Newcastle Emlyn - Early goods rolling stock

[Anotheran]

Erm, is that your kitchen floor with nothing on it to protect it?  I shall look away now. 

It is indeed the kitchen floor, but no cutting, drilling or gluing actually take place on it, that was all outside. It's just a convenient level surface for putting bits down on to add weights while they're setting square... and for taking photos!

[simon47603]

Hi Neil

 

Just discovered your thread. A great plan which I will watch with interest.

 

Just to go back to your question on why you would push a train back towards the buffers once the loco had run round. One reason would be is, if you needed to lengthen the train either with an extra coach or to add a van or two. You would be able to strengthen the train quickly without any fuss and without any further shunting of the train as it's being loaded or unloaded.

 

Simon

[Anotheran]

Welcome aboard Simon. That seems a good explanation. Though in this case there was nothing added, but you're correct, if something had needed to be added there would have been no further shunting required.

[Donington Road]

Hi Neil

Just a thought, I know you like sticking to the prototype, but.........

I could not see the point of the cross over in the bay platform, surely any engine would not go through the goods shed.  I've tweaked the plan, may give you an idea, maybe not

 

 

As for the run round situation at Bodmin, don't forget that this is a preserved railway, that said, it is usually frowned upon to propel stock with passengers onboard, don't quote me but I think there are quite a few rules pertaining to this activity.

In pre-preservation days at other country termini the engine release cross over was sometimes quite a way back from the buffers.  The incoming train would most likely go to or within a few feet of the buffers where the passengers would disembark and then the doors closed by the guard.  No passengers would be allowed to board the stationary train.  The train would then be propelled back beyond the engine release, the engine would uncouple and perform the run round.  Once coupled up again, the train would be propelled back to the buffers where the departing passengers would then be allowed to board.  In preservation it is quite common for a lot of passengers to remain onboard for the return journey so the action of propelling said passengers like you witnessed seems a bit dubious to me.

[Anotheran]

Hi DR, thanks for commenting.

The crossover in the bay platform is a puzzle as it doesn't appear on the OS maps (of any year between 1906 and 1974) but does appear on the signalling diagram of the station. Unfortunately I can't find any photos to corroborate its existence.

However, I do have a photo of the eastern end of the goods shed. The points at that end are so close to the shed that without the crossover in the bay to the west of the shed the engine would have had to enter the shed in order to get to the spur siding that goes east from the shed. I too saw this as unlikely to have been desired, so I saw this as circumstantial evidence pointing to the existence of the crossover. My guess is that a freight train would pull in with the vans for the shed alongside the bay platform and then reverse across the crossover into the shed, thus staying outside the shed to the west. The loco could then run around the shed to pull the wagons out eastwards.

From the evidence I have from photos the bay was never actually used as a platform, but only as a location to place cattle trucks.  I'm not keen on making that road into a passenger only road. Not because it changes the look of the station, the ethos of which is clearly still NE, but because at no time in its history would NE traffic have justified a second passenger platform. At it's peak it saw just seven passenger trains per day.

 

I honestly have no idea how they would have worked it without occasionally driving a loco through the shed, but the crossover and the road beyond it into the bay make that less of a requirement. However, I'd love someone to come along and say... "it's obvious! This is how they would have done it..."  🤔

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran

[Anotheran]

I agree re the propelling backwards comments. I'm sure there are all sorts of rules that say you shouldn't really do it with passengers aboard. But I, and many others, were definitely on board when I took the video of it happening The majority of the time that the carriages were at the platform was when they were out away from the end as the water tower is next to the loco release road, so the loco took a while to run around the train. Once it was at the other end the train moved off fairly quickly. So if people hadn't been on the train for the push back manoeuvre then there would have been an almighty rush for everyone to board once it had occurred So still puzzled by that one.

 

Your description of going right up to the buffers, everyone disembarking and then push back beyond the loco release is what I would have expected, and indeed have seen on film and I'm pretty sure in real life. I think that is what I should model on NE when running. Which is why I was surprised by what I actually saw.

[gastwo]

Hi Neil

Found this in my collection and thought it may be of interest. It's either NCE or Llandyssul, we are not sure which.

The photo belongs to me, so there's no copyright problem.

ATB

Shaun.

 

 

[Anotheran]

Hi Shaun,

 

Thanks for a fascinating picture. If it's NE I can't work out exactly where it is as the building in the background is clearly wooden, but I will look again tomorrow. If I'm correct it's a 5800, but I can't make out the number, do you have any information on it?. 5819 was allocated to NE in 1947. The coach is a puzzle to me. I assume it's a push-pull car being used as a standard coach as the driving end is coupled to the loco. Or is it maybe an observation car?

