Merchant Navy Class Freight Workings

[RateTheFreight]

Hi all,

 

Whilst I appreciate the Merchant Navy class were predominantly used on passenger workings, how often, if ever, we're they deployed on freight workings either during their SR or BR careers?

 

If they did work freight, what type of flows were they? Any particular examples of workings would be most welcome.

 

Cheers

 

G

[The Bigbee Line]

It would depend on what diagrams they had to cover. If they were 'spare' they could cover a failure if nothing else was available.

 

This is something I'm interested as I would like a rebuild, but don't want to run the ACE or the Arrow

[Bulleidnutter]

Have a flick through flickr. Might throw up the odd ball shot of a Merchant on a fast fitted freight. Ive not seen a photo but it doesnt mean it didnt happen.

[Rivercider]

In 'The Southern Pacifics' by Roger Mannion there is a shot of unrebuilt  BR 35003 Royal  Mail

on a fitted van train passing Farnborough

 

 

cheers

[62613]

It would depend on what diagrams they had to cover. If they were 'spare' they could cover a failure if nothing else was available.

 

This is something I'm interested as I would like a rebuild, but don't want to run the ACE or the Arrow

MNs didn't run the 'Arrow' anyway, after about 1952, IIRC. It became a 'Brit' turn; one of them was 70014 'Iron Duke'

[SRman]

Rebuilt 35015, Rotterdam Lloyd,  was a regular on the 'Arrow' into the late 1950s and possibly early '60s. From memory, it was the only MN allocated to Stewarts Lane after rebuilding. Unrebuilt 35001 and 35028 were also allocated to Stewarts Lane until 1959, when they were rebuilt and moved away to the SW section - they could also work the 'Arrow' but I'm not sure how often this occurred.

Apologies to the OP as we are drifting away from his original query.

[Rivercider]

Southern Steam Sunset by John Bird contains table showing the steam workings

during the last week of steam on the Southern w/e 9/7/67.

 

I don't know what the vehicles would be but on July 5th 35003 (again)

is shown to have worked the 14.45 Weymouth - Westbury with a train of tomatoes (from the Channel Isles?)

 

cheers

[Rivercider]

Last Days of Steam on the Southern LSWR by Alan Postlethwaite has a picture dated 26/6/60

of 35010 Blue Star with empty milk tanks passing westwards through Raynes Park

 

cheers

[NXEA!]

Here's another milk working: http://www.weymouthmra.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/MilkTankers2.jpg

[Fat Controller]

Southern Steam Sunset by John Bird contains table showing the steam workings

during the last week of steam on the Southern w/e 9/7/67.

 

I don't know what the vehicles would be but on July 5th 35003 (again)

is shown to have worked the 14.45 Weymouth - Westbury with a train of tomatoes (from the Channel Isles?)

 

cheers

It would have been slightly later when I visited Weymouth, but the Channel Islands produce trains were still running- stock was a mixture of ex-GW Goods Fruit Vans (as per Mainline/ Bachmann) and Mex-Fruits (Dapol), along with Fruit Vans of BR/ LMS and LNER origin, along with quite a few containers.

[br2975]

I was under the impression thge 'Packets' were mixed traffic locos anyway.

.

The story allegedly goes that OVS Bulleid and the Southern Railway powers told the wartime government that the locos would be 'mixed traffic' in order that the Southern were permitted to build them during times of austerity (a sort of reverse logic to the Q1 ?). 

.

EDIT (added):-

.

Just had a scan thro' "Southern Steam Sunset" which includes a photo by Sid Nash of 73092 on the last steam departure from Weymouth i.e. 15:00 Weymouth - Westbury perishables (Channel Island tomatoes) on 9th July 1967.

.

The train is made up of ventilated vans, including Vanwides.

.

"Decline of Southern Steam" by Michael Welch has photos (colour) of all three Weymouth - Westbury perishables that ran that day, and all are fitted ventilated vans.

.

The same book also shows an unrebuilt WC passing Maiden Newton in June '67 with a similar working that includes a pair of light blue containers at the head, followed by a variety of  fitted ventilated vans 

.

Brian R

[30851]

According to "Operating British Railways History - Southern Region Part 1" the following freights were booked for Merchant Navy's in the 50's (and most likely the early 60's).

