Ask Dave

[definate maybe]

Hi

if anyone is interested I have found the N gauge wagons for pre order on C&M Carlisle website.

Hope this helps

Mark

Edited January 7, 2016 by definate maybe

[steam-driven boy]

Hi,

I too have pre-ordered a number of Shark, Turbot and the LSWR Road Vans with Invicta, but not the Mermaids as I'm waiting on the promised multi-packs to be listed.

I had a look at the C&M website after Mark's post yesterday in case they were listed there, but the DJ Models button doesn't take me anywhere although most other product buttons do.

 

Regards, Gerry 8)

[mokjumbo]

Now on Hatton`s site

[JeremyC]

Hi all,

 

That will be one of the retailers listed here then!

 

http://djmodels.co.uk/?page_id=16

 

Now to see if I can get a Scottish retailer to order some.

 

Thanks

Harburn Hobbies in Edinburgh are listed as dealers. Edited January 9, 2016 by JeremyC

[Purley Oaks]

Hi Dave

Have you any thoughts about crowd-funded models ? Would you consider doing it again?

Mal

[Gerald Henriksen]

Obviously not speaking for Dave, but my thoughts on observing how things have developed over the last couple of years with several crowd-funded ventures attempted.

 

I still think crowd-funded is viable going forward if the circumstances line up correctly, but I think experience has shown it is more difficult than assumed.

 

In the category of things that will make future attempts easier, once DJModels gets several products out under its own name then prospective buyers will have more confidence in what they will get if they put their money down.  Unfortunately some of the companies involved in the UK scene have had (at various times in the last 5 years) an inconsistent record in putting out a quality product and this in turn has made the consumer cautious about placing a pre-order for a regularly announced product never mind putting money into the production of a product sight unseen.

 

However, it has also become apparent that the biggest problem is getting the word out.  It has become clear that RMweb, despite its popularity, still only reaches a small percentage of the UK model railway market and generating sales from the much larger number of customers who don't follow RMweb has proven to be a significant issue/obstacle to having a successful crowd-funded model.  I don't know what the solution to this is, but until someone comes up with a more successful way of getting the word out getting a crowd-funded model to its minimum number is going to remain problematic.

[DavidH]

Advertising and networking must be at least part of the answer - a social media presence; word of mouth; stands at key exhibitions; flyers in shops; talking to and visiting clubs; articles in all the modelling press - or inserts. It isn't cheap or easy, though, but if you want to reach the widest number of people you can't be exclusive to one outlet and you must "press the flesh" at every opportunity. And IMO everything would direct the prospective customer towards your own website, which is the only place you can control "the message", rather than relying on the ups and downs of social media and forums.

 

I tried helping out with a small music festival the last couple of years, but the people running it did not want to pay for - were not interested in - any marketing other than their own Facebook page (unless I paid for it, which I declined to do). The result was sales were down, and increasingly strident "buy tickets NOW" type messages to the Facebook page followers. That put people off as well.

[DJM Dave]

Hi Dave

Have you any thoughts about crowd-funded models ? Would you consider doing it again?

Mal

Hi Purley Oaks,

 

Getting a true crowd funded model out there is, I now believe, truly difficult and possibly impossible.

The 71, survived because a threshold I set was passed allowing it to go ahead.

 

However, as we've seen, some crowdfunding models aren't really that, as its possible tooling is either subsidised or paid for completely by third parties and therefore owned by the third parties to re-release whenever they wish.

 

So it's not essentially true that those products are crowd funded when they were going to be made and paid for by the manufacturer anyway.

 

Also I think that crowd funding may have lost its position in the market place due to the amount of truly needed models that will sell I. Quantities to make crowd funding possible.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if you thought of something for crowdfunding, someone in a big comfy chair in one of the major manufacturers has thought of it too, and has probably got it under development.

 

I predict enough surprised loco and DMU duplication in the next 8 months as it is, let alone going head to head with someone or a company that has already started work on projects.

 

It's one of the reasons that I now advocate the announcement of new models every 2 years in the first 2 months of that period for all manufacturers, to give everyone a chance not to lose money on duplicate products. I'm aware that constant announcements can be very tiresome for some, and empty wallet worrying for others.

