Sheffield Exchange, Toy trains, music and fun!

[5BarVT]

15 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Over to the signal experts chancers.

I think that the White with C or S on the Midland/LMS is the equivalent of the G*R stencil showing red white red at 45 degrees (lower quad) with C or S in the corner.  Used with a main signal, i.e. the equivalent of a main semaphore arm with a lower calling on or shunt arm.  For the equivalent of a shunt disc I think they (like G*R) used red/green but with smaller lenses, which is what would have been provided from the shed/depot lines.

 

Info for LMS 1929 re-signalling of Manchester Exchange/Victoria can be found by searching for Deal Street Signalling and following the evking.se link.

 

Paul.

 

[5BarVT]

6 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

You do know that Peco actually make catch points SL84 (RH) and SL85 (LH).

But Clive wants better looking ones.

:-)

Paul.

[Gibbo675]

1 minute ago, 5BarVT said:

But Clive wants better looking ones.

:-)

Paul.

Well that's me told !!!!

[Clive Mortimore]

6 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Clive,

 

You do know that Peco actually make catch points SL84 (RH) and SL85 (LH).

 

Gibbo.

 

Hi Gibbo

 

They are catch points not trap points.

 

Catch points are usually only one blade and are found at the bottom of an incline to derail any wagons that run backwards in case of a coupling breaking. They are sprung so a wheel set going the right way can pass over them and they then return to catch anything going the wrong way.

 

A trap point is to derail something that is trying to get on to the running line from a loop or siding when it is not supposed to. They are mechanically or electrically worked with the point giving access or egress to the main line. At some locations it is a complete point with a buffer stop or sand drag . I don't have the space for either, so I am using the other variety which is a complete set of point blades but no crossing vee, hopefully the offending loco, wagon, coach etc will be going slow enough that when it falls off the rails and hits the dirt it will stop going any further.

[Clive Mortimore]

11 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

I think that the White with C or S on the Midland/LMS is the equivalent of the G*R stencil showing red white red at 45 degrees (lower quad) with C or S in the corner.  Used with a main signal, i.e. the equivalent of a main semaphore arm with a lower calling on or shunt arm.  For the equivalent of a shunt disc I think they (like G*R) used red/green but with smaller lenses, which is what would have been provided from the shed/depot lines.

 

Info for LMS 1929 re-signalling of Manchester Exchange/Victoria can be found by searching for Deal Street Signalling and following the evking.se link.

 

Paul.

 

Hi Paul

 

Thanks. I did consider making small aspect signals as used at Manchester Exchange/Victoria, and other locations but the amount I need to do, 22, put me off so I decided to take the easier option, which I hope will look convincing. Most early colour light schemes had their own little variations.  

[5BarVT]

I'm just trimming the backboard off full size ones and mounting them on the ground.  If it looks like a shunt signal and operates like a shunt signal then it is a shunt signal!!!

Paul.

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

I'd always assumed that as the sidings for the diesel and steam servicing points involved a kick back that they would work as the trap points from each depots headshunt access from the mainline. 'Simple' interlock from the signal box meaning the points to the last siding before the headshunt routes back onto the mainline could only be set 'straight' if the points to the yard from the mainline were set correctly.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Shunt ahead and calling-on signals in colour light areas are a minefield of variations. Until the British Railways Standard Signalling Principle issued c1962 every company / region went its own way and they weren't even consistent between contracts then.

I think what you are referring to may have been the banner signals with a C, W or S on the front used by the LNER

As far as I am aware, the three light  ground signal was actually first used in 1928 by Westinghouse on a job in Cape Town. They spread here in the 1930s, the LNER used them at Leeds c1937 but the Inspecting Officer was far from convinced by them and they received temporary approval for use for two years. The ones at Leeds had the later standard of a red and two whites at trap points and derailers but three white lights at other places. 

Manchester Victoria had miniature colour lights showing two or three aspects for siding signals. Calling on signals associated with main aspects had a miniature marker light and showed a miniature yellow or green for proceed.

The Cheshire lines at Manchester Central (1935) used a miniature aspect with an S indication for shunt signals. This was also used by the GWR at the same time, Bristol IIRC, consisting of a miniature green with C, W or S indication.

 

The list goes on and on but it's getting a bit late now.

