The Official Rapido APT-E Thread

[Wolf27]

I'm afraid not, it'd need some sort of certification to carry passengers and there's no way those H4X bogies would do that, they're just too weird for words!

 

The Battlefield Line guys would like to open the A and B ends for some practical use, such as buffet seating, but the VIP compartment will remain as it is, with the wildly expensive seats, and hopefully some proper carpet on the floor and walls as it was in 1974.

 

But there's a lot of work to do yet, the current west side is mostly holes, and while Shane has done a SUPERB job on the east side holes, the west side is a much larger job. 

Its been a while since the last Hastings update but there has been some progress. I spent three days working on Hastings over the last couple of weeks and have made some decent progress at last. It looks quite drastic, because, well, it is! The end result after three days is now this part of the bodyside is now structurally sound and the first steel panel fully welded in.

 

Untitled by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

Untitled by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

Untitled by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

Untitled by Shane Wilton, on Flickr

 

cheers

 

Shane

[Mr_Tilt]

You just can't slow Shane down once he's got his teeth into a job. 

 

That's an amazing job you've done there, considering that side was mostly a giant hole being held together with rust!

 

Well done indeed. 

[Mr_Tilt]

Going ever further off the APT-E thread, but still APT related. 

 

We managed to get the P-Train at Crewe tilting last week, for the first time in many years. It only tilts in one direction for some obscure reason and not all that quickly, but it does respond to the little control box I knocked together over the last few months. And it's all done with a 9V battery too. 

 

Rob Latham filmed our various attempts and the vids on Youtube here :- https://youtu.be/1_2huXEXo5s

 

You can't see me twiddling the knob of the control box as I'm way down the left hand side of the train, but you can see Brian Porter manually holding in the contactors on the right hand side, without which nothing would have happened.....

[Colin_McLeod]

Nice one Kit. The APT-P looks in better condition than the flag.

[Mr_Tilt]

I've waited decades to see this view, and to start with I thought it would be impossible as we believed that HSFV1 had been scrapped.

 

Today it's alongside its 'son', APT-E, at Shildon. 

 

[Danim]

Picture isn't showing up kit

[mikeharvey22]

Picture isn't showing up kit

Picture OK for me on laptop and tablet.

[Mr_Tilt]

Does anyone else not see it? Or does anyone actually see it, apart from me? 

[Hilux5972]

I see it, but don’t understand it. I’m guessing the wagon was used as a coupling converter so the APT-E could be towed?

[Mr_Tilt]

I see it, but don’t understand it. I’m guessing the wagon was used as a coupling converter so the APT-E could be towed?

 

Nooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!! 

 

HSFV1 is the most important railway vehicle of modern high speed railways worldwide! HSFV stands for 'High Speed Freight Vehicle' as the original intention was to find out why BR's freight wagons kept derailing. 

 

It's the vehicle that was used by Prof. Alan Wickens to investigate high speed wheel/rail interaction during the mid - late 60s, and from that work he developed the long stroke, soft suspension with high rate dampers, both vertical, lateral and yaw dampers, as well as the worn-wheel profiles, and these enabled HSFV1 to run at 100 mph on the main line and 140 mph on the RTC roller rig.

 

The APT and HST used that suspension and wheel profile data to run stably at their high speeds and BR made the information freely available to any and all railway organisations world-wide. The great majority of high speed railways all over the world used the data to develop their own particular systems from there on. 

 

HSFV1 is the 'Stepehnson's Rocket' of the modern railway age, despite its somewhat humble looks, and THAT'S why it's sitting there alongside the E-Train.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Mr_Tilt

[Hilux5972]

Ah I see. Thanks for the explanation

[PaulRhB]

Ah yes I'd heard of it but had no idea it was still around either. So if you thought it had been scrapped, where had it been hiding? Also is there a plan to at least clean it or restore it fully with some sort of display on its significance?

Edited May 3, 2018 by PaulRhB

[Wolf27]

It had been at the Electric Railway Museum in Coventry since 2010 after Paul and Kit secured it for preservation with the help of Serco. Ownership was transferred to the NRM very recently after the closure of the ERM.

 

Cheers

 

Shane

[Mr_Tilt]

Ah yes I'd heard of it but had no idea it was still around either. So if you thought it had been scrapped, where had it been hiding? Also is there a plan to at least clean it or restore it fully with some sort of display on its significance?

 

It's been at the RTC until 2010, under Serco's umbrella, and had been used for various other tasks after its original testing life was finished. That's the reason it has a socking great girder welded across its frame at the moment, which was part of an experiment to measure some track loading data. During Prof. Wickens work on it he tested over 20 different wheel profiles and suspension arrangements on the vehicle! 

 

Paul Leadley and I were looking at the RTC overhead on Google Earth back in 2009 and Paul said 'What's that?' pointing at a weird open framed wagon we could see, and I said 'Hah, it looks like HSFV1 without the loading packs, but it was scrapped years ago.' I wrote to Serco asking if it was actually HSFV1 and what they were going to do with it, and they replied that it was and that they were aware of its significance and were looking for some suitable organisation to pass it on to.

