886-1930] include the following useful entries on the Midland-designed box vans (SR diagram 1404):

1. Nos 1003-1037; 8 ton; covered goods (road van); built 1896 by Midland; average tare 5-15-0.
2. As [1], except: No 1038; 8 ton  covered goods (road van); built April 1896 by Midland; 5-13-2 tare.
3. As [1], except: Nos 1045-1073; 8 ton; covered goods; built 1899 by SJ Claye; average tare 5-15-0.
4. As [1], except: Nos 35, 60, 138, 334, 491, 610, 762; 8/10 ton; covered goods; built 1905, 1908, 1905, 1908, 1909, 1911 by SDJR Highbridge.

Clearly a number of box vans were designated as 'Road Vans' and these were allocated certain operating diagrams, whereas a covered goods wagon was unallocated.
 
"Road Box Traffic" and tabulate "Working of Road Boxes" are covered in the WTT's and these examples are from the one dated 1st July 1914:
 

• Van 13 worked Bath and all intermediate stations to Templecombe for London, on 3.40pm from Bath to Templecombe, then 11.15pm from T'Combe L&SW.
• Van 21 worked Highbridge and all intermediate stations to Templecombe, with Meat, Poultry and Rabbits only, for London Markets. Attached to 5.5pm from Highbridge, then 11.15pm from T'Combe L&SW.
• Van 22 worked Highbridge and all intermediate stations to Templecombe for London, on 5.50pm from Highbridge Goods, then 11.15pm from T'Combe
• Van 23 worked London to Cole and all stations to Evercreech New, on 1040pm from London and 6.0am from T'combe
• Van 24 worked from London to Shepton mallet and all stations to Bath, on 1040pm from Nine Elms, 4.15am from T'combe, 6.0am from Evercreech Jn and 10.5am from Shepton mallet.
• Van 25 worked from London to all intermediate stations between Wincanton [except Cole) & Burnham & Bridgwater, on 1040pm from Nine Elms and4.15am from T'combe
• Van 26 worked from London to bath, Bristol and Burnham on 1235am from Nine Elms, 815 or 1055am from T-combe, then as arranged from Evercreech Jn.
• Van 33 worked Nine Elms to Henstridge via Wimborne, on 1.15am from Nine Elms and 9.20am from Wimborne
• Van 38 worked from Stalbridge and Henstridge stations to T'combe, for London markets on 7.35pm from Stalbridge and 9.15pm from T'combe.

There is an instruction for Goods Guards which differentiates between Road Vans and ordinary covered goods wagons workings:

"Goods Guards must take special care on commencing a journey, if they have Road Box Wagons on their Train, that they receive the necessary list and invoices, (except in the case of Road Boxes from the Midland system) and obtain signatures at each Station where the goods are left, and in the case of Trains finishing at Bath, these lists must be nailed to the Truck side".

 

 

 

So there, I'm safe having an S&D Road Van passing through Basilica Fields with Somerset rabbit for the local populace (Christmas dinner perhaps), or even a plain old general merchandise van loaded with Dorset's finest Thingamajigs, and I'm sure Mikkel can forge a suitable excuse for having either type turn up regularly at Farthing too.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Buckjumper

[burgundy]

"Goods Guards must take special care on commencing a journey, if they have Road Box Wagons on their Train, that they receive the necessary list and invoices, (except in the case of Road Boxes from the Midland system) and obtain signatures at each Station where the goods are left, and in the case of Trains finishing at Bath, these lists must be nailed to the Truck side".

I wonder if the difference between an ordinary goods van and a road van, dedicated to small individual consignments, may have been simply a rack, or something similar inside the vehicle, to manage the paperwork?

Best wishes

Eric  

Edited May 10, 2014 by burgundy

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder if the difference between an ordinary goods van and a road van, dedicated to small individual consignments, may have been simply a rack, or something similar inside the vehicle, to manage the paperwork?

Best wishes

Eric  

You are probably right Eric - the road van was essentially a vehicle to accommodate small consignments for individual stations on line of route which didn't justify a full van of their own.  In the early days all traffic was invoiced and in many instances wayleaved as well so there could have been paperwork in the van (or possibly with the Guard - who would have suitable stowage for it in any case).

[Mikkel]

So there, I'm safe having an S&D Road Van passing through Basilica Fields with Somerset rabbit for the local populace (Christmas dinner perhaps), or even a plain old general merchandise van loaded with Dorset's finest Thingamajigs, and I'm sure Mikkel can forge a suitable excuse for having either type turn up regularly at Farthing too.

 

For the record, I eventually built this SDJR road van. As you can see I struggled with the paintjob and the grooves.

 

 

 

 

Construction notes in my blog (link below), if anyone is interested.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Mikkel

[jasp]

Just caught up with this thread.

The Caledonian had two types of road van, 4 wheel and six wheel.

As far as I know the were used exclusively on the line(s) to Oban and were usually for parcels traffic.

