JSpencer Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Finally managed to power up the full set on my new layout. Seen here passing it's birthplace, although slightly out of period...... test2e.jpg I was at a loss for a suitable DCC address that fitted in with my other stuff until I realised that there was number available as a tribute to it's past life - 152. Cheers, Mick Good show. I have been wondering what to renumber mine as. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Finally managed to power up the full set on my new layout. Seen here passing it's birthplace, although slightly out of period...... test2e.jpg I was at a loss for a suitable DCC address that fitted in with my other stuff until I realised that there was number available as a tribute to it's past life - 152. Cheers, Mick VERY appropriate Mick. Looks good there trundling past the EDU, en route back from Old Dalby maybe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Mr Tilt, I know this has probably been asked somewhere in the past 156 pages, somewhere... It is well known that APT-E was never destined to be converted to commercial use after testing, but when testing first started was it planned to build commercial versions to generally the same design when it proved successful, and the HST and APT-P 'got in the way' or was it always destined to be a one off design after certain components (tilt etc) had been tested? Apologies if I am asking a duplicate question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) Actually I don't think it has been asked before. When the project was first started in the late 60s the E-Train design was going to be extended and modified somewhat to suit normal passenger use. Later, as the project got to the hardware stage, it was realised that some things would not work as planned and some changes would have to me made. The Joint Module idea would never have worked in the real world for a start, and the strengthening that had to be added to the vehicle ends early on made that idea a TOTAL non starter. The thing that really killed the original idea was the 1973 fuel crisis, which raised the price of fuel by 400% almost overnight and that scotched the gas turbine version straight away. Originally production APTs would have been built in both 25Kv and gas turbine versions, but afterwards it was 25Kv all the way. That in itself determined the weird 'locos in the middle' configuration for the P-Trains, and so it went on. We installed the tilt packs above the floor on E-Train, and you can see them in TC1 & 2 in the model, that's the big silver box sticking up next to my seat in TC2 and just beyond the central bulkhead from the seating area in TC1. That obviously wouldn't have worked in passenger service, but that was deliberate for E-Train as we realised that work would need to be done on the packs while the train was running its tests, and they surely were! The production packs were always going to be fitted underfloor, and there was a space marked out under TC2's floor for one to be fitted later, but we never did that and the Mk 5 tilt packs were tested on the skinned POP-Train and on Lab 8 'Pilot' instead. I hope that answers your question alright, but if not please ask more. Edited August 31, 2016 by Mr_Tilt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Thanks Mr Tilt That makes more sense now, thank you. If I can expand on that question and ask how much there really was in common between the E and P? Did you not write that the tilt mechanism worked completely different? (or was that your comparison to the modern stuff that virgin operates?) I will be passing by Locomotion in a few weeks and have planned to stop in and see it. Although if Mr Courier delivers my track components any time soon I might well have the model out to look at instead. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 E-Train and P-Train were RADICALLY different to each other, although the general principles still remained. These were Prof. Alan Wickens' ground breaking wheel profiles and suspension parameters, the articulation, light weight and high power, multi-mode powerful brakes, air spring secondary suspension and of course the tilt system. The geometry of the P-Train tilt system was different in that the tilt jacks were mounted horizontally and moved the bolster laterally, whereas on E-Train the tilt jacks were mounted vertically and acted above the bolster. The P-Train's bolster was connected by swing links that enabled the body to 'pendulum' back so that the floor was level with the track if the hydraulics failed or were switched off. On E-Train it just fell over under those circumstances, and it did, quite often............. While Virgin's Pendelinos have totally different tilt systems, they're electrically powered rather than hydraulic and the control systems are nothing like the same as P-Train's, the same company's Super Voyagers use almost the same tilt system as P-Train did. This was because of the mind bogglingly complex sequence of sell-offs, mergers and break-ups that happened after Maggie Thatcher sold off BR, with the result that the P-Train tilt technology ended up with Bombardier, and under the Super Voyagers. Their tilt control system is a half way house between the reactive P-Train system and the predictive Pendelino system. Next? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 I was just commenting on the other APT discussion that to go from steam to APT in such a short time is a leap forward that we will likely never see again. If rail technology had carried on at that pace then lord knows what we would be travelling on now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted August 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 31, 2016 Where is this other APT-E thread please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Finally managed to power up the full set on my new layout. Seen here passing it's birthplace, although slightly out of period...... test2e.jpg I was at a loss for a suitable DCC address that fitted in with my other stuff until I realised that there was number available as a tribute to it's past life - 152. Cheers, Mick What does 152 mean then? I assigned mine the numbers 2783 APTE as assigned on the phone key pad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) Hello Colin it was a brief discussion on another thread- Deadman's Lane. Where is this other APT-E thread please? EDIT: Here it is. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/80418-deadmans-lane-first-show-approaching-fast/page-17 Mr NewBryford has built part of Derby and positioned the APT alongside all his yellow trains. A good thread if you haven't seen it already. Edited August 31, 2016 by Derekstuart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 What does 152 mean then? I assigned mine the numbers 2783 APTE as assigned on the phone key pad. That really, really, really should not need explaining..... It is the record breaking maximum speed that APT-E achieved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 If it isn't your bag it would need explaining hence the question. Thanks for the information much obliged. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 The '152' is mentioned more than once in the big book that came with the model. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 (edited) Reading it means opening it. Opening it means creasing the spine. Creasing the spine is an act of vandalism. Plus the big problem with reading the book is that the book is inside the box and the box is hand crafted out of solid extruded cardboard to be such a good fit that it takes a platoon of helpers with 3 hands each just to get the lid clear from the box. Be glad that when you finished testing the real thing that you parked it in a siding and didn't have to pack it away in huge great boxes. I bet it takes longer to get the APT model in and out of the box than to start and stop the real thing. The '152' is mentioned more than once in the big book that came with the model. Edited September 1, 2016 by Derekstuart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willjmitchell Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Mr Tilt, please can you provide a little more info on why the joint module idea was a total non-starter? It seems like such an efficient design I always wondered why it didn't catch on. I keep expecting to see it on a modern train one of these days.. Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UP 4000 Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Reading it means opening it. Opening it means creasing the spine. Creasing the spine is an act of vandalism. Plus the big problem with reading the book is that the book is inside the box and the box is hand crafted out of solid extruded cardboard to be such a good fit that it takes a platoon of helpers with 3 hands each just to get the lid clear from the box. Be glad that when you finished testing the real thing that you parked it in a siding and didn't have to pack it away in huge great boxes. I bet it takes longer to get the APT model in and out of the box than to start and stop the real thing. Vacuum packed ensuring each model arrives at peak perfection, hahaha 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Reading it means opening it. Opening it means creasing the spine. Creasing the spine is an act of vandalism. Plus the big problem with reading the book is that the book is inside the box and the box is hand crafted out of solid extruded cardboard to be such a good fit that it takes a platoon of helpers with 3 hands each just to get the lid clear from the box. Be glad that when you finished testing the real thing that you parked it in a siding and didn't have to pack it away in huge great boxes. I bet it takes longer to get the APT model in and out of the box than to start and stop the real thing. Hehehehe, nice one! Actually it would have been better if the NRM HAD packed it away in some giant boxes in 1976. If they had we wouldn't have had such a horrendous job in restoring it to its present condition. Mind you, we'd have need a MASSIVE crane to get back out of the boxes in 2000!!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Mr Tilt, please can you provide a little more info on why the joint module idea was a total non-starter? It seems like such an efficient design I always wondered why it didn't catch on. I keep expecting to see it on a modern train one of these days.. Cheers! It would have been OK on normal straight, or slightly curved track, but at large yaw and tilt angles the floor of the Joint Module took up the most outrageous shapes due to the fact that it had to be flexible. On E-Train it's made of a series of 3" x 2" RHS box sections threaded onto a long length of rod stretching from one side to the other and the shapes that it produced getting out of the RTC Yard would boggle the mind! With a floor like that, not to mention the business of having to step across two joints, one each side of the Module, we reckoned that Joe and Jane Passenger would have a tough time managing it, especially while carrying luggage etc. and disabled passengers may not have managed it at all. Around the mid-70s accommodating disabled passengers was just becoming a 'big thing', thus the wider doors on the P-Train. There's undoubtedly a good case to be made for such a configuration from the point of view of optimising the structure of the adjoining vehicles, the Trailer Cars could be much lighter for the same length, but the passenger handling issues rather outweighed that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Passengers have problems sometimes on articulated buses when the floor (turntable) starts to turn abruptly. I suppose if it was turning vertically as well as horizontally it would be "challenging" for them, so I can understand what you mean. And that is just at 30-40mph. Not sure passengers would cope with a bendy bus at 152MPH. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 (edited) Reading it means opening it. Opening it means creasing the spine. Creasing the spine is an act of vandalism. Plus the big problem with reading the book is that the book is inside the box and the box is hand crafted out of solid extruded cardboard to be such a good fit that it takes a platoon of helpers with 3 hands each just to get the lid clear from the box. Be glad that when you finished testing the real thing that you parked it in a siding and didn't have to pack it away in huge great boxes. I bet it takes longer to get the APT model in and out of the box than to start and stop the real thing. The good news is that the book is available separately. It is a very nice interesting read and recommended so to avoid vandalizing the original (and risk wrecking the box too!!), you can buy an additional copy. This you then carry every where just in case you bump into Mr Tilt et al, so they can sign it too ;-)) Under the same paranoia, I never did watch the Video which came with Bachmann's Elizabethan set 2+ decades ago for fear of spoiling it. The problem is, video players are somewhat hard to find now! Edited September 1, 2016 by JSpencer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Is the model available separately too? In fact, a model and a book without the box would be about right. The good news is that the book is available separately. It is a very nice interesting read and recommended so to avoid vandalizing the original (and risk wrecking the box too!!), you can buy an additional copy. This you then carry every where just in case you bump into Mr Tilt et al, so they can sign it too ;-)) Under the same paranoia, I never did watch the Video which came with Bachmann's Elizabethan set 2+ decades ago for fear of spoiling it. The problem is, video players are somewhat hard to find now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Tilt Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Is the model available separately too? In fact, a model and a book without the box would be about right. I have no doubt that one of the sellers on ebay would supply it without a box....... At an extra charge of course................ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PaulCheffus Posted September 1, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 1, 2016 The good news is that the book is available separately. It is a very nice interesting read and recommended so to avoid vandalizing the original (and risk wrecking the box too!!), you can buy an additional copy. This you then carry every where just in case you bump into Mr Tilt et al, so they can sign it too ;-)) Under the same paranoia, I never did watch the Video which came with Bachmann's Elizabethan set 2+ decades ago for fear of spoiling it. The problem is, video players are somewhat hard to find now! Hi How do you order the book? Being an ngauge modeller the model is no good to me but I would be interested to read the book. Cheers Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Locomotion have them I believe. 'phone the gift shop on 01388 771439 HiHow do you order the book? Being an ngauge modeller the model is no good to me but I would be interested to read the book.CheersPaul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Locomotion have them I believe. 'phone the gift shop on 01388 771439 Locomotion have them I believe. 'phone the gift shop on 01388 771439 Agree Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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