 

Eric

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

I'd always assumed that as the sidings for the diesel and steam servicing points involved a kick back that they would work as the trap points from each depots headshunt access from the mainline.

Without seeing the full layout I'm not sure if the trap is necessary. If the point in the siding could be used the signalling could be arranged such that the routes up and down the neck could be Off at the same time, only being replaced when the signalman wanted to set the route in or out to the main line.

[5BarVT]

Hi Clive,

Look what happens when you open the signalling box!

Liverpool Exchange had shunt aspects specifically for ‘shunt out to come back’ although it was a two white lights job. 
Paul.

[Clive Mortimore]

 

On 02/08/2021 at 00:24, TheSignalEngineer said:

Without seeing the full layout I'm not sure if the trap is necessary. If the point in the siding could be used the signalling could be arranged such that the routes up and down the neck could be Off at the same time, only being replaced when the signalman wanted to set the route in or out to the main line.

Hi Eric

 

I will admit to getting a bit confused from what I am being told by various ex-railwaymen.

Here is the signaling plan as it stands at the moment, I know the numbers do not relate to leavers but for my counting the red ones are points, green mainline signals and purple for shunt signals (there is no number 6).

 

Here is the revised idea with the trap points. And the update on the diesel yard.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Clive Mortimore

[Joseph_Pestell]

Those colours sound a bit weird. Even a bit French with purple for goods roads.

 

I don't think the convention changed when semaphores were chenged for colour-light. Black levers for turnouts, red for home (stop) signals, yellow for distant signals, blue for FPLs, white for out-of-use.

[Satan's Goldfish]

17 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Eric

 

I will admit to getting a bit confused from what I am being told by various ex-railwaymen.

Here is the signaling plan as it stands at the moment, I know the numbers do not relate to leavers but for my counting the red ones are points, green mainline signals and purple for shunt signals (there is no number 6).

 

Here is the revised idea with the trap points. And the update on the diesel yard.

 

See, that's where i look at that and wonder why the Steam shed and the Diesel Depot have trap points, as by design they're both self-trapping by not setting the point closest to the running lines in that direction.

 

(Although i see the centre road between P3 an P4 has gained a trap, can remember discussing that, did you ever manage to make it operational?)

[Clive Mortimore]

40 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Those colours sound a bit weird. Even a bit French with purple for goods roads.

 

I don't think the convention changed when semaphores were chenged for colour-light. Black levers for turnouts, red for home (stop) signals, yellow for distant signals, blue for FPLs, white for out-of-use.

Hi Joseph

 

They are for my counting purposes and do not relate to a lever frame.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

34 minutes ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

See, that's where i look at that and wonder why the Steam shed and the Diesel Depot have trap points, as by design they're both self-trapping by not setting the point closest to the running lines in that direction.

 

(Although i see the centre road between P3 an P4 has gained a trap, can remember discussing that, did you ever manage to make it operational?)

Watch yer Map

 

That's what I thought, until I was told the signals are in the wrong place and they should have a yellow shunt signal as well which allows movement on to the stabling point. It all started to get confusing when others said I should have trap points.

 

With the trap points I can move the signals closer to the mainline to keep things simpler for me.

[Clive Mortimore]

Back to the shunt/calling on signals, this is what I possibly should have at the end of each platform. Each one would have to be built, using n gauge signals and Ekcon ones. No way can I get 16 wires down a Ekcon tubular post. 9 wires if I can link the common returns. I will also have to work out how to wire them so by accident I cannot display two green aspects.

This what I propose doing. I know 12 wires is very tight but only two heads means I can link the common returns on each head and reduce the wires to 8.  This reduces the wiring at the switching end as it can be set up so the shunt/calling on signal can only be turned on if the main signal is at danger.

 

My concept predates the Leeds signaling.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Clive Mortimore

[St Enodoc]

8 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Back to the shunt/calling on signals, this is what I possibly should have at the end of each platform. Each one would have to be built, using n gauge signals and Ekcon ones. No way can I get 16 wires down a Ekcon tubular post. 9 wires if I can link the common returns. I will also have to work out how to wire them so by accident I cannot display two green aspects.

