westie7 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 This will probably be included in a new thread about modifying Hornby PCAs, but here are a few rough shots showing what is required to bring the height of the Hornby PCA down so the chassis and buffers match that of the Bachmann Metalair PCA. My first attempt at Bill Bedford W-Irons and I am hooked Before The Mods The result at solebar level And at the top Which looks a lot closer like the photos on Martyn's website Now all that is left is to shave the top of the suspension and get them stuck back on, Brake discs on the wheels and some couplings Rgds Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tase Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Mark, that looks much better! Very good work. Now, I've got 21 Hornby PCA's and last week I got a few of the Bachmann ones. Looks like I'm going yo have to make the modifications like you have in order to run both types together. So, my question is what type of W iron have you used - a code number or similar would be great please - and where can I get them from? Thanks in advance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westie7 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Tase Its Bill Bedford BBWF083-4 From Eileens Emporium https://www.eileensemporium.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=eny_fly_default.tpl&product_id=5774&category_id=288&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=9 And waisted bearings from the same Most of the pipes on the Hornby just push out of their holes to leave you free to work, The brake hangers and the couplings came off also Rgds Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tase Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Much appreciated Mark. I'll get some ordered and crack on... Thanks again. Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westie7 Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Much appreciated Mark. I'll get some ordered and crack on... Thanks again. Regards Wow, 21 wagons, 3 sets per etch, 7 etches, Better you than me. I've got 2 Hornby to do and a Lima Tripolyphosphate and I'll need to do some eye exercises after that. Rgds Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tase Posted May 22, 2014 Share Posted May 22, 2014 Wow, 21 wagons, 3 sets per etch, 7 etches, Better you than me. I've got 2 Hornby to do and a Lima Tripolyphosphate and I'll need to do some eye exercises after that. Rgds Mark Ha!...yes, this is going to be a labour of love rather than a 'gotta do it by this date'. Anyway, 7 sets and bearings already ordered...I'll await the postie next week.... Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westie7 Posted May 28, 2014 Share Posted May 28, 2014 More on the Hornby PCA mods in its own topic now http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/86310-lowering-the-Hornby-pca/ rgds Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveb860 Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 Anyone wishing to bring the underframe height of their depressed centre wagons down to match the Bachmann offerings and don't want the faff of a running gear rebuild could of course just fit 10mm wheel sets. Much cheaper, quicker, and the difference in wheel size is barely noticeable. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rembrow Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Thanks Steve. Received today 12 Alan Gibson 10.5mm lowmac disc wheel axle sets and used a couple in one Hornby PCA to try the suggested fix. Due to the width of the suspension frames and fittings on the PCA, with limited, if any gaps to be able to see from the outside in, the use of these lower diameter wheels is an excellent cheat, as you won't be able to see the wheels at the top or sides anyway, due to the denseness caused by the suspension frames and springs and the amount visible below the suspension is limited anyway. With these fitted, the buffer height matched the Bachmann PCA and surprisingly, the couplers were at the same height. Many thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Just a quick questiona about the livery on these wagons. Were they all delivered in the 'Blue Circle Cement' livery like 38-650? losing this branding over time. Or were some delivered without this from new? Thanks David It looks like David never got an answer to the same question that I have. The only reference that I've found so far is on the Rail Express website, which states that "a small number of the PCAs gained attractive BCC logos in 2000". I assume that this is the branding on 38-650 but I cannot confirm that. However a photograph of 10683 on Flickr (which is the same wagon represented by release 38-650) was apparently taken on 23 June 1993, which appears to contradict Rail Express with regards the date at which this livery was carried. The alternative is of course that Rail Express are referring to different logos. Like David, I originally assumed that this was a branding that was applied when built and that it was either removed or otherwise lost over time and as such, I assumed that these predated my time period (circa 2007), but a look at Martyn Read's website seems to show some wagons that still had this branding 10 years ago in 2006. Numbers noted in Martyn's photographs include 11017, 11024, 11026, 11038 and 11045. Interestingly 11038 is one that Bachmann have portrayed in weathered form, without any Blue Circle markings showing through. I'd therefore like to know anything more about this livery, if anyone can enlighten me. When was it applied? How many wagons were so treated? When were these markings removed? etc. I also note that Martyn has a photograph of 11024 with the Blue Circle branding in 2006 and another without it in 2007 (albeit it is the opposite side of the wagon), which suggests that either the livery was purposefully removed between these dates, or the livery was only applied