drduncan Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Dear all, Does anyone have any information about GWR standard gauge 'tilt' wagons? Pictures, drawings, dimensions, running numbers and in-service dates would be very helpful. I'm looking to scratch build (or even commission a kit is there is enough detailed info on the prototype and modelling interest) for use on the MRC's new EM gauge China Clay layout 'Empire Mills.' Many thanks for any help or advice you can give, Regards drduncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 I thought Ration produced a kit of the GWR China Clay wagon? Gordon A Bristol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbr Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Try GWR Goods Wagons - Atkins, Beard & Tourret When you say 'tilt', do you mean tarpaulin covered or those that were tilted to empty through an end door? Parkside Dundas make a kit of both. Cooper Craft do tarpaulin covered wagons. The Ratio china clay wagon is BR built. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 A GWR tilt wagon were mostly broad gauge wagons although there were standard gauge versions and were open wagons with high rounded ends with a tarpaulin that covered the wagon a bit like a gypsy caravan David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drduncan Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 (edited) A GWR tilt wagon were mostly broad gauge wagons although there were standard gauge versions and were open wagons with high rounded ends with a tarpaulin that covered the wagon a bit like a gypsy caravan David These are the wagons I'm interested in. From the solitary poor photo I've seen they are iron bodieddrduncan Edited June 4, 2014 by drduncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 A GWR tilt wagon were mostly broad gauge wagons although there were standard gauge versions and were open wagons with high rounded ends with a tarpaulin that covered the wagon a bit like a gypsy caravan David These are the wagons I'm interested in. From the solutary poor photo I've seen they are iron bodied drduncan They were indeed iron bodied. Here is an example of the more well known broad gauge version made from the BGS (formerly IKB) kit. However, they would almost certainly not have been used for china clay. I've come across mention of a standard gauge version, but never seen a photo, so would be interested to know where you've seen a photo. Any idea how long they survived? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drduncan Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Nick, Off the top of my head the photo reference is one of the GW Study Groups's 'Pannier' journals. As to china clay, I was intending to load it with casks not bulk china clay. Photos of pre 1914 cask china clay traffic suggest the GWR were quite happy to use almost any 4/5 plank open wagon. Bulk or loose china clay was of course transported in end door wagons like the ex-CMR tipplers or the later O13 china clay wagons. Duncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Thanks, Duncan. I'd always assumed, on no evidence, that the cask traffic was nineteenth century thing. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Thanks, Duncan. I'd always assumed, on no evidence, that the cask traffic was nineteenth century thing. Nick My understanding is that it changed to bags during WW1 do to the demands of the war. Wood/labour being needed elsewhere... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 This one is narrow (ie standard) gauge I think – sorry about the shadow of the crane which was the subject of the original photo, I presume. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drduncan Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share Posted June 23, 2014 Excellent! Many thanks. Now, does somone out there have a drawing of this rather camera shy wagon, or the principal dimensions? drduncan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 There's a drawing of the Broad Gauge version in Alan Prior's 19th Century Railway Drawings in 4mm scale. A quick check on Richard's photo suggests this has similar dimensions. Wheelbase 9'9", length over headstocks 17'4" (these correspond with my BGS kit). Wheels 3'6". On the BG version the ends have 3 vertical T stantions, I suspect two on the NG version. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drduncan Posted June 23, 2014 Author Share Posted June 23, 2014 Thanks! D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 This one is narrow (ie standard) gauge I think – sorry about the shadow of the crane which was the subject of the original photo, I presume. This wagon really appeals to my interest in the unusual. In the photo, it looks as though the end sheet is missing, at least on the RHS,since the windows of the coach behind seem to be showing The bent rails look like most of my attempts at handrails, so I have a good chance of achieving a realistic model Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Just noticed a distant end view of a narrow gauge tilt wagon in this photo. Other aspects of the photo are currently being discussed in this topic, and I think it came up in one of Mikkel's blog entries in the last year or two. The photo appears to confirm my suggestion of two end stantions. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Just noticed a distant end view of a narrow gauge tilt wagon in this photo. Other aspects of the photo are currently being discussed in this topic, and I think it came up in one of Mikkel's blog entries in the last year or two. The photo appears to confirm my suggestion of two end stantions. Nick There is planking on the end of that wagon. It should be smooth/riveted. I think that wagon is more like one of these: Also, there is the foot or so wide bit on the side which follows the curve of the end. That isn't in this picture either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 There are some horizontal lines that suggest planking but, otherwise, the proportions are quite different from the round ended LCDR wagon, or any other round ended open that I can think of. The latter is a four planker with only two additional planks for the extra end height. In the H&P photo the rounded part of the end is higher than the wagon sides, just as on a tilt wagon. Compare with the four plankers in front of the wagon and the van alongside. As to the end bonnets, these are about 18" wide on both BG tilts and the narrow gauge example in Richard's photo above. Even so, they would not show well on a photo from this angle. There looks to be a sheet hanging over the top at this end and a pronounced shadow underneath the bonnet at the far end. Pure guesswork, but if the ends really are planked, could it be a wooden variety of tilt wagon or, perhaps a converted BG example? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOxon Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I've been looking closely at the initial photo of 29382, with a view to building a model. It's hard to extract much detail, using Photoshop, but there do appear to be only two vertical stanchions at the end. These look like angle iron or tee-section, unlike the Reading photo. It's hard to see what happens at the corners but it looks as if the end is inset slightly, relative to the sides. The sides have angle irons turned outwards, riveted along the top. There is a hint of a horizontal member (perhaps wood) across the end, just below the top of the sides, but it's not clear, or it may be that an angle iron is riveted across the end, as on the sides. There seem to be horizontal lines along the side panels - these may be an artefact of the photo but are not present in other areas - as though they are ribbed in some way. There seems to be an extra riveted plate at the lower side of the body on the LHS that is not on the RHS. It's good to see how the canvas is draped over loosely in the Reading photo, unlike the BG wagon,drawn by Alan Prior, which has quite a complex folding mechanism at the ends, with longitudinal stiffening. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) I've been looking closely at the initial photo of 29382, with a view to building a model. It's hard to extract much detail, using Photoshop, but there do appear to be only two vertical stanchions at the end. These look like angle iron or tee-section, unlike the Reading photo... Yes, I'm tempted to scratchbuild one or convert from the BGS/IKB kit. Photos of them on the BG dump at Swindon suggest T section stantions. I'm not so sure about the material in the H&P photo, the light line representing the highlighted part of the stantions is only a single pixel wide. ...It's hard to see what happens at the corners but it looks as if the end is inset slightly, relative to the sides. The sides have angle irons turned outwards, riveted along the top. There is a hint of a horizontal member (perhaps wood) across the end, just below the top of the sides, but it's not clear, or it may be that an angle iron is riveted across the end, as on the sides... Yes, the ends are inset to the depth of the end stantions. I see what you mean about the hint of a horizontal member at the end, though I'm not convinced and have not seen anything like this on the BG versions. Note the wooden piece along the top of the door. The BG versions usually have something like this along the top of the sides immediately below the angle. It may have been removed later as on the photo example. ...There seem to be horizontal lines along the side panels - these may be an artefact of the photo but are not present in other areas - as though they are ribbed in some way. There seems to be an extra riveted plate at the lower side of the body on the LHS that is not on the RHS... I think those lines are a scanning artefact. I'm not sure about the purpose of that horizontal line of rivets below the To Carry signage. ...It's good to see how the canvas is draped over loosely in the Reading photo, unlike the BG wagon,drawn by Alan Prior, which has quite a complex folding mechanism at the ends, with longitudinal stiffening. According to the BGS/IKB kit instructions, that's the "Brotherhoods patent tarpaulin rail system [which] was fitted when new [1853-4] but does not appear to have lasted long." Certainly, I've not seen one so fitted in a photo and, if the parts in the kit are anything to go by, it was a very flimsy structure. The instructions also suggest that the standard gauge ones are converted BG examples rather than original NG builds. One other interesting feature, like many BG wagons, the 3'6" wheels protrude slightly through the wooden planked floor and are covered by small splashers. Nick Edited June 30, 2014 by buffalo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I think the photo is of a broad gauge tilt wagon rather than standard gauge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I think the photo is of a broad gauge tilt wagon rather than standard gauge Which of the pictures? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 There are some horizontal lines that suggest planking but, otherwise, the proportions are quite different from the round ended LCDR wagon, or any other round ended open that I can think of. The latter is a four planker with only two additional planks for the extra end height. In the H&P photo the rounded part of the end is higher than the wagon sides, just as on a tilt wagon. Compare with the four plankers in front of the wagon and the van alongside. As to the end bonnets, these are about 18" wide on both BG tilts and the narrow gauge example in Richard's photo above. Even so, they would not show well on a photo from this angle. There looks to be a sheet hanging over the top at this end and a pronounced shadow underneath the bonnet at the far end. Pure guesswork, but if the ends really are planked, could it be a wooden variety of tilt wagon or, perhaps a converted BG example? Nick I wasn't saying that it is a picture of that exact wagon, just something similar. Wooden bodied with high round ends. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 The photo in post 10, it looks more broad gauge than standard like the coach behind Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 The photo in post 10, it looks more broad gauge than standard like the coach behind It's possible but I'm not convinced. From what we can see of the end panels, the coaches behind look to be narrow bodied. They are on a track at a higher level and, between the tilt and the open to its left, we can see what looks like a solebar and, perhaps, a lower footboard. There's no sign of a wide underframe. As discussed above, the tilt appears to have two end stantions, not the three of the typical BG version. Also the crane platform looks too narrow for BG. I'm sure Richard had good reason to suggest that it is narrow. Perhaps there are other reasons not seen in this extract from the original? I wasn't saying that it is a picture of that exact wagon, just something similar. Wooden bodied with high round ends. I did not for one moment think that you did, as I said ...the proportions are quite different from the round ended LCDR wagon, or any other round ended open that I can think of.... Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garethashenden Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) I've just come across this: http://www.3mmsociety.org.uk/Catalogue/wagon_kits_other_manufacturers.pdf On page 14 is a kit for the LCDR wagon along with a lengthy description. They are also tilt wagons and the ends look very much like the one at the factory. Edited June 30, 2014 by garethashenden Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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