 

I think crowd funding is dead and buried unless it's 3D printed small run items, and not RTR locos or rolling stock from hardened steel tools.

 

A bit of a ramble but I hope it helps?

Cheers

Dave

[Purley Oaks]

Hi Purley Oaks,

 

Getting a true crowd funded model out there is, I now believe, truly difficult and possibly impossible.

The 71, survived because a threshold I set was passed allowing it to go ahead.

 

However, as we've seen, some crowdfunding models aren't really that, as its possible tooling is either subsidised or paid for completely by third parties and therefore owned by the third parties to re-release whenever they wish.

 

So it's not essentially true that those products are crowd funded when they were going to be made and paid for by the manufacturer anyway.

 

Also I think that crowd funding may have lost its position in the market place due to the amount of truly needed models that will sell I. Quantities to make crowd funding possible.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if you thought of something for crowdfunding, someone in a big comfy chair in one of the major manufacturers has thought of it too, and has probably got it under development.

 

I predict enough surprised loco and DMU duplication in the next 8 months as it is, let alone going head to head with someone or a company that has already started work on projects.

 

It's one of the reasons that I now advocate the announcement of new models every 2 years in the first 2 months of that period for all manufacturers, to give everyone a chance not to lose money on duplicate products. I'm aware that constant announcements can be very tiresome for some, and empty wallet worrying for others.

 

I think crowd funding is dead and buried unless it's 3D printed small run items, and not RTR locos or rolling stock from hardened steel tools.

 

A bit of a ramble but I hope it helps?

Cheers

Dave

Many thanks for the reply, Dave, very understandable and useful.

Agree with your idea for announcing new models but (and it's a big but), why would the larger manufacturers worry?

Will have to hope that Kernow commissions (from you, natch) a Bullied 4SUB and a Maunsell 4COR then!

Mal

[Gwiwer]

 

Will have to hope that Kernow commissions (from you, natch) a Bullied 4SUB and a Maunsell 4COR then!

Mal

 

I've been exploring avenues towards a commissioned 4Cor model for some time now with no real progressing made.  As Dave says crowd-funding is far from a perfect way to produce models and make money.  The owners of the preserved unit have been approached without any sense of interest by way of response.  Whether there are commercially confidential irons in the fire already which preclude me being made aware of moves afoot I am not in a position to know.

 

Response to Southern EMU types has been mixed.  The Bachmann Cep has done well though the continual re-issues might be flogging a dying horse fairly swiftly.  Ditto the MLV.  Hornby's various offerings have generally been less well received and of note the 4Vep, a type almost twice as numerous and more widespread than the 4Cep ever was, hasn't been released in as many variants of livery and number.  The Brighton Belle may have done better though could be seen as riding something of a wave (maybe a ripple?) with a hybrid and repowered version of one unit expected to be back on the tracks soon having enjoyed a high-profile campaign to get it there.

 

By contrast the SEG has persevered with minimal person-power and little in the way of high-profile publicity yet can still offer two of five cars for service on the East Kent Railway, has a third in reasonable condition though in enforced commercial storage for now and has the trailers sheeted over in open storage awaiting full restoration.  A prototypical 4Cor unit exists (though would be formed of vehicles from at least two units and potentially with the 4Res motor coach included) and could be available for scanning.  A 4Cor model might - and to my mind it's a big might - be a commercial success.  It may attract enough attention to make headway asa commission but the problem lies in funding.  

 

If it's not crowd-funded it would need to be a retailer commission.  That would entail fronting significant money against a less-than-certain bet.  I understand from many years of close involvement with the SEG and some direct hands-on involvement with 3142's preservation that there is no chance of a commission for that source.  

 

I have played with numbers on the back of an envelope and have suggested to various parties that a possible short-run might be 250 units in each of BR green syp and BR blue eye with a third livery to make up a production run of 750 units.  That is very small and the R&D costs to support that would potentially have the finished product retailing at over £350 and possibly much more.  Are there enough hopeful Cor owners willing to pay that much?

 

It's a big "if".