This what I propose doing. I know 12 wires is very tight but only two heads means I can link the common returns on each head and reduce the wires to 8.  This reduces the wiring at the switching end as it can be set up so the shunt/calling on signal can only be turned on if the main signal is at danger.

 

My concept predates the Leeds signaling.

In your second sketch, I think you only need 7 wires. If you have a metal post you can use that as a common return and only have 6 wires.

 

If you use DPDT switches you can make sure that only the correct aspects are lit.

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

I will admit to getting a bit confused from what I am being told by various ex-railwaymen.

Collective noun for signal engineers: an opinion of signal engineers!  6 engineers, minimum of 7 opinions.

Add on that you’re talking historical not current so it’s dependent on people like me trying to interpret what they have seen on diagrams.

Are you still surprised? !!

I’ll just add that I had looked at the Deal St / Victoria West diagrams before but it was only this morning that I read the words and realised how their R/Y/G shunt signals worked.  Actually ideal for your depot/shed!

 

I assume that you’re looking for a could have been design rather than a must have been like that (or even a can’t prove it wasn’t!!).

 

LMS 3 aspect shunts were the equivalent of their yellow disc but with an added red.  G for out onto the main line, Y for shunting in the depot, R for stop when the signalman wanted to change the points.  Technically a better solution than we have today.  If you could get an Eckon N gauge 3 aspect head you’ve nailed it.  Then you wouldn’t need separate traps and could leave the track as it is.

For coming back into the station, a 2 aspect N gauge head for the R/G shunts.

 

For your platform starters, is the S to the same destination as the main aspect or wrong road behind the home signal?

 

Paul.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Watch yer Map

 

That's what I thought, until I was told the signals are in the wrong place and they should have a yellow shunt signal as well which allows movement on to the stabling point. It all started to get confusing when others said I should have trap points.

 

With the trap points I can move the signals closer to the mainline to keep things simpler for me.

Technically there is no need at all for additional trap points as the existing depot track layouts are self trapping.   Ignoring for one moment the ideal situation of a 3 aspect ground signal suggested by Paul what it all comes down to is what the relevant Rules and Local Instructions say it what otherwise amounts to a yellow ground disc/position light equivalent signal.

 

Think of it this way - the lines inside the depot area, including its end of the running line connection belong (i.e. are under the control of) whoever is in charge in the depot area - could be a Shunter, might be the Duty Depot Ferry Driver, might even be the Depot Foreman.  Thus before changing those points to allow a move towards the depot the Signalman has to get permission to do so from the person in charge.  In order to get the road fora move out of the depot the 'Pi/c', or whoever, asks the Signalman to set the road for them and tells him what the move is for and where it is going.  Even if there is a separate trap the Signalman still needs to ask permission fora move into the depot area because it is not under his control but the 'Instruction' can also make provid sion for a series of untits or engines going light to shed at the end of the day - that happenred in some places.

 

The three aspect signal makes it a bit safer but the obvious thing then is that signal also needs to be in place for a move which will trail through the points inside the depot area because a requirement to seek authority might not be present.  

 

Simple answer - you 'write' your own Instruction to cover the situation.  Expensive solution - you provide separate trap points assuming there is necessary run off clearance to do so;  Slightly less expensive solution - you also provide a signal at the trailing end of the existing points BUT that sytill doesn't remove the need for the Sgnalman to taklk to the person i'c the depot area.

 

The choice, and associated cost, is yours.  

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

If you want an early LMS colour light scheme you could do far worse than use Manchester Victoria as you prototype. The loco sidings at Irwell Bridge have the answers for what you need. This page gives the details of the job,

https://www.ekeving.se/ext/uk/VicEx_Manchester/index.html

and if you look at the layout for the Exchange area (link at bottom of page) you will find Irwell Bridge between Deal Street and Victoia West boxes.

[Clive Mortimore]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Technically there is no need at all for additional trap points as the existing depot track layouts are self trapping.   Ignoring for one moment the ideal situation of a 3 aspect ground signal suggested by Paul what it all comes down to is what the relevant Rules and Local Instructions say it what otherwise amounts to a yellow ground disc/position light equivalent signal.

