Accessory Decoder, how many points to one connection?

[John Geeee]

When setting up DCC accessory decoders to operate solenoid point motors can I connect more than one solenoid to a single conection. I am thinking about a crossover between two tracks where two points will have to be switched  so that I can reduce the number of accessory decoders needed. Do the DCC accessories have enough kick for two points at once from the single connection? I do this now with manual micro switches.

 

Cheers

John Geeee

[Phil S]

How thick is your piece of string? (Just to be a variation on 'how long is a piece of string')

THIS DEPENDS on information you have not provided:  The Decoder you are using, and the power supply provided to it, and the type of point and point motor(s) you intend using with it.

 

IF you have efficient point motors, then there is no problem running more than 1  provided the total remains in the limit for a single output on the decoder.

By 'efficient', I mean motors which take littte current, either through use of mechanical advantage (leverage) and/or end-off switching, so that, on completion they stop taking power.

Slow Motion (geared motors) are in this category.

 

The alternative, I classify as 'Brute force and Ignorance': A high current solenoid, directly moving the tie-bar possibly against an over-centre spring (adjustable on Peco points), but using no mechanical advantage (remember your school physics about Levers and Wheebarrows etc).

This type might best be operated by CDUs which are built in to SOME types of Point Decoder (eg the original Hornby Accessory/Point decoder)

 

Discussion on another thread in thelast few days has re-iterated that the 'standard' Peco Coil is a high current device - and they produce a low-current version which is more suited to DCC accessory decoder operation.

 

(I use LGB point motors for G-Scale = '1/2 turn motors without commutation,  Roco Analogue (Solenoid, <1A) and integrated Digital Point Motors (<100mA, and no separate decoder required), as well as Fleischmann End-off Switching Point Motors, Trix/Marklin End-Off switching point motors, Veissmann 4550 integrated 'slow motion' motors and Fulgarex or Lemanco Slow-Motion Drives)

I no longer have any Peco or H&M (or Seep) point motors in use; BUT in the distant past, with Zero-1 I wired 2 Peco Point motor Coils in series for Crossovers to reduce the current (which was otherwise > 6A!).  All my crossovers, in any gauge, are programmed as / run from a single decoder output, to make operation easier - although, if using a 'glass panel' VDU screen, this is not necessary, as the computer can be progrmammed to set whole 'routes'.

[Brian Indge]

Hi John,

 

Funnily enough I asked Gaugemaster the same question last week. The reply I had said that they would use one of their M2 units to power their accessory decoder alongside the DCC signal but I could not use their CDU to boost the power to my Peco solenoid point motors.

 

Brian

[John Geeee]

Hi Phil, thanks for the feedback.

I didn't think it would be that critical, I was hoping it would be a simple yes or no answer. I just had not seen it mentioned anywhere. The motors are all the everyday Hornby solenoid point motors with a guagemaster CDU. The DCC power supply is  a ECoS 50200. I don't have an accessory decoder yet. With more than 30 points on my layout I was thinking I could save a few pounds on accessory decoders by treating crossovers as one rather than two if I decide to go for the ability to set routes, otherwise I will stay with the seperate non DCC control panel that I currently use and dismiss the route setting possibilities for a while.

[Tony_S]

Pairs of the Peco PL10 W solenoid motors work very well with my Lenz LS 150 accessory decoder.

 

Tony

[HLT 0109]

John,

 

I can only comment on Hornby accessory decoders R8247, of which I have thirteen in operation so far, and which operate either Hornby surface mounted point motors or Peco standard point motors.  I have several crossovers and this setup changes the two points simultaneously from a single output of the R8247.  In fact there is one output operating four Hornby point motors simultaneously.  I accept however what Phil says about it depending upon your accessory decoder.  Incidentally, the R8247 contains its own CDU so a separate one is not needed (but I guess this means I have paid for several CDUs that I wouldn't otherwise have needed).  The official line from Hornby is that, in order to operate two point motors simultaneously from the R8247, two outputs should be given the same accessory number but it is unclear to me how one can do that, since only port 1 is programmed and the others are automatically numbered sequentially.

 

Harold.

[Combe Martin]

The ZTC304, when coupled with a CDU, will switch a crossover of Peco points operated by a pair of old type (not the new low current) Peco solenoids from one output port without problem, and without having to wire them in series. The manual shows how to wire it, and its quite straight forward.  

[TomJ]

I use a NCE PowerCab and DCCconcepts AD-S2/8 accessory decoders. Each output has it's own CDU. Each output will happily switch two normal Peco motors - that is exactly what I have done for my pair of crossovers

[roundhouse]

I currently use Digitrax DS64 decoders to power two SEEP solenoids off the one outputting Banbury These Digitrax decoders have their own built in capacitor discharge circuit.

[Suzie]

If buying new solenoid motors get the Peco PL10W type and you should be OK to operate two from any solenoid compatible accessory decoder, but if using other solenoids you will have to choose your decoder carefully and will probably be restricted to making a decoder from a MERG or DIY Decoder kit to guarantee reliable operation of more than one solenoid on a single output.

[Sultan]

Hello John,

               To give you even more choice I use four of the team digital SMD 82decoders  which power peco PL10 and side mounted PL11 point motors with ease,they also have a built in cdu.They easily operate two pl10 motors at a time and recently due to an address mistake by myself in my JMRI panel were operating two junctions,four pl10's at the same time,I only realised this by the extra noise the operation of four solenoids created.(plenty of kick}

                  In my experiance the SMD 82 also very easily copes with the multiple operation of the solenoids extremely well when several points are selected to create a route.The smd82's / point motors have their own separate designated power supply on my layout.