 

We contacted the NRM but the then management did not think it would be an appropriate part of the National Connection, despite our strong attempts to persuade them, so we decided to do something about it. After being rebuffed quite a few times by various preservation groups the now defunct Electric Railway Museum at Coventry gave us some space to display it, and Serco gifted it to the APT-E Support &Conservation Group in 2010 and we had it moved to the ERM.

 

We did some work on it, removing the rotten wooden deck that had been added and attempting to remove the girder, but they had some VERY good welders at Derby back then, and it's still in place! The ERM guys did attempt to run it as part of their display train along their short track there, but it derailed and i spent a busy couple of days getting it back on the track. As it doesn't have any of its ballast rail packs any more, the suspension is right on its upper limits and there's no suspension movement available which was the cause of the derailment, that and the 9" dip in the track.......

 

Over the past few years we've been busy persuading the NRM that it really IS important, and the current management agrees with us and took it under their umbrella when the ERM was forced to close.

 

There will be display boards to describe HSFV1's importance, the girder will be removed and hopefully some dummy rail packs added to show it as it was originally. I'd be in favour of leaving one side and end of the vehicle as it is and having the opposite side and end re-painted 'as new', but that's to be decided as yet.

 

This is what it used to look like in the late 70s with an APT-P Trailer Car behind it.

 

[bescotbeast]

 

It's been at the RTC until 2010, under Serco's umbrella, and had been used for various other tasks after its original testing life was finished. That's the reason it has a socking great girder welded across its frame at the moment, which was part of an experiment to measure some track loading data. During Prof. Wickens work on it he tested over 20 different wheel profiles and suspension arrangements on the vehicle! 

 

Paul Leadley and I were looking at the RTC overhead on Google Earth back in 2009 and Paul said 'What's that?' pointing at a weird open framed wagon we could see, and I said 'Hah, it looks like HSFV1 without the loading packs, but it was scrapped years ago.' I wrote to Serco asking if it was actually HSFV1 and what they were going to do with it, and they replied that it was and that they were aware of its significance and were looking for some suitable organisation to pass it on to.

 

We contacted the NRM but the then management did not think it would be an appropriate part of the National Connection, despite our strong attempts to persuade them, so we decided to do something about it. After being rebuffed quite a few times by various preservation groups the now defunct Electric Railway Museum at Coventry gave us some space to display it, and Serco gifted it to the APT-E Support &Conservation Group in 2010 and we had it moved to the ERM.

 

We did some work on it, removing the rotten wooden deck that had been added and attempting to remove the girder, but they had some VERY good welders at Derby back then, and it's still in place! The ERM guys did attempt to run it as part of their display train along their short track there, but it derailed and i spent a busy couple of days getting it back on the track. As it doesn't have any of its ballast rail packs any more, the suspension is right on its upper limits and there's no suspension movement available which was the cause of the derailment, that and the 9" dip in the track.......

 

Over the past few years we've been busy persuading the NRM that it really IS important, and the current management agrees with us and took it under their umbrella when the ERM was forced to close.

 

There will be display boards to describe HSFV1's importance, the girder will be removed and hopefully some dummy rail packs added to show it as it was originally. I'd be in favour of leaving one side and end of the vehicle as it is and having the opposite side and end re-painted 'as new', but that's to be decided as yet.

 

This is what it used to look like in the late 70s with an APT-P Trailer Car behind it.

 

 

Well done Kit on managing to save something so important to Railway history in Britain and across the world.

[Pete the Elaner]

Nice to see HSFV1 preserved.

I had heard of its significance but also that it had been scrapped.

The technicalities of Prof Wickens work really need to be understood (which I don't) for this vehicle to be fully appreciated.

Question is: should this be an item restored to its original or final form? Its development is at least as significant as the vehicle itself.

[Mr_Tilt]

Nice to see HSFV1 preserved.

I had heard of its significance but also that it had been scrapped.

The technicalities of Prof Wickens work really need to be understood (which I don't) for this vehicle to be fully appreciated.

Question is: should this be an item restored to its original or final form? Its development is at least as significant as the vehicle itself.

 

I doubt it'd even be possible to restore it to its original form as there were so many variations. In theory the NRM would have the drawings of all the versions as my late wife ensured all the old APD paperwork and drawings were sent to York, but it would take years of detective work to find them amongst the mountain of stuff that the NRM hold.

 

As it stands, the current suspension system is the one that did the 140 mph runs on the roller rig, which would be the most significant I'd venture to suggest. 