[Edge]

Hi Purley Oaks,

 

Getting a true crowd funded model out there is, I now believe, truly difficult and possibly impossible.

The 71, survived because a threshold I set was passed allowing it to go ahead.

 

However, as we've seen, some crowdfunding models aren't really that, as its possible tooling is either subsidised or paid for completely by third parties and therefore owned by the third parties to re-release whenever they wish.

 

So it's not essentially true that those products are crowd funded when they were going to be made and paid for by the manufacturer anyway.

 

Also I think that crowd funding may have lost its position in the market place due to the amount of truly needed models that will sell I. Quantities to make crowd funding possible.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if you thought of something for crowdfunding, someone in a big comfy chair in one of the major manufacturers has thought of it too, and has probably got it under development.

 

I predict enough surprised loco and DMU duplication in the next 8 months as it is, let alone going head to head with someone or a company that has already started work on projects.

 

It's one of the reasons that I now advocate the announcement of new models every 2 years in the first 2 months of that period for all manufacturers, to give everyone a chance not to lose money on duplicate products. I'm aware that constant announcements can be very tiresome for some, and empty wallet worrying for others.

 

I think crowd funding is dead and buried unless it's 3D printed small run items, and not RTR locos or rolling stock from hardened steel tools.

 

A bit of a ramble but I hope it helps?

Cheers

Dave

 

 

Just to add my two pennies worht into this, I had previously looked into a crowd-fuding project for two models with the kind assistance of Dave. The money involved is far too high to make any true crowdfunding project a success, and could ultimately prevent the very models you seek being taken up by manufaturers.

 

Minimum run you can talk about for any serious project is 1000 pieces, and frankly, good luck getting 1000 people to pay the full cost of a model up front before even seeing it. At the current average engine cost of about £110, you are looking at quite a considerable amount of money

[DJM Dave]

Many thanks for the reply, Dave, very understandable and useful.

Agree with your idea for announcing new models but (and it's a big but), why would the larger manufacturers worry?

Will have to hope that Kernow commissions (from you, natch) a Bullied 4SUB and a Maunsell 4COR then!

Mal

Hi mate,

 

I think with duplication across manufacturers entirely possible and probable its in everyone's best interest not to waste money, whether your Chinese owned, venture capitalist owned or uk owned.

Wasting money on duplication in a shrinking marked ( on new models, not up to date revamps of someone's old model) is fool hardy.

 

There is only so much pie to go round.

Cheers

Dafe

[Revolution Mike]

Hello folks

 

I don't have quite such a pessimistic view of crowdfunding (particularly with two such models out in the next few months) - you can see some of my thoughts on it in Feb's RM. It is just another funding mechanism to get things to market - the actual numbers (production/tooling etc) don't change. What it does require is considerable effort in communicating the project and people's trust that the end result will be worth their money.

 

Duplication is a difficult one to solve - competition is all well and good (and necessary at times) but on more "niche" items it can be disastrous for both parties. Crowdfunding actually has a small advantage here in that people have committed monies up front and in general will already be sold on a project.

 

Cheers, Mike

[phil gollin]

.

 

......................   Response to Southern EMU types has been mixed.  .....................................

.

 

The trouble is that both Hornby and Bachmann will insist on producing the less popular liveries.  There have only been limited releases of the ALL green EMUs, but there have been similar numbers of small yellow panel and blue or Southern Railway ones.  Why ?

 

Likewise limited releases of different running numbers, again WHY ?   The 2-EPB would be good with 5 or 6 different running numbers.  The 2 carriage Pull-Push set has already been released in three running numbers with a fourth due out in 2016  -  that is the way to go.

 

As for the 4-COR, anyone who can get a complete set out for £199, or less is on for a winner, particular in plain green with several running numbers.

 

-----------------------

 

All of which is moot as far as DJM is concerned, I just hope that any developments he is interested in are unique and a success.

 

.

[olivegreen]

The trouble is that both Hornby and Bachmann will insist on producing the less popular liveries.  There have only been limited releases of the ALL green EMUs, but there have been similar numbers of small yellow panel and blue or Southern Railway ones.  Why ?