 

Thank you for dropping in and posting such an interesting photo. Please feel free to add any more that you may have that can add more to my limited batch of pictorial information.

 

Kind regards, Neil

[gastwo]

Hi Neil.

 

Having done a little bit of digging, I don't think it's either NCE or Llandyssul. I think it might be Pencader, as the station there was timber construction, with two chimney stacks similar in structure to those in the photo.

I'm meeting a couple of friends at our 'Chuffer Duffers' get together in Cilgerran tomorrow, so I'll pick their brains (before the French red kicks in...)

 

Shaun.

[Anotheran]

Hi Shaun,

 

Looking at the disused station site Pencader does seem a good candidate, though there's no finial on the gable in your picture that was there in at least the earlier photos of the station. But the one on the eves facing the track looks very lopsided by the 50s, so the other may well have fallen off.

 

Enjoy the French red!

Neil

[gastwo]

Hi Neil

Bit More! That loco may not have gone down the Carmarthen - Cardigan branch, but it definitely was on the main line.

I found a picture of it at Lampeter station - it's a BBC web picture, so I don't know if pasting it is allowed...

I don't do auto links, so this is the copy and paste: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-12607631  it's the fourth picture along.

 

Shaun.

[MarkAustin]

Hi DR, thanks for commenting.

 

The crossover in the bay platform is a puzzle as it doesn't appear on the OS maps (of any year between 1906 and 1974) but does appear on the signalling diagram of the station. Unfortunately I can't find any photos to corroborate its existence.

 

However, I do have a photo of the eastern end of the goods shed. The points at that end are so close to the shed that without the crossover in the bay to the west of the shed the engine would have had to enter the shed in order to get to the spur siding that goes east from the shed. I too saw this as unlikely to have been desired, so I saw this as circumstantial evidence pointing to the existence of the crossover. My guess is that a freight train would pull in with the vans for the shed alongside the bay platform and then reverse across the crossover into the shed, thus staying outside the shed to the west. The loco could then run around the shed to pull the wagons out eastwards.

 

From the evidence I have from photos the bay was never actually used as a platform, but only as a location to place cattle trucks.  I'm not keen on making that road into a passenger only road. Not because it changes the look of the station, the ethos of which is clearly still NE, but because at no time in its history would NE traffic have justified a second passenger platform. At it's peak it saw just seven passenger trains per day.

I honestly have no idea how they would have worked it without occasionally driving a loco through the shed, but the crossover and the road beyond it into the bay make that less of a requirement. However, I'd love someone to come along and say... "it's obvious! This is how they would have done it..." 

Don't rely on OS maps for track layout: it was quite often the case that cross-overs etc were omitted. The signalling diagram is almost certainly correct.

 

Mark A

[Anotheran]

Hi Mark, thanks for the comment. Yes, I fully agree. I have assumed that the signalling diagram was correct for two reasons. Firstly, I also see them as more reliable as an OS surveyor and secondly, because it makes my movements around my model far more interesting 

[Anotheran]

That loco may not have gone down the Carmarthen - Cardigan branch, but it definitely was on the main line.

I found a picture of it at Lampeter station

 

Shaun,

 

Another really nice photo, but still frustratingly not able to supply a loco number. 

Didn't they realise that the number was so much more important than all those people lined up in front of it 

 

Regards, Neil

[Anotheran]

Well not much modelling done recently, either here or on DE. However, I have been spending money again!

 

I purchased a copy of the Great Western Railway Journal issue 37 on eBay (which was cheaper than from the publisher once the fact that it was free postage was taken in to account!) which has a 40 page article on the Newcastle Emlyn branch. That's in the post and should arrive by the end of the week... very much looking forward to that one!

 

I then jumped to Amazon and also bought a copy of John Holden's The Manchester and Milford Railway which although that is only the line from Aberystwyth to Pencader (it didn't quite make it either to Manchester or Milford before being consumed by the GWR) does have a large section on the locos of the company that were taken over by the GWR. Some of these were then used on the branch to Newcastle Emlyn. I'm particularly hoping there's some more information on Cader Idris which features in the earliest photo source I have of the station (from the disused-stations site) and which I very much want to replicate.

 

So yet more distractions from work....!

 

Neil

[Anotheran]

My copy of The Manchester & Milford Railway arrived this afternoon, so I had to take a short break from earning a crust to take a look through at what it had on Cader Idris. For those that don't know, that is the loco in the first picture on the disused-stations site, that I want to emulate... around 1911.