[John ks]

Since were talking about HSFV1

 

I got this on the last day at the ERM

 

 

 

John

 

[Titan]

 

It's been at the RTC until 2010, under Serco's umbrella, and had been used for various other tasks after its original testing life was finished. That's the reason it has a socking great girder welded across its frame at the moment, which was part of an experiment to measure some track loading data. During Prof. Wickens work on it he tested over 20 different wheel profiles and suspension arrangements on the vehicle! 

 

Paul Leadley and I were looking at the RTC overhead on Google Earth back in 2009 and Paul said 'What's that?' pointing at a weird open framed wagon we could see, and I said 'Hah, it looks like HSFV1 without the loading packs, but it was scrapped years ago.' I wrote to Serco asking if it was actually HSFV1 and what they were going to do with it, and they replied that it was and that they were aware of its significance and were looking for some suitable organisation to pass it on to.

 

We contacted the NRM but the then management did not think it would be an appropriate part of the National Connection, despite our strong attempts to persuade them, so we decided to do something about it. After being rebuffed quite a few times by various preservation groups the now defunct Electric Railway Museum at Coventry gave us some space to display it, and Serco gifted it to the APT-E Support &Conservation Group in 2010 and we had it moved to the ERM.

 

We did some work on it, removing the rotten wooden deck that had been added and attempting to remove the girder, but they had some VERY good welders at Derby back then, and it's still in place! The ERM guys did attempt to run it as part of their display train along their short track there, but it derailed and i spent a busy couple of days getting it back on the track. As it doesn't have any of its ballast rail packs any more, the suspension is right on its upper limits and there's no suspension movement available which was the cause of the derailment, that and the 9" dip in the track.......

 

Over the past few years we've been busy persuading the NRM that it really IS important, and the current management agrees with us and took it under their umbrella when the ERM was forced to close.

 

There will be display boards to describe HSFV1's importance, the girder will be removed and hopefully some dummy rail packs added to show it as it was originally. I'd be in favour of leaving one side and end of the vehicle as it is and having the opposite side and end re-painted 'as new', but that's to be decided as yet.

 

This is what it used to look like in the late 70s with an APT-P Trailer Car behind it.

 

 

 

The adding of the girder must have been fairly recent, it still had the rail packs on it in the 1990's when I was a trainee at Derby. I recognised it as an interesting vehicle, but not knowing any better thought it was more to do with Pacer development rather than the APT!

[Colin_McLeod]

.... but not knowing any better thought it was more to do with Pacer development rather than the APT!

Mmmmm. Not quite LOL. However as a trainee at the time I'm sure Mr Tilt will forgive you!

[Mr_Tilt]

Mmmmm. Not quite LOL. However as a trainee at the time I'm sure Mr Tilt will forgive you! :)

 

Actually Titan's close to correct.

 

The Pacer/Skipper railcars relied heavily on the dynamics of HSFV1's chassis design, suspension and wheel profiles and had almost the same wheelbase, but they had no secondary suspension at all, relying on the twin vertical primary coil springs for passenger 'comfort'. (Can you use the words 'comfort' and 'Pacer' in the same sentence??)

 

Having ridden on a few of the various Pacer classes myself I can' help but feel that BR didn't get the spring rate, damper settings or wheel profiles correct for passenger use. The wheelsets didn't really self-steer as they should have done if they'd have followed Prof. Wickens' precepts, and passenger loads aren't as heavy as freight is and need softer springs for proper comfort levels.

[NicTheBeard]

I've waited decades to see this view, and to start with I thought it would be impossible as we believed that HSFV1 had been scrapped.

 

Today it's alongside its 'son', APT-E, at Shildon. 

 

 

We were delighted to see it on Friday. Also very pleased to discover that they are planning to move everything out later in the year and re-arrange the displays in a more sensible layout. Hopefully that means that APT-E can be put in the right order! We also noticed that each end only has one windscreen wiper - has the second one on PC1 been missing for a long time, or is that recent?

[Danim]

Does anyone else not see it? Or does anyone actually see it, apart from me?

Showing up now

[Mr_Tilt]

We were delighted to see it on Friday. Also very pleased to discover that they are planning to move everything out later in the year and re-arrange the displays in a more sensible layout. Hopefully that means that APT-E can be put in the right order! We also noticed that each end only has one windscreen wiper - has the second one on PC1 been missing for a long time, or is that recent?

 

Hmm, it'd have been nice if they'd have told those of us in the Support Group about the planned moves........

 

There'd have to be a LOT of preparatory work before any moving around of the E-Train vehicles occurs. One of the handling dollies, which are essential for such work, needs to be repaired first, and that's not an easy job. Above all they'll need to communicate more, which currently doesn't seem to be happening......

 

As for PC1's second wiper blade, it's been missing for decades as it was 'deleted' by a bird strike during the train's last runs at Old Dalby. As that was only weeks before we took the train to York there wasn't much point in replacing it. In the very long term we may sort that, but the other wiper on PC1 is badly bent too, by the hand of vandals I think.

[Colin_McLeod]

Better make sure all cables are disconnected this time!