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Clive Mortimore

Sheffield Exchange, Toy trains, music and fun!

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Stationmaster Mike has helped me with the signalling and the point rodding so give him a break I am throwing this one out into the open. Ok all you signalling experts out there, where would the cabinets for the track curcuits go?

 

attachicon.gifsheffield exchange track circuits wip.png

 

Stationmaster Mike has helped me with the signalling and the point rodding so give him a break I am throwing this one out into the open. Ok all you signalling experts out there, where would the cabinets for the track curcuits go?

 

attachicon.gifsheffield exchange track circuits wip.png

 

Where required is the simple answer - there are no overarching requirements as far as I am aware - each scheme designer will put them where needed although minimising the overall number of cases will be important. The thing is a typical two door cabinet can hold quite a lot of relays - even track circuit ones which tend to be the largest one, so up to 8 in one case  is quite doable. Alternatively it might be that all relays are placed under the signal box - or a wooden cupboard fixed to the outside. Finally, depending on the era and company, there is allways the option of small metal boxes holding a single relay mounted on a horizontal rail as seen in the first photo on this page http://www.semgonline.com/location/wlo01.html

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With the layout is set around the early 1960s in mechanical territory most of the cupboards would still be of wood as it assumes an L&Y box with renewals by the LMS. In such areas the standard LMS cupboards were used right up to closure, the coming of Multiple Aspect Signalling or renewals during the 1970s. I remember putting in LMS style cupboards on  MAS stageworks in 1969. 

 

Because most places like this were still powered by batteries there wasn't much option for boosting the voltage so lead lengths on track circuits would necessarily have been kept short. Track circuits were powered by a pair of AD608 Air Depolarised primary cells in parallel. These were about 4" square and 8" high IIRC. Track Relays were all shelf type and the repeat relay circuits to the box were powered by batteries of 3 or 4 DS1 dry cells per circuit. Arm and light repeating for signals out of view of the box would also be powered by DS1 cells.

 

At the box as there were only a small number of relays these would be in a cupboard under the box, as would the batteries required for repeat relays, lever locks, Blocks and phones. 

 

As Sheffield had rather thick air at that time I would expect that there wouldn't be any telegraph wires except for possibly to a cabin over the tracks from the cable run. The cables would have been in wooden trunking or buried in pipes. I have details of some trunking if you want it.

 

Eric

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I've only just caught up with this topic and a couple of thoughts spring to mind.

First, the assumption that the L&Y signals would have been replaced by the LMSR would depend on the importance that the route was accorded by them; perhaps the arms may have been replaced by upper quadrants but a lot of L&Y wooden post signals remained until the late 1960's/early 1970's.

 

Second, track circuits were usually only installed to assist the signalman where visibility was limited but in later years they became more commonplace.

Two of my diagrams made when I was on relief,

post-6748-0-18452000-1415138883_thumb.jpg

post-6748-0-84070000-1415138890_thumb.jpg

The first, New Brighton shows diagrams installed by the LMSR (4 figure numbers) