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Bachmann Warflats


Peter Bedding
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The GWR train diagrams http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/ww2-warflat-train-gwr-1.htm

Show alternate vac braked and vac piped warflats with a note underneath saying they are also air braked or piped.

I assume this means half the warflats were vac braked and air piped and the other half were air braked and vac piped.

 

In Russell  'Freight Wagons and Loads in service on GWR and BR WR' there is a photo of W160250 as a hand brake only Strip Coil in grey, still with side chains.

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So thanks to everyone who has added their thoughts to this.

 

Looking at the picture of the prototype for this model at Shildon it has a tank on it. But that doesnt make it a Warflat! Without jacks and in this livery its a FLAT WC. 

 

And based on the above comments it could be unbraked which ought to be grey - so no vac cylinders - or braked with brake cylinders but not air tanks - which ought to be bauxite. And fit the side chains if you want!

 

Pictures are not common - and thanks to Paul Bartlett as usual - but rule 1 applies, its your model....

 

 

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Following with interest, here’s one for you (taken from Robert Western’s ‘The Kendal & Windermere railway’)

ACF3500C-C0B8-4366-BBEE-F5FDB17C0F32.jpeg.88afa5dff50d3b583c63105317aacac1.jpeg

Those appear to still have their jacks on the ends.  Now I suspect the date In the caption is wrong, my father knew the younger of the two blokes in civvies (LH, with hat) and apparently it’s the first shipment of Ferguson TE20 tractors to Kendal, so early 1950’s at the latest.

 

Owain

 

 

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A mixture of Lowfits https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brlowfit (all look to be wooden examples)

 

The wagon at the front is a Carfit S https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/sropenmerch/eb80c048 or Conflat D https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srconflat I need to look up the number

 

and the 2nd wagon that can be seen in full appears to be an LMS one plank with fixed side and end (which would have made loading difficult) https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsopen/e255e7fae

 

Paul

The SR wagon is what was known on BR as a Carfit S, although the SR had originally called them Conflat A. Diag 1399 There is a drawing and photos inBixley, G, Blackburn, A. Chorley, R. & King, M. & Newton, J. (2002) An illustrated history of SR Wagons, Volume 4, Oxford Publishing Co. ISBN 86093 564 7. 160 pages

Edited by hmrspaul
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45 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

Those tractors reminded me of this photo of Massey's going through Coventry enroute to Southampton. Not warflats [ what are they ? ]but useful anyway to see how they were loaded.

 

2143180927_MFtractorsCov61.jpg.bebaa42e32fe2a165a46e807458fe37c.jpg

Dunno about the wagons, but the tractors are Massey-Ferguson 35’s...

 

Owain 

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59 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

A very interesting photograph. I would love to know the background to that photo. Does seem a considerable number of new, expensive, tractors for a part of the world where agriculture has always been hard.

 

Paul

Here’s what I know, it’s not complete.  My father knew the younger of the two blokes in civvies, he and the gaffer next to him ran the local Ferguson agents at the time.  Now my father also knew his son and at some stage my interest in railways came up in conversation. Son mentioned deliveries of tractors to Kendal by rail, the old man mentioned it to me, and I remembered seeing that photo and dug it out.  

 

On on the date, I reckon (speaking as someone who rebuilt three fergies) going by various details those are either the early TE-20 fitted with the continental petrol engine (made from 1946-48) or the TEA-20, fitted with the standard motor co.’s own petrol engine (made from 1947-56).  My gut is they’re TEA-20’s.  Now the old gaffer in the photo remembered it as the first big delivery to Kendal, (I reckon there’s at least 21 in that load).  But at that time they supplied a large area (the only other dealers were Carlisle, Barrow and Preston iirc).  Cumbria embraced the fergie, it was ideal for the smaller mixed farms and remained a Ferguson stronghold for a long time. 

 

It can’t be as the caption thinks, because the fergie went out of production in 1956.  So my gut for a date is probably 1948.

 

 

Owain

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And a bit like buses turning up, I’ve just found another!  Taken from Michael Thorne’s ‘Ferguson TE20 in detail’.  No idea of location, tractors are either TE-A’s or TE-D’s (covers hiding possible vaporiser shield round exhaust manifold which is the easy recognition feature and they’re not TE-F’s, there’s no toolbox on the wings - you rebuild three of these, you get to know the little details).

D351E9C5-E7B6-4A9B-AC57-A66DC7517BB7.jpeg.157fd704ef90efeaa004b2e1c72944f2.jpeg

 

Owain

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22 minutes ago, Firecracker said:

And a bit like buses turning up, I’ve just found another!  Taken from Michael Thorne’s ‘Ferguson TE20 in detail’.  No idea of location, tractors are either TE-A’s or TE-D’s (covers hiding possible vaporiser shield round exhaust manifold which is the easy recognition feature and they’re not TE-F’s, there’s no toolbox on the wings - you rebuild three of these, you get to know the little details).

D351E9C5-E7B6-4A9B-AC57-A66DC7517BB7.jpeg.157fd704ef90efeaa004b2e1c72944f2.jpeg

 

Owain

And a lonely Rectank mixed in with the warflats. (second wagon). Nice.

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for a WW2 layout I would need 38-725 WD 50T 'Warflat' Bogie Wagon WD Khaki Green With Cromwell MKIV Tank (I think the tank is a Centaur IV Close Support version with a 95 mm howitzer which saw service in small numbers), seems odd as the much more common cromwell tank with the 75mm gun is on the WD Bronze Green Wagon which is in post war livery ?

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3 hours ago, dube said:

for a WW2 layout I would need 38-725 WD 50T 'Warflat' Bogie Wagon WD Khaki Green With Cromwell MKIV Tank (I think the tank is a Centaur IV Close Support version with a 95 mm howitzer which saw service in small numbers), seems odd as the much more common cromwell tank with the 75mm gun is on the WD Bronze Green Wagon which is in post war livery ?

 

I doubt that the overwhelming majority of potential purchasers would be any the wiser - or care !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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23 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

I doubt that the overwhelming majority of potential purchasers would be any the wiser - or care !

 

Much the same could be said of pretty much all of the minutiae debated on RMWeb!

 

Doesn't make it unimportant to some though.

Edited by truffy
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14 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

Much the same could be said of pretty much all of the minutiae debated on RMWeb!

 

Doesn't make it unimportant to some though.

 

Quite so - I was simply making the point that the issue would not have figured high in Bachmann's priorities.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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5 hours ago, dube said:

for a WW2 layout I would need 38-725 WD 50T 'Warflat' Bogie Wagon WD Khaki Green With Cromwell MKIV Tank (I think the tank is a Centaur IV Close Support version with a 95 mm howitzer which saw service in small numbers), seems odd as the much more common cromwell tank with the 75mm gun is on the WD Bronze Green Wagon which is in post war livery ?

 

Cromwell's and Centaurs are essentially the same tank with different motors. The Cromwell having the Merlin engine giving it plenty of guts. Centaurs were only used in combat by the Royal Marines (about 30 of them off the top of my head), they were all CS versions normally with the bow machine gun suppressed. But Cromwell CS versions existed as well. They were intended for HQ units though most were off loaded to the Czech brigade by June 1944. 

 

In fact the history of the Centaur, Cromwell and Comet group is quite complex as the three tanks are in essence the same tank. Comet being a Centaur with a Merlin engine upgrade, the Comet being a Cromwell with a new turret (admittedly the Comet used mostly the F type hull, rarely seen on a Cromwell, while the Cromwell used mostly a D type used just once on a Comet). For me, the differences are like comparing early Shermans to late Shermans which were not renamed despite the vast improvements.

 

By 1944, most tanks in UK use had a proper High Explosive capacity so the need for CS was rather redundant. Post war, while normal Cromwell's were still being used by Recce units, I suspect the CS type was largely phased out/converted to other roles.    

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2 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

Cromwell's and Centaurs are essentially the same tank with different motors. The Cromwell having the Merlin engine giving it plenty of guts. Centaurs were only used in combat by the Royal Marines (about 30 of them off the top of my head), they were all CS versions normally with the bow machine gun suppressed. But Cromwell CS versions existed as well. They were intended for HQ units though most were off loaded to the Czech brigade by June 1944. 

 

In fact the history of the Centaur, Cromwell and Comet group is quite complex as the three tanks are in essence the same tank. Comet being a Centaur with a Merlin engine upgrade, the Comet being a Cromwell with a new turret (admittedly the Comet used mostly the F type hull, rarely seen on a Cromwell, while the Cromwell used mostly a D type used just once on a Comet). For me, the differences are like comparing early Shermans to late Shermans which were not renamed despite the vast improvements.

 

By 1944, most tanks in UK use had a proper High Explosive capacity so the need for CS was rather redundant. Post war, while normal Cromwell's were still being used by Recce units, I suspect the CS type was largely phased out/converted to other roles.    

Whether it's a reflection on their reliabilty, but many of the RM Centaurs seem to have only made it a little distance inland after the landings; there are several in the middle of roundabouts around  Ouisterham as memorials.

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All three versions are now in stock! 

The tanks have magnets under them which holds them nicely to the base of the wagon, quite a clever design I felt.

 

38-725.jpg.2109d0989db20614c82a7f7c24d3ea74.jpg

 

38-725 WD 50T 'WARFLAT' BOGIE WAGON WD KHAKI GREEN WITH CROMWELL MKIV TANK

 

38-726.jpg.378d7b80a8ab730d84ad9808b1340394.jpg

 

38-726 WD 50T 'WARFLAT' BOGIE WAGON WD BRONZE GREEN WITH CROMWELL MKIV TANK

 

38-727.IMG_0486.jpg.4e7b83d27d9a96ad604154f132c6aa5d.jpg

 

38-727 WD 50T 'WARFLAT' BOGIE WAGON BR GREY (EARLY)

 

 

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3 hours ago, truffy said:

Those tanks look like something out of a Christmas cracker.

 

I would wait to see them "in the flesh" as those photos are of the pre-production versions.

 

Look much better here.

 

http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/40246/38-725-Bachmann-Warflat-Bogie-Flat-Wagon-WD-Khaki

 

 

 

Jason

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Ok this is 38-725

 

This is the accessory pack, jacks, pipes, chains and couplings. 

The jacks restrict bogie swing a bit on tighter radii and adding the safety chains would limit it more. 

 

623460BD-C2A0-4856-9C14-7A7F41979336.jpeg.4b1de4d096e339f34a89bcf04573639e.jpeg

 

underneath

9164FECD-8124-436C-86FE-96FB4BA2A52E.jpeg.989e030a31aa7aa6294b8d5f41547f3d.jpeg

 

the tank is still slightly plasticky so a coat of matt varnish may help. 

0FCC507A-8E9C-4169-8637-A2200F7351A8.jpeg.b5b062db9d73389e3724ded2342980c4.jpeg

 

You’ll need larger than 19” radii to run with the jacks in place.

50FA3E70-49A0-4B10-8D58-8BA7BB7BFF47.jpeg.e33969c4c4ffb4950a4bf6b44a869cb4.jpeg

Edited by PaulRhB
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