 

Think of it this way - the lines inside the depot area, including its end of the running line connection belong (i.e. are under the control of) whoever is in charge in the depot area - could be a Shunter, might be the Duty Depot Ferry Driver, might even be the Depot Foreman.  Thus before changing those points to allow a move towards the depot the Signalman has to get permission to do so from the person in charge.  In order to get the road fora move out of the depot the 'Pi/c', or whoever, asks the Signalman to set the road for them and tells him what the move is for and where it is going.  Even if there is a separate trap the Signalman still needs to ask permission fora move into the depot area because it is not under his control but the 'Instruction' can also make provid sion for a series of untits or engines going light to shed at the end of the day - that happenred in some places.

 

The three aspect signal makes it a bit safer but the obvious thing then is that signal also needs to be in place for a move which will trail through the points inside the depot area because a requirement to seek authority might not be present.  

 

Simple answer - you 'write' your own Instruction to cover the situation.  Expensive solution - you provide separate trap points assuming there is necessary run off clearance to do so;  Slightly less expensive solution - you also provide a signal at the trailing end of the existing points BUT that sytill doesn't remove the need for the Sgnalman to taklk to the person i'c the depot area.

 

The choice, and associated cost, is yours.  

 

 

HI Mike

 

I am going to install the trap points as I have already spent my money. Having them will not be wrong, neither would not having them. I will be making some telephone cabinets so the fireman can jump down and call the bobby. 

 

I am also going to try and make the Manchester Exchange/Vitoria type signals, 20 signal heads, LEDs, resistors and wire for £15 from China.

[Clive Mortimore]

5 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Collective noun for signal engineers: an opinion of signal engineers!  6 engineers, minimum of 7 opinions.

Add on that you’re talking historical not current so it’s dependent on people like me trying to interpret what they have seen on diagrams.

Are you still surprised? !!

I’ll just add that I had looked at the Deal St / Victoria West diagrams before but it was only this morning that I read the words and realised how their R/Y/G shunt signals worked.  Actually ideal for your depot/shed!

 

I assume that you’re looking for a could have been design rather than a must have been like that (or even a can’t prove it wasn’t!!).

 

LMS 3 aspect shunts were the equivalent of their yellow disc but with an added red.  G for out onto the main line, Y for shunting in the depot, R for stop when the signalman wanted to change the points.  Technically a better solution than we have today.  If you could get an Eckon N gauge 3 aspect head you’ve nailed it.  Then you wouldn’t need separate traps and could leave the track as it is.

For coming back into the station, a 2 aspect N gauge head for the R/G shunts.

 

For your platform starters, is the S to the same destination as the main aspect or wrong road behind the home signal?

 

Paul.

Hi Paul

 

The S is for shunt. Would the signal display S (shunt) or C (calling on) for loco moves from the platform to inner starter before reversing into a loco yard?

 

As I have stated in my last post I am going to have ago at making the Manchester type signals, where the little green will tell the driver he can move off. If that doesn't work then plan B will be throw everything up in the air and take up knitting.

[The Stationmaster]

16 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Paul

 

The S is for shunt. Would the signal display S (shunt) or C (calling on) for loco moves from the platform to inner starter before reversing into a loco yard?

 

As I have stated in my last post I am going to have ago at making the Manchester type signals, where the little green will tell the driver he can move off. If that doesn't work then plan B will be throw everything up in the air and take up knitting.

Actually I can't see any need for it to show either if it is entering an empty signal section.    If it is entering a signal section where something is already standng it then depends on whose particular idea you are adopting from the 1930s (or whatever you are devising as your own standard) but a miniature green on its own with no letter does seem to have been quite acceptable for shunting moves.  You'd probably only use the 'C' when entering an occupied platform.

[Sandhole]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

HI Mike

 

I am going to install the trap points as I have already spent my money. Having them will not be wrong, neither would not having them. I will be making some telephone cabinets so the fireman can jump down and call the bobby. 

 

I am also going to try and make the Manchester Exchange/Vitoria type signals, 20 signal heads, LEDs, resistors and wire for £15 from China.

Speaking as a modeller of that part of Manchester, allbeit ficticious, I am going to follow your signal building exploits with interest, Clive.
Regards,
Chris.

[TheSignalEngineer]

8 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

Collective noun for signal engineers: an opinion of signal engineers!  6 engineers, minimum of 7 opinions

Only 7. On most project development I could generate that many different ways of doing it on my own.