 

There's plenty of detail. Photos from both sides as well as the three quarter front view that is on disused-stations. In addition there is a GWR diagram with all of the relevant measurements 

 

So the question then is... can I use the Lanky 2-4-2T that I purchased for the purpose of masquerading as Cader Idris? Below is a part of the diagram. I've put the scaled measurements in mm in red, and then the equivalent measurements from the Lanky in blue.

 

 

So there are clearly some differences. The biggest one being the distance between the driving wheels and the leading and trailing wheels. The Lanky is a full 5 mm longer in these dimensions, giving a total of three feet extra length. But most of the other dimensions are pretty close. So can I live with that? It may not be good for the purists, but I think that I can make the other needed modifications and have a loco that is close enough to pass muster in pretty much any photo that I would want to take.

 

So in all, I'm very pleased. The book was a worthwhile purchase (it looks fascinating even if I wasn't after Cader Idris) and so was the Lanky. I'll need to put a lot of work in. The upper cab sides are flush with the tank sides on CI for example and there are a few extra pipes I need to add. But I think it's all doable. But it won't get done until I have a layout to run it on. Until NE is ready for some photography the Lanky will stay as it is and appear on Doxey firmly in LMS colours. Of course, that's the other thing that will need doing. The pictures show CI as clearly lined and definitely not black. I'm assuming green, but will need to research more for that. But for now she will remain LMS black!

 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Anotheran
Adding back images lost by site change

[Sasquatch]

This loco conversion sounds exiting Neil. For some reason converting locos and building them is the most satisfying part of the hobby! I'm saving this for when the dream layout is finished and the modeling budget can go solely on loco kits! Seems like we're on the same page.

 

Regards Squatch

[ChrisN]

Neil,

I think it would look the part, but then I am going to have to go down a similar route for Cambrian locos and use probably RTR chassis for my own superstructures.

 

There will be people however who will criticise because it is not exact, (just read the Hornby threads, no on second thoughts....), but in all honesty if you had the picture of the loco and a model that looked almost the same most people would not notice.

 

The really important thing is to get the detailing right for the time period.  Was the loco 'Swindonised' in 1911 and therefore had all GWR fittings, or was it in its original state?

 

Sounds a good plan.

[Anotheran]

Chris,

 

Unlike many of the other aquisitions Cader Idris didn't get many changes. It was outshopped in Neath after the transfer, in 1906, whereas most went to Swindon. It got a brass safety valve bonnet and was renumbered, from 6 to 1306, but was left with the name (unlike others I understand). It was actually the last of the M&MR locos to remain in service with GWR doing almost 300,000 miles with the GWR between then and 1919 when it was finally condemned. During that time it was rostered at Carmarthen and Pencader, so would have been a regular on the NE branch.

 

So, it will also be a regular on my layout for that period.

[Anotheran]

So yesterday I had Cader Idris and today the postman brought me the copy of GW Railway Journal issue 37, which has forty pages on the NE branch. This is full of pictures, half of which are for NE. As I'm working (in theory) I've not had time to read, but I see all sort of new things (rabbit traffic for example!) in the text as well as train formations, especially for the early years - I now know I need some four and six wheeled coaches for example (which I did know, but didn't have the formations).

 

As for the scenic side there are great pictures of the station, goods shed, signal box, turntable, engine shed, water tower, livestock dock... and multiples of many of those. Many of those buildings I've not had anything on except some very long range aerial shots from 1937! Now I have close ups. I'm particularly pleased about the photos of the turntable as I didn't think I was going to find that anywhere as it was even hidden on my 1937 overview shot. There's even a better aerial shot, which shows the coal staithes and crane. It also shows that the yard really did look as cramped as my plan does!

 

Lots to read and lots to pick out from the pictures. I even have named staff to pick up on!

 

But I need to keep to my self imposed rule and keep Doxey End ahead of Newcastle Emlyn as that's where I am trying out my new found modelling techniques before committing them to my NE layout! Will be hard to resist not making a start on a few small items though!

 

A very happy Neil! (only slightly less happy that I really need to get back to concentrating on my conference call!)

[MarkAustin]

So yesterday I had Cader Idris and today the postman brought me the copy of GW Railway Journal issue 37, which has forty pages on the NE branch. This is full of pictures, half of which are for NE. As I'm working (in theory) I've not had time to read, but I see all sort of new things (rabbit traffic for example!) in the text as well as train formations, especially for the early years - I now know I need some four and six wheeled coaches for example (which I did know, but didn't have the formations).