 

Likewise limited releases of different running numbers, again WHY ?   The 2-EPB would be good with 5 or 6 different running numbers.  The 2 carriage Pull-Push set has already been released in three running numbers with a fourth due out in 2016  -  that is the way to go.

 

As for the 4-COR, anyone who can get a complete set out for £199, or less is on for a winner, particular in plain green with several running numbers.

 

-----------------------

 

All of which is moot as far as DJM is concerned, I just hope that any developments he is interested in are unique and a success.

 

.

The red bits:  …not really. I feel the real trouble is that each of us sees things from his or her own point of view: I would equally argue that I would only buy a 4-COR if it were released in original form, with lined SR livery with the correct jumper arrangements and so on. As for £199 or less for a 4-COR, I sympathise but think that's just cuckoo land.

 

The blue bit:  I know little about manufacturing processes and cataloguing but more running number combinations must surely lead to greater complexity and higher prices.

 

The green bit:  I heartily agree with you, Phil.

 

Mike

Edited January 14, 2016 by olivegreen

[grahame]

.

 

There have only been limited releases of the ALL green EMUs, but there have been similar numbers of small yellow panel and blue or Southern Railway ones.  Why ?

 

.

I'm pretty sure that the manufacturers at least try to tailor their livery releases to match demand and maximise sales. They'd be foolish not to. In the past there might well have been the odd humdinger but in general the releases are not that far out.

 

Besides I don't think that there is such a demand and a consequnet shortage of all green emus, what I hear is that it is more the other way in there being insufficient releases of more modern liveries.

 

G.

 

G

[Purley Oaks]

I've been exploring avenues towards a commissioned 4Cor model for some time now with no real progressing made.  As Dave says crowd-funding is far from a perfect way to produce models and make money.  The owners of the preserved unit have been approached without any sense of interest by way of response.  Whether there are commercially confidential irons in the fire already which preclude me being made aware of moves afoot I am not in a position to know.

 

Response to Southern EMU types has been mixed.  The Bachmann Cep has done well though the continual re-issues might be flogging a dying horse fairly swiftly.  Ditto the MLV.  Hornby's various offerings have generally been less well received and of note the 4Vep, a type almost twice as numerous and more widespread than the 4Cep ever was, hasn't been released in as many variants of livery and number.  The Brighton Belle may have done better though could be seen as riding something of a wave (maybe a ripple?) with a hybrid and repowered version of one unit expected to be back on the tracks soon having enjoyed a high-profile campaign to get it there.

 

By contrast the SEG has persevered with minimal person-power and little in the way of high-profile publicity yet can still offer two of five cars for service on the East Kent Railway, has a third in reasonable condition though in enforced commercial storage for now and has the trailers sheeted over in open storage awaiting full restoration.  A prototypical 4Cor unit exists (though would be formed of vehicles from at least two units and potentially with the 4Res motor coach included) and could be available for scanning.  A 4Cor model might - and to my mind it's a big might - be a commercial success.  It may attract enough attention to make headway asa commission but the problem lies in funding.  

 

If it's not crowd-funded it would need to be a retailer commission.  That would entail fronting significant money against a less-than-certain bet.  I understand from many years of close involvement with the SEG and some direct hands-on involvement with 3142's preservation that there is no chance of a commission for that source.  

 

I have played with numbers on the back of an envelope and have suggested to various parties that a possible short-run might be 250 units in each of BR green syp and BR blue eye with a third livery to make up a production run of 750 units.  That is very small and the R&D costs to support that would potentially have the finished product retailing at over £350 and possibly much more.  Are there enough hopeful Cor owners willing to pay that much?

 

It's a big "if".

Hi Rick

 

Must be quite a load of work exploring those avenues for a commissioned 4Cor, and frustrating when no real progress has been made.

 

So far as the 4Cep goes, agree that reissues would see diminishing returns but if they added a buffet to the re-runs I would think that many existing 4Cep owners would go for a 4Bep and that sales would be buoyant for the first run.

 

So far as a 4Sub goes, it's really only two mouldings, with the electrics in one motor car, for DMBTO+TT+TT+DMBTO.