to one side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Hiya - As far as I understand it a small rake, (off the top of my head 6-ish?) got the branding added (at the same time and for the same reason as the yellow cargowaggons were painted) for promoting new services - 2000 would be about right. The livery lasted until the wagons next repaint, these did seem to be on some kind of a rolling cycle of repaints at the time.11109 (to add to your list) was the last example I shot in that livery in 2011. I think it's since been repainted.Going back beyond that - As far as I understand it they were generally plain grey from new - although a lower number one (10683) was shown in a similar (not identical) scheme on the builders photo on a Powell Duffryn data sheet (image courtesy Paul Bartlett): http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bccmetalair/h5788551c#h5788551c - I've never seen an image of that particular one in traffic in that livery though, you'd have though somebody would have shot it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Hiya - As far as I understand it a small rake, (off the top of my head 6-ish?) got the branding added (at the same time and for the same reason as the yellow cargowaggons were painted) for promoting new services - 2000 would be about right. The livery lasted until the wagons next repaint, these did seem to be on some kind of a rolling cycle of repaints at the time. 11109 (to add to your list) was the last example I shot in that livery in 2011. I think it's since been repainted. Going back beyond that - As far as I understand it they were generally plain grey from new - although a lower number one (10683) was shown in a similar (not identical) scheme on the builders photo on a Powell Duffryn data sheet (image courtesy Paul Bartlett): http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bccmetalair/h5788551c#h5788551c - I've never seen an image of that particular one in traffic in that livery though, you'd have though somebody would have shot it! 10683 was in the Branded livery when I found it at Tees working out of Weardale in June 1991. 10684 was also in this liver between 6/91 and 4/94 11014 & 026 were ex works in Warrington on the 11-7-99 with an equally ex works Yellow Cargowaggon Van! 11107 was still in this livery on the 6th of May 2016 I believe the return to plain Grey was due to Lafarge dropping the Blue Circle brand! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Going back beyond that - As far as I understand it they were generally plain grey from new - although a lower number one (10683) was shown in a similar (not identical) scheme on the builders photo on a Powell Duffryn data sheet (image courtesy Paul Bartlett): http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bccmetalair/h5788551c#h5788551c - I've never seen an image of that particular one in traffic in that livery though, you'd have though somebody would have shot it! Thanks Martyn. The Flickr photograph that I linked to in post #35 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/cheshielines/14557156969) is of 10683 in the same livery as the Powell Duffryn data sheet that you linked to. It appears that Paul Bartlett's photograph is the one that Bachmann have used as the basis for their model. I assume that this was therefore the only wagon to carry this livery from new (ie a promotional livery). However, by 1993 (the stated date of the in traffic photograph), it is quite heavily weathered and it appears that the yellow data panel to the bottom left had been overprinted, meaning that Bachmann's version of 10683 is probably only correct for a few years from construction in 1984. I hadn't noted that this livery (on 10683) differed from the others, apart from the positioning of the letters PCA in the TOPS panel, but I notice the alignment / size of the Blue Circle Cement lettering is also slightly different now that you have brought this to my attention. My initial instinct had been to try and remove the branding, but now I'm tempted to keep it for a little variety in a rake of otherwise grey wagons. Of course if I can actually find a more recent picture of 10683, then I may have to go back to plan A. Clearly a rake of these wagons in Blue Circle branding would not be accurate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WILLIAM Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Are the liveries on Bachmann 38-650 and 38-650A identical and therefore incorrect on the latter model? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Are the liveries on Bachmann 38-650 and 38-650A identical and therefore incorrect on the latter model? William, Looking at the Bachmann website, the answer would appear to be no the liveries are not identical and Bachmann have modelled each wagon correctly with the required changes to the lettering and TOPS panel, albeit the two liveries were possibly not around concurrently, so a train with a mix of 38-650 and 38-650A would not be correct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westie7 Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 It looks like David never got an answer to the same question that I have. The only reference that I've found so far is on the Rail Express website, which states that "a small number of the PCAs gained attractive BCC logos in 2000". I assume that this is the branding on 38-650 but I cannot confirm that. However a photograph of 10683 on Flickr (which is the same wagon represented by release 38-650) was apparently taken on 23 June 1993, which appears to contradict Rail Express with regards the date at which this livery was carried. The alternative is of course that Rail Express are referring to different logos. Like David, I originally assumed that this was a branding that was applied when built and that it was either removed or otherwise lost over time and as such, I assumed that these predated my time period (circa 