 

http://www.teamdigital1.com/smd82_decoder.html

 

Best regards

 

Sultan

[Temeraire]

DCCconcepts AD-S2/8 accessory decoders. Each output has it's own CDU.

 

I am using the same DCC concepts decoders and wired two crossovers yesterday using SEEP point motors and can confirm that a pair of motors switch quite happily together from one output.

 

Forgot to add that I use the Gaugemaster Prodigy to power them, but the programming is simplicity itself!

[Phil S]

To summarise?: It is worth trying, but beware of what you are tryingh to do.  

 

Read the instructon manuals on line before purchasing, if you don't have a convenient stockist at which you can see and read them.

 

With regards powering:   Accessory decoders powering choices are: Track (this is the ONLY time in which the DCC Central Controller [powe output] is relevant), DC, or AC.

Read the recent ESU SwitchPIlot for observations about the different power supply's effect on the SwitchPilot and driving cpability!

 

Where a Decoder has an INBUILT CDU ... it can happily be charged from the track (as with the Hornby Point Decoder)  as this is done 'slowly' (in a few seconds) between firing successive points - the burst of energy required is therefore from the internal storage capacitor (A low impedance source), and not from the immediate track power (or external supply, if that is used instead)

 

Note that, although (Some)  Accessory Decoders CAN be powered from the DCC track signal, it is better to use a separate bu or power supply: This is because, if the dcc signal is LOST due to a short circuit (eg when overunning a wrongly-set point)  then the dcc cannot be used to correct the point, and remove the problem 8-).

For this reason, Accessory (Point) decoders are best connected to a separate DCC bus which can be isolated fromt he track dcc by a switch ... the track of the wrongly set point can thus be isolated, and the point changed by DCC ssss

 

'Overlapping' the point addresses referred to in the Hornby Manual (and previously, similarly in the Zero-1 manuals 8-) ) is another way of saying 'use 2 decoders, and give them the same address' (or in Zero-1 case, t needed only be 2 overlapping).   'Most' Accesory Decoders follow the simple programming idea of 4 sequential pairs of outputs [(L+R) x 4], with FIXED boundaries of multiples of 4, ie 1-4,5-8 etc, but there are those which are freely assignable, such as the LS150 from Lenz - in which all 6 can be addressed totally indiviudally - which can make installation much easier.

 

I would encourage you to include DCC control of your points - even with only 30! - the wiring simplification, for maintenance, and ease of operation from a single portable handset (or multiples there-of... I use lots of Roco Multimauses and MultimausPros) makes it all worthwhile.  Conversion could be progressive adoption of 'power signalling' as time and funds permits.

In the garden, where we have 24 'sets' (including paired junctions) of points, the restriction of a fixed location from which to change  a point, intead of from; any handset anywhere in the garden, would severely limit operation and enjoyment.  Similarly with the 00 scale in the loft; there is reduced benefit in handset rather than central-control-point operation - unless you also have the freedom to change the points and signals from wherever you are controlling the train(s).   Admittedly a touch-screen approach to point / route control then tends to tie one back to a single location - but that needn't be the ONLY method of control:  the handsets can ALSO be used (parallel operation witht eh VDU), and monitor or mimic displays can be repeated in part or in full alround the layout.

[A MIMIC Panel is easy to make - simply use a cheap Stead-State Accessory Decoder and connect LEDS to it.  The MERG kit is available to members quite economically.

[andybster]

I have a set of Lenz LS150 decoders (the ones that can flip 6 switches - they are powered by the recommended power supply, the Lenz TR100 which produces (max) 45VA. My point motors are 98% Gaugemaster PM1 SEEP motors and I have found that these decoders seem to struggle with only ONE point motor!!

 

I have been looking for a solution to 'boost' the output so, like many of us, I can switch two (or more) motors with one accessory address. Any ides?

[Suzie]

The LS150 is 3A max so not suitable for SEEP, Hornby or the Peco PL10 standard point motors which require 4A each.

 

The suggestion has already been made, use PL10W motors which use less current and two will fit easily in to the 3A limit, or replace the LS150 with a decoder that has a higher current capability such as the MERG or DIY decoder kits.

 

A 45VA transformer is sufficient for the LS150 to invoke its overload protection while driving a high current solenoid if the wiring is good enough so there is no point in getting a bigger transformer.

 

The LS150 is a very expensive decoder so you will probably be able to sell it secondhand with the solenoid point motors and raise enough money to buy half a dozen servos and a servo points decoder! Upgrade to slow motion for free.

[gwrcollet]

  Hi John Geeee

I use the ECoS dcc point decoders and i found that they do not supply enouth power to operate point solenoid,

so I use a 12v relay boards connected to the decoder the relays are 10 amp rated you can get a 16 way board

that will work 8 solenoids, supply the power to the solenoids via a cpu unit, so I can now work 4 points in an

crossover on one channel of the decoder.

best of luck

Bryan

[RAF96]

I use the output from Hornby R8247 acc decoders to fire into the coil of a normal car headlight flasher relay which ports the output from a GM CDU to the solenoids. Yes it takes a lot of relays (2 per point motor) and takes up a lot of behind panel space, but it works and its dead reliable.

On the back of this in parallel I have a standard manual point selection system (in my case comprising rotary switches with two press to make button switches per rotary selection) to fire the same CDU to straight or branch.

Best of both worlds, hand selection and DCC, so I can make use of pc routing, etc.

 

Although Hornby official line is one solenoid per port I have doubled up before and they fired a cross over combo OK.