Mishap on GCR

[LMS2968]

I had little to do with 37s in my time on BR but don't recall any handbrake issues. Certainly a 40 had to be scotched if you expected it to still be there when you got back. The trick was to remember to take the scotches out before moving off. There was a lot of firewood around Edge Hill, as I recall!

[Titan]

Would it be just a little too pedantic of me to mention that inertia is for things that go round and round like flywheels/wheels and momentum is for things that go backwards and forwards? Ok technically a train does have a tiny bit of inertia due to the wheels and motors spinning, but the vast majority is momentum.

[avonside1563]

Would it be just a little too pedantic of me to mention that inertia is for things that go round and round like flywheels/wheels and momentum is for things that go backwards and forwards? Ok technically a train does have a tiny bit of inertia due to the wheels and motors spinning, but the vast majority is momentum.

Yes it would seeing as that's not correct.

 

Quote: "Inertia is the resistance of any physical object to any change in its state of motion, including changes to its speed and direction. In other words, it is the tendency of objects to keep moving in a straight line at constant linear velocity." (Taken from Wikipedia)

[Talltim]

Inertia is something that needs to be overcome to gain momentum

[AngryMeerkat]

Would it be just a little too pedantic of me to mention that inertia is for things that go round and round like flywheels/wheels and momentum is for things that go backwards and forwards? Ok technically a train does have a tiny bit of inertia due to the wheels and motors spinning, but the vast majority is momentum.

Inertia - noun

 

1. A tendency to do nothing or remain unchanged.

 

2. (Physics) a property of matter by which it continues in its existing state of rest or uniform motion IN A STRAIGHT LINE, unless that state is changed by an external force.

Resistance to change in some other physical property.

 

Definition from the Oxford English Dictionary.

 

Please be as pedantic as you like, as long as you are correct!

 

Mark

[PhilJ W]

Hello all,

 

it has now been reported (below) that the indecent was during a shunting move.

http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/another-incident-at-the-great-central.3559/page-2#post-93780

 

OzzyO.

Ooo indecent as well, just as well then that the police weren't called.  

[Titan]

Oh drat, looks like I got that one mixed up. Engage brain and all that...

[Boris]

Hello all,

 

it has now been reported (below) that the indecent was during a shunting move.

 

Got it in one!

 

Look, never mind arguing about the physics of it, if Newton hadn't invented gravity we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

And whilst I'm on the soap box racer it doesn't matter how many handbrakes you apply if the bloody things aren't effective as the NYMR found out a couple of years ago.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Wish I'd never mentioned inertia at all, even that's caused a fall out!

 

Mike.

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

it has now been reported (below) that the indecent was during a shunting move.

http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/another-incident-at-the-great-central.3559/page-2#post-93780

 

OzzyO.

 

Opps, looks like I was having finger trouble, I think that you all know that I meant incident 

Ooo indecent as well, just as well then that the police weren't called.  

 

The police may have been called to this indecent incident,

 

Got it in one!

 

Look, never mind arguing about the physics of it, if Newton hadn't invented gravity we wouldn't be in this mess.

 

And whilst I'm on the soap box racer it doesn't matter how many handbrakes you apply if the bloody things aren't effective as the NYMR found out a couple of years ago.

 

I don't think that Newton invented gravity!

No nuke-flasks where harmed in the making of this fall out

 

 

No nuclear flasks were harmed at Barrow! But I'm not sure about some-ones job! 

 

OzzyO.

[Porcy Mane]

If it was a runaway - pure speculation on my part by the way - that is a heck of a long way to roll without anybody noticing, or being able to do anything.

I think there has been runaways of far greater length. The tragic Tebay incident springs immediately to mind and there's this from a posting yesterday:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/15402-the-tyne-dock-consett-thread/page-5&do=findComment&comment=1452845

 

Apparently the Healy Mills Class 40s had a bit of a reputation too.

 

Porcy

[The Stationmaster]

I think there has been runaways of far greater length. The tragic Tebay incident springs immediately to mind and there's this from a posting yesterday:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/15402-the-tyne-dock-consett-thread/page-5&do=findComment&comment=1452845

 

Apparently the Healy Mills Class 40s had a bit of a reputation too.

 

Porcy

All Class 40s had that reputation (as noted above) - their handbrakes were notoriously unreliable and in the end the locos carried their own set of scotches around with them plus Instructions they were not to be stabled without being scotched as well as having the handbrake applied.  And if one did start rolling there was an awful lot of weight there to help build up their momentum.

[trisonic]

Yep, and the self - adjusting brakes often didn’t and they were not too good anyway...

Best, Pete.

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

just out of interest has any one got a gradient profile for Quorn to Loughborough?

 

OzzyO.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Gradient is initially falling at 1 in 330, steepening to 1 in 176 for about a mile, then flattening to 1 in 355 before becoming level at L'boro.

 

Wonder if runaways such as this will result in fewer heritage lines leaving stock on running lines, rather than safely tucked-up in (protected) sidings?

[Boris]

Gradient is initially falling at 1 in 330, steepening to 1 in 176 for about a mile, then flattening to 1 in 355 before becoming level at L'boro.

 

Wonder if runaways such as this will result in fewer heritage lines leaving stock on running lines, rather than safely tucked-up in (protected) sidings?

I think it's more a question of having the luxury of protected sidings rather than anything else, most preserved railways find most spare siding space crammed with vehicles, it would be better were they to be a little more careful with their stabling procedures.

[Edwin_m]

Doesn't the regulation about protecting passenger running lines from sidings via trapping or derailers etc also apply to heritage lines? 

[Xerces Fobe2]

2 incidents on the GCR in the last year one with a catch point doing it's job and one without (if applicable). This may be seen as some as the GCR not paying enough attention to procedures and safety. I hope this is not the case and that there is not a common thread to this incidents, otherwise we could see another deluge of over the top restrictive practices that will be introduced which  could have a negative impact on preserved railways and their futures.

 

XF

[LMS2968]

The previous incident was not an issue with the TRAP points, which did their job as intended, but rather a signalling system breakdown. It might be better to wait until we find what actually happened in the second incident before drawing comparisons. At the moment, all that is really known is that a light engine ran away and collided with rolling stock.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

In confirmation of above, a useful bit of data I have lodged in my head is that the balancing speed for rail vehicles unpowered on a 1 in 200 is circa 80mph/130kph.

[phil-b259]

The previous incident was not an issue with the TRAP points, which did their job as intended, but rather a signalling system breakdown. It might be better to wait until we find what actually happened in the second incident before drawing comparisons. At the moment, all that is really known is that a light engine ran away and collided with rolling stock.

 

Correction

 

It was definitely not the signalling system that broke down - rather it was the case of human verbal communications (or the lack of them) that caused the problem. If you examine the footage of the previous incident you will note that despite (1) the trap points not making any attempt at movement plus (2) the signal allowing exit from the siding staying resolutely at danger, the crew set their train in motion. Thus either they weren't paying attention to the signals (which questions why they were on the loco in the first place) OR a pretty significant breakdown in verbal communications occurred with the result that the crew set off with the traps against them. Absolutely nothing to do with the signalling system employed whatsoever.

 

As regards the latest incident until the investigators have completed their job it is unwise to make sweeping judgements about the competency of individuals and organisations.

[The Stationmaster]

Correction

 

It was definitely not the signalling system that broke down - rather it was the case of human verbal communications (or the lack of them) that caused the problem. If you examine the footage of the previous incident you will note that despite (1) the trap points not making any attempt at movement plus (2) the signal allowing exit from the siding staying resolutely at danger, the crew set their train in motion. Thus either they weren't paying attention to the signals (which questions why they were on the loco in the first place) OR a pretty significant breakdown in verbal communications occurred with the result that the crew set off with the traps against them. Absolutely nothing to do with the signalling system employed whatsoever.

 

I understand that the loco crew had been instructed (by the Signalman, reportedly now an ex-Signalman) to pass the signal at danger - not that it would have relieved the Driver of the requirement to check that the points were correctly set of course.

[roythebus]

The KESR regularly stables stock in Tenterden Town platform at the top of the 1 in 36 (or whatever it is) grade. That stock is protected by a derailer in the event of handbrake failure. Stock stabled in the run-round is protected by the trap points.

[LMS2968]

I hate to disagree with you, Phil, but the actions of the bobby are definitely part of the signalling system, which is what I meant. I think the rest of my post indicated that the mechanical part worked as designed. It was the human part of the system which failed.

[Boris]

The KESR regularly stables stock in Tenterden Town platform at the top of the 1 in 36 (or whatever it is) grade. That stock is protected by a derailer in the event of handbrake failure. Stock stabled in the run-round is protected by the trap points.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they put scotches in as well, it's still easier to put a bit of metal/wood in there rather than spend time picking stuff up off the floor.

I hate to disagree with you, Phil, but the actions of the bobby are definitely part of the signalling system, which is what I meant. I think the rest of my post indicated that the mechanical part worked as designed. It was the human part of the system which failed.

The problem preserved railways have is that occasionally some unsuitable individuals end up where they shouldn't really be, I've worked on a number of preserved lines and I seen the GCR trap point incident nearly play out several times with the signalman being "unable to get the signal" because the interlocking is doing what it should be doing i,e. the road is not correctly set, unfortunately on the GCR it actually happened rather than being a nearly.

 

The issue is that volunteer signalman are likely to do rare moves less frequently and are more prone to mistakes if they don't work the cabin as regularly as they could do, especially at a gala when there is greater pressure and more unusual moves, and sods law says the biggest numpty ends up in the worst possible place, the world and his wife come out to play trains at a gala.