2007), but a look at Martyn Read's website seems to show some wagons that still had this branding 10 years ago in 2006. Numbers noted in Martyn's photographs include 11017, 11024, 11026, 11038 and 11045. Interestingly 11038 is one that Bachmann have portrayed in weathered form, without any Blue Circle markings showing through. I'd therefore like to know anything more about this livery, if anyone can enlighten me. When was it applied? How many wagons were so treated? When were these markings removed? etc. I also note that Martyn has a photograph of 11024 with the Blue Circle branding in 2006 and another without it in 2007 (albeit it is the opposite side of the wagon), which suggests that either the livery was purposefully removed between these dates, or the livery was only applied to one side. David I did think I had some other links to sites with historical data that may have helped you, most of them don't work any more but this one is still live http://paul3715.tripod.com/pca.htm Hope it helps Rgds Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
emdpowerrules Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 I photographed 11109/20/45 with blue circle branding in 2007 and 11107 in 2008. The last date I can identify a branded wagon in a train is July 2014 which is after class 70s started working out of Earles. The Lafarge PCA fleet was purchased by Freightliner HeavyHaul in June 2007 on a sale and leaseback deal. Might HeavyHaul taking over maintenance contributed to the debranding? I don't know if that contract still stands or if any changes took place with Hope Construction taking over the Hope works. With deliveries of new bogie tanks I imagine most will be off to the the scrapyard soon. A comparison between tank top heights on Vee and Metalair PCAs 100628a_PCA_BCC 10778 copy Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 The Blue Circle brand was dropped by Lafarge in the same way as Redland and only now is being brought back by Tarmac in its new form! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windjabbers Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Thanks for the further comments on my original question. What I have gleaned from the answers posted I’ve summarised below, please le me know what Ive got wrong. BLUE CIRCLE PCA CEMENT TANKS (METALAIR TYPE) Number of wagons Number Range Builder Year Built 32 10667 - 10699 Powell Duffryn 1984 32 10989 - 11021 Procor 1984 39 11022 - 11061 Powell Duffryn 1985 22 11062 - 11084 Procor 1985 54 11085 - 11139 Powell Duffryn 1986 2 11140 - 11141 Powell Duffryn 1987 181 Total Bachmann have produced the 5 following wagons Cat Ref Wagon Number Batch Livery Year of Release 38-650 10683 Powell Duffryn 1984 Blue Circle Cement grey 2013 38-650A 11017 Procor 1985 Blue Circle Cement grey 2016 38-651 11137 Powell Duffryn 1986 BCC plain grey 2013 38-651A 10690 Powell Duffryn 1984 BCC plain grey 2016 38-652 11038 Procor 1985 weathered BCC plain grey 2013 Livery details:- All Wagons are in ‘BCC plain grey’ apart from:- 10683 which was branded from new? And was one of a small number treated for promotional reasons. (10684 was also carried this Livery). A number of wagons, were branded with the Blue Circle Cement around 1999. These included:- 11014, 11017, 11024, 11026, 11107, 11109, 11120, 11038 and 11045. The Blue Circle Cement livery on 38-650/10683 and 38-650A/11017 are not identical and Bachmann have modelled each wagon correctly with the required changes to the lettering and TOPS panel, albeit the two liveries were possibly not around concurrently, so a train with a mix of 38-650 and 38-650A would not be correct. So taking the 5 Bachmann wagons you can buy here is the correct period for the livery they carry. Cat Ref Wagon Number Livery Correct Period for livery 38-650 10683 Blue Circle Cement grey 1984 to at least mid June 1993, possible later 38-650A 11017 Blue Circle Cement grey Sept 1999 to at least Sept 2006 possible later May 2016 probabilty still in this livery 38-651 11137 BCC plain grey 1986 to date 38-651A 10690 BCC plain grey 1984 to date 38-652 11038 weathered BCC plain grey 1985 to 1999 (When it received BCC Branding) Was back unbranded grey by 2012 Quite complicated for a set of small grey wagons! Best Wishes David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 11107 as it was in May. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windjabbers Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 11107 as it was in May. 11107 Tunstead.JPG Thanks Mark, I will amend my list Best Wishes David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Cat Ref Wagon Number Livery Correct Period for livery 38-650 10683 Blue Circle Cement grey 1984 to at least mid June 1993, possible later 38-650A 11017 Blue Circle Cement grey Sept 1999 to at least Sept 2006 possible later May 2016 probabilty still in this livery 38-651 11137 BCC plain grey 1986 to date 38-651A 10690 BCC plain grey 1984 to date 38-652 11038 weathered BCC plain grey 1985 to 1999 (When it received BCC Branding) Quite complicated for a set of small grey wagons! If you fancy adding your own graffiti then 11038 can also be contemporary. This wagon seems to have lost its BCC branding before 2012 - see the following: 11038 -1; 11038 - 2 As a follow on question, were most of these allocated exclusively to traffic from Hope - I don't recall ever having seen this livery on the flows out of Oxwellmains? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 11107 as it was in May. 11107 Tunstead.JPG I note that is a photograph of 11107, whereas the Bachmann model is 11017, but I'm sure the small difference in the order of the digits wouldn't be that noticeable with some heavy weathering. It's good to know that some of the branded wagons still survive for a little variety in what is otherwise a plain grey wagon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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