 

But I've strayed off-topic.

 

Mal

[Gwiwer]

 Agree 110% about the Bep.  And also a Cep in plain blue, assuming the commission period has expired, thanks!  

[Mike Storey]

Hi Purley Oaks,

 

Getting a true crowd funded model out there is, I now believe, truly difficult and possibly impossible.

The 71, survived because a threshold I set was passed allowing it to go ahead.

 

However, as we've seen, some crowdfunding models aren't really that, as its possible tooling is either subsidised or paid for completely by third parties and therefore owned by the third parties to re-release whenever they wish.

 

So it's not essentially true that those products are crowd funded when they were going to be made and paid for by the manufacturer anyway.

 

Also I think that crowd funding may have lost its position in the market place due to the amount of truly needed models that will sell I. Quantities to make crowd funding possible.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if you thought of something for crowdfunding, someone in a big comfy chair in one of the major manufacturers has thought of it too, and has probably got it under development.

 

I predict enough surprised loco and DMU duplication in the next 8 months as it is, let alone going head to head with someone or a company that has already started work on projects.

 

It's one of the reasons that I now advocate the announcement of new models every 2 years in the first 2 months of that period for all manufacturers, to give everyone a chance not to lose money on duplicate products. I'm aware that constant announcements can be very tiresome for some, and empty wallet worrying for others.

 

I think crowd funding is dead and buried unless it's 3D printed small run items, and not RTR locos or rolling stock from hardened steel tools.

 

A bit of a ramble but I hope it helps?

Cheers

Dave

 

Is the crowdfunding for the Class 74 looking to be sufficient yet Dave? Is there any further update - the last seems to have been 5 October? Thanks

[DJM Dave]

Hi Mike,

 

I'll find out by mid week and let you know

Cheers

Dave

[Fay Sets the Pace]

Hi Dave,

 

Having brought both W24 'Calbourne' and W16 'Ventnor', can I ask if you are able to say whether Kernow will produce more Isle of Wight Adams O2s with different names/numbers in the future?

 

Also, has DJM considered making the definitive OO Gauge Terrier? The Hornby model is very long in the tooth and the coal bunker is wrong for the engines modified whilst on the Isle of Wight.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Fay Sets the Pace

[Gwiwer]

Hi Dave,

 

Having brought both 'Calbourne' and 'Ventnor', can I ask if Kernow will produce any more Isle of Wight Adams O2s with different names/numbers in the future?

 

Also, has DJM considered making the definitive OO Gauge Terrier? The Hornby model is very long in the tooth and the coal bunker is wrong for the engines modified whilst on the Isle of Wight.

 

While Dave is probably asleep back home I'll make mention of the fact that the IoW O2s are a commission and the question must be asked of Kernow MRC as the commissioning retailer, not to the manufacturer.  They're pretty good at answering questions there.

[Robert Shrives]

Dave, Sorry if missed elsewhere but any news ,good or bad on the Clayton project and the erstwhile baby deltic. Nothing on specific threads from my qustion on 15/10/15

 

cheers

Robert  

[rembrow]

Dave, Sorry if missed elsewhere but any news ,good or bad on the Clayton project and the erstwhile baby deltic. Nothing on specific threads from my qustion on 15/10/15

 

cheers

Robert  

 

Robert, the issue of the 'n' gauge 17and 23 was addressed by Dave in the DJ Models end of year report which was put on to this site a couple of weeks ago, which has its own thread, I've extracted the relevant para and copied:

 

' I also approved for tooling to commence on the N gauge Class 17, 23 and J94 (in that order) and was expecting the Class 17 EP before 2015 end (first EP).However like all factories in the lead up to Christmas, you get bumped down the list for tool room time and production too, and this has duly happened to both the Wagons and Class 17.

Once I tighten things up regarding specified production etc, then this glitch should be eliminated in future years'

 

I'm assuming that the factory delay in producing the first EP of the Class 17, will affect that sample appearing into at least Feb/March 2016.

[Robert Shrives]

Hi,

Many thanks for that, as good as it gets,

cheers

Robert