 

As for the scenic side there are great pictures of the station, goods shed, signal box, turntable, engine shed, water tower, livestock dock... and multiples of many of those. Many of those buildings I've not had anything on except some very long range aerial shots from 1937! Now I have close ups. I'm particularly pleased about the photos of the turntable as I didn't think I was going to find that anywhere as it was even hidden on my 1937 overview shot. There's even a better aerial shot, which shows the coal staithes and crane. It also shows that the yard really did look as cramped as my plan does!

 

Lots to read and lots to pick out from the pictures. I even have named staff to pick up on!

 

But I need to keep to my self imposed rule and keep Doxey End ahead of Newcastle Emlyn as that's where I am trying out my new found modelling techniques before committing them to my NE layout! Will be hard to resist not making a start on a few small items though!

 

A very happy Neil! (only slightly less happy that I really need to get back to concentrating on my conference call!)

A source I found useful, if you havn't already tried it is the National Library of Wales. They've got quite a few railway photographs, and also the Aerofilm and RAF 1940 arial survey photographs for Wales. A bit late for your period, but the basic landscape wouldn't have changed much, and I don't think the track layout changed much either.

 

Mark A

[ChrisN]

Neil,

Shire Scenes sell different coach sides for the Ratio Four Wheelers; no idea if they are right for NE but they are easier than going straight into brass kits.  I assume the six wheelers will be scratch built or kits.  (Proper coaches, full length trains in half the space!   )

[Anotheran]

A source I found useful, if you havn't already tried it is the National Library of Wales. They've got quite a few railway photographs, and also the Aerofilm and RAF 1940 arial survey photographs for Wales. A bit late for your period, but the basic landscape wouldn't have changed much, and I don't think the track layout changed much either.

 

Thanks for that Mark. I have had a look at the on-line catalogue of the NLW and have noted down a number of items that I need to have a look at. Will be a while before I can get there, but at least it's reasonable close to NE as well so I will be able to take some hillside shots over the river for the backscene.

 

as for my period... I don't really have one. A key reason for choosing NE for my layout was that the track plan was almost static from opening in 1895 to the removal of the signal box and loco shed in the 1960s. Even the station building appears to have been left in GW colours throughout. So with some removable buildings and signs and a variety of people and vehicles I intend to model pretty much the whole life of the line (as I intend to leave the demolition of the SB and loco shed until closure in 1972 to allow me to run some blue diesels). I'm even considering allowing the failed preservation group to succeed and thus keep it open to modern day with preserved locos and stock running. But that's all quite a way in the future.

 

It's actually ChrisN's work that has got me looking more closely at the first decade of the line. It looks very interesting, though will also involve quite a bit of kit and scratch building as there's not much ready to run late Victorian and Edwardian stock! I plan to continue following Chris!

 

Neil

[Anotheran]

Shire Scenes sell different coach sides for the Ratio Four Wheelers; no idea if they are right for NE but they are easier than going straight into brass kits.  I assume the six wheelers will be scratch built or kits.

 

Thank you Chris. I was looking at the Ratio four wheelers, so will take a look at the Shire Scenes sides and compare with the earliest photos. The first couple of years (1895/96) look very interesting with at least five different classes of loco hauling the four wheel stock.

 

Once we get to 1911 there's more detailed information on the stock with 1304 and 1306 (Cader Idris) hauling six wheel stock in three coach sets (composite, third class and brake). An extra third was attached on Friday, Saturday and fair days and some had a second through set (brake third, third, brake third)  added on to trains connecting with Carmarthen. But, the idea of six wheelers looks daunting, needing, as you said, to be kit or scratch. So that will definitely be something for the future! I think initially for my earliest period I'll have Cader Idris hauling four wheel Ratio stock (possibly with the Shire Scenes sides) as that will be pretty close to what would have been there around 1906.

 

Thanks again for continuing to follow, all the more amazing as I've not done any actual modelling on this layout!

[ChrisN]

Neil,

It is very kind of you to say that I have inspired you to model the early era, I am very chuffed, especially as I have not really done that much.

 

My other thread on my signature was a bit premature but it is about six wheel coaches.  I must admit that I would like to start building them but there is so much to do and as you can see I only progress very slowly at the best of times.

 

I am not sure where the actual diagrams of the Ratio coaches worked or the others that Shire Scenes have produced but I promise not to tell if they never ran on NE.

 

Have you seen Russells book on GWR coaches?  Also have you seen this site, GWR Modelling or this one on short coaches?

 

You will also need to buy a fair number of these, after all you cannot have your stock getting dirty!  (You will have to file his cap down to get the right profile though.)

 

Oh yes, there is also the Welsh Railway Circle which I have been meaning to join for months.............