 

15:54 Clapham - Exeter (Empty Milk)

21:10 Nine Elms - Exmouth Jcn (Goods)

22:00 Nine Elms - Salisbury (Goods)

21:05 Templecombe -Clapham Jcn (Milk)

17:00 Torrington - Nine Elms (no doubt MN from Exeter)

 

 

Rob

[The Stationmaster]

According to "Operating British Railways History - Southern Region Part 1" the following freights were booked for Merchant Navy's in the 50's (and most likely the early 60's).

 

15:54 Clapham - Exeter (Empty Milk)

21:10 Nine Elms - Exmouth Jcn (Goods)

22:00 Nine Elms - Salisbury (Goods)

21:05 Templecombe -Clapham Jcn (Milk)

17:00 Torrington - Nine Elms (no doubt MN from Exeter)

 

 

Rob

Although to be pedantic Milk Trains were not freight trains (neither were parcels trains come to that).

[RateTheFreight]

All,

Thanks for your detailed responses, this forum really is a gold mine of info.

 

I like the idea of running a MN on an express milk or parcels service. I've now got a vision of one MN passing on the Up with a freight and another MN passing on the Down with a passenger service on my layout.

 

I wonder whether any of the class that saw active service during the war ever hauled unusual 'war related' freight (e.g. ammunition, armaments, etc).

 

Either way, they are a fascinating class and good looking class and one hope's one of the major RTR companies brings out an air smoothed casing version to compliment the excellent re-built versions.

 

Cheers

 

Greg

[BMacdermott]

Hello G

 

I have some SR Engine Workings for the late 1950s/early 60s. A quick look has shown MNs rostered on Freight (as opposed to Passenger, Milk etc):

Nine Elms Duty No.7

Salisbury Duty No.491

Exmouth Junction Duty No.527.

 

I'll have a look through what I have and let you have a PM in due course.

 

Regards

 

Brian

[The Stationmaster]

All,

Thanks for your detailed responses, this forum really is a gold mine of info.

 

I like the idea of running a MN on an express milk or parcels service. I've now got a vision of one MN passing on the Up with a freight and another MN passing on the Down with a passenger service on my layout.

 

I wonder whether any of the class that saw active service during the war ever hauled unusual 'war related' freight (e.g. ammunition, armaments, etc).

 

Either way, they are a fascinating class and good looking class and one hope's one of the major RTR companies brings out an air smoothed casing version to compliment the excellent re-built versions.

 

Cheers

 

Greg

In their early days when the first three were confined west of Salisbury they were in the end kept off passenger work and confined to freights until various teething problems were resolved.

[Forester]

As the OP's question has been answered and the thread is now quiet, may I just reply to the earlier confusion concerning the Merchant Navy class and the Golden Arrow.

 

Channel Packet, then 21C1 and an Exmouth loco, was chosen for the trials, the inaugural run and the first couple of weeks service in 1946.  Now back at Exmouth, it was fitted with new style deflectors and side sheets and lost its tell-tale arrow clips. It returned to Stewarts Lane in 1957 but was never again part of the Golden Arrow stable, being used instead on the Night Ferry.

The Golden Arrow now became a regular West Country Class turn.

 

Extra Pullmans were added to the Arrow in late 1949/50, increasing its weight. This together with the problems involved in double-heading the near 600 ton Night Ferry brought the region its first permanent allocation of Merchant Navy power.

35028 Clan Line, 35029 Ellerman Lines and 35030 Elder-Dempster Lines went to Dover in late 1949.  35025 Brocklebank Line, 35026 Lamport & Holt Line, 35027 Port Line went to Stewarts Lane in early 1950 and were joined by Clan Line from Dover. Of these 35025 and 35029 do not seem to have been part of the Golden Arrow stable but the others were regular performers in the early 1950s.

Two Britannias 70004 William Shakespeare and 70014 Iron Duke joined the team in 1951, along with a brand new Pullman set.

 

The Golden Arrow peak loads had passed by the mid 1950s as air travel got into its stride and Light Pacifics.once again shared the task, this time with the Britannias. 35030 departed in 1955. 35026 was replaced in 1957 by 35001 Channel Packet, but as noted above this loco did not return to the Golden Arrow stable. 35027 was replaced in 1955 by 35014 Nederland Line (also not fitted for the Arrow) which in turn was replaced in 1956 by 35015 Rotterdam Lloyd. This latter was (I think) only fitted for the Arrow after it was rebuilt in 1958. (Grateful for evidence, if any, in original form; plenty of photos exist in rebuilt form - the only rebuilt MN to be fitted)

 

With the departure of the Britannias, also in 1958, there followed a brief return of Merchant Navy power to the Golden Arrow with rebuilt 35015 and 35028 still in original condition but now repainted and resplendent with a late crest on the original high-sided tender. Both departed in June 1959, ending Merchant Navy involvement with the train, which returned to Light Pacific power for its final steam days,

 

Despite numerous mis-identifications of photographs (and the over-active imaginations of one or two notable railway artists who should have known better!), of the Merchant Navy Class only the six shown in bold were ever fitted for Golden Arrow service. That is not to say other locos did not come to the rescue of a failed loco occasionally but they were not fitted to carry the full regalia.

[Bibby Line]

Interesting topic.

 

I will also check my records but for many years the 11 am down ACE was a Nine Elms MN duty.

 

It's return working was non passenger.

 

Eddie

[roythebus]

Maybe the place to ask this question is the Nine Elms locoshed forum? they have quite a collection of rosters and the like, and it's still frequented by the men who used to work thee machines.

 

Interesting to note that all the workings above seem to be fully fitted; maybe the MNs didn't have the braking capacity to work unfitted? 

[SRman]

Chances are you are right, Roy. Somewhere on YouTube there is some footage of a West Country/Battle of Britain reversing into Waterloo, light engine, travelling at some speed past the camera with all driving wheels locked solid! I would guess the MNs were much the same.

[30851]

Other possible reasons for these all been fully fitted trains is that these workings were out and back in a day workings. Not sure if there were any unfitted SR London - Exeter frieghts but if they were then they would have possibly taken too long (I assume they would spend a lot of time in Salisbury) and would have ended up in Feltham not Clapha/Nine Elms/Waterloo.

 

And in case you are wondering- the full list of 10 MN's diagrams I have for the Exeter line (and I am sure they changed over time). They are organised by departure from London.

 

Ex Junc 498 01:25 Waterloo - Plymouth / 15:50 Plymouth Waterloo

N Elms 4 09:00 Waterloo - Plymouth / 14:20 Ilfracombe Waterloo

N Elms 5 11:00 Waterloo - Plymouth / 21:05 (Milk) Templecombe - Clapham (you are correct Eddie)

Sal 431 13:00 Waterloo - Plymouth / 08:15 Salisbury - Waterloo

                                                          16:40 Plymouth - Salisbury

N Elms 7 15:00 Waterloo - Plymouth - 17:00 (Goods) Torringtopn - Nine Elms

Ex Jun 494 15:54 Clapham - Exteter (Milk) / 06:30 Exeter - Waterloo

Ex Jun 496 17:00 Waterloo - Exteter  / 08:15 Plymouth - Waterloo

Ex Jun 495 18:00 Waterloo - Exteter  / 07:30 Exeter - Waterloo

Ex Jun 497 21:10 Nine Elms - Exmouth Jcn (Goods) / 10:30 Ilfracombe - Waterloo

Sal 461 22:00 Nine Elms - Salisbury (Goods) / 08:05 Salisbury - Exeter 

                                                                        12:20 Ilfracombe - Waterloo

 

Note - none of there go past Exeter.

 

And I am sure there is some typing errors in there (in fact there were some in this line)!!

 

Rob

[roythebus]

It would seem a waste of motive power using MNs on unfitted freight, which usually took days to get from A to B. Why use an MN when a Q1 or something older was available? It would make sense to use them on back-workings of passenger duties on a fast freight though.

[roythebus]

I just had a quick look on the Nine Elms site and found this lot that's just been posted. depicting the Loco Exchanges. sorry I can't paste the link at the mo, but look up Nine Elms Loco, Russell Coffin collection. There's some fascinating stuff there including Mallard at NE, an LMS loco with a WD tender, MN at Perth... 

[Rivercider]

It would seem a waste of motive power using MNs on unfitted freight, which usually took days to get from A to B. Why use an MN when a Q1 or something older was available? It would make sense to use them on back-workings of passenger duties on a fast freight though.

Looking through my various books the Nine Elms freights from the West Country often include a significant number of containers

some of which will no doubt be loaded with meat. There are also a lot of vans, agricultural produce was another important traffic from the west.

The overnight Nine Elms workings were often referred to as express freights, traffic from the west would arrive in London in time for the next morning markets.

 

I am guessing unfitted traffic from the west for London would pass on services to Salisbury for onward connections, S15s seemed to be common on these services,

 

cheers

[Fat Controller]

Sounds odd, I know, but I wonder if they might have turned up on the trunk ballast workings from Meldon to places like Woking? These were early examples of fully-fitted block trains, with stock capable of relatively high speeds.