Drawings of these are available from the Caledonian Railway Association

Jim

Edited January 14, 2015 by jasp

[Compound2632]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread but I've started sniffing around S&DJR rolling stock - probably very foolish. It seems that most of the interest and info on Road Vans comes from a LSWR/Southern perspective; I'm looking at things from the Midland end of the line; particularly S&DJR rolling stock designs that are either pure Midland or Highbridge variations thereupon. 

 

Buckjumper noted the entries in Russ Garner's Registers, which works out at a total of 36 covered goods wagons built at Derby in 1896, with a further 29 built by SJ Claye in 1899 and another seven built in ones at Highbridge over the following decade. One imagines that Highbridge had a stock of Midland parts that it drew on as the fit took it - working rather like the typical model kit builder!

 

The Derby C&W lot list records Lot 369, raised on 23 December 1895, 50 Covered Goods Wagons (for S&DJR), to Drawing 1088 [Essery, Midland Wagons, Vol. 2 (OPC, 1980)] - 14 more than recorded by Garner.

The lot list also includes entries for Tariff Vans for the Midland's own use: Lots 263 of 1 January 1891 and 300 of 30 July 1892, 30 in each, to Drg. 845, and Lot 433 of 8 February 1898, 250 to Drg. 1239, 50 of which had through vacuum pipe, screw couplings, and lamp irons, equipping them to run in passenger trains. According to Essery [op. cit.], the first two Lots are in fact Tariff Brake Vans, diagram D382A, and the final Lot is diagram D382.

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre holds the relevant drawings:

 

Drg. 845, drawn by S.S. Watkinson, dated 12 January 1891 [item 88-D0033].

 

Drg. 1088, drawn by F. Cocker, dated 1 January 1896 [item 88-D1801].

 

Drg. 1239, drawn by W.S. Denham, dated 9 February 1898 [item 88-D0129].

 

The two photographs in Essery [Plates 203 and 204] show vans nos. 116204 and 116240 which confirms that they are from Lot 433, as the total number of Midland wagons at the end of December 1894 is known to have been 114,069. These vehicles are almost identical in appearance to the S&DJR Road Vans, with cupboard doors (4'9" doorway according to D382) in place of the usual Midland arrangement of a sliding door with 5'0" doorway. The only difference I can see is the addition of a double window between the end pillars, which appears to be absent on the S&DJR vans. The Tariff Brake Vans of D382A are in a quite different style, with many features in common with the standard 10 ton brake vans of D390, though fully enclosed with double doors akin to the style of Kirtley (pre-1873) brake vans. So it would appear that the cupboard door design originated with the vans built for the S&DJR. (This body style was repeated for the Midland's first banana vans of 1905-6, D365, though after 225 had been built a change was made to a sliding door, though retaining the 4'9" opening.)

 

The function of a Tariff Van would appear to be the same as that of a Road Van, i.e. conveyance of signed-for packages, so these might be the "road boxes from the Midland system" mentioned in Buckjumper's post. One wonders whether there was any distinction between the traffic conveyed by passenger train in the guard's compartment and traffic conveyed in these vans, evidently chiefly by goods train. This was clearly an extensive operation, calling for over 200 vehicles across the Midland system. They were branded "For Tariff only / Return immediately to X", where X = DERBY / BRADFORD in the two photos.

 

There are further drawings in the Derby C&W register and Study Centre collection relating to the modification of some of these vans for grain traffic from Avonmouth in 1922. This elucidates some remarks in Essery and perhaps also indicates that tariff traffic was in decline by this date.

 

The WTT data quoted by Buckjumper relates to S&DJR Road Vans working off the S&D onto the LSWR via Templecombe. Are there similar workings onto the Midland via Bath, or were Midland Tariff Vans used for this, as is perhaps hinted?

[Gordon A]

Depending on the time I would have thought any trailing box van would have to be vacuum braked, or if positioned between the loco and carriages be at least through piped.

 

Gordon A

[2996 Victor]

On 06/01/2015 at 17:58, Mikkel said:

 

For the record, I eventually built this SDJR road van. As you can see I struggled with the paintjob and the grooves.

 

 

 

 

Construction notes in my blog (link below), if anyone is interested.

 

Hi Mikkel,

 

Me again with another case of thread resurrection, I'm afraid!

 

Did you keep any build notes? I recall from many years ago in, I think, Practical Model Railways, a kit-bash of an S&D Road Van using two Slater's Midland box vans.

 

Excellent work as always!

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

[Mikkel]

Hi Mark, my build notes are basically the blog entries. The S&DJR van is desribed here: 

 

[2996 Victor]

My apologies, Mikkel, I hadn't found the blog..... I'll have a read through now!

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

[Edwardian]

On 16/07/2019 at 17:53, 2996 Victor said:

My apologies, Mikkel, I hadn't found the blog..... I'll have a read through now!

 

Best regards,

 

Mark

 

I find it hard to keep up with blogs, but Mikkel's is worth tracking down from time to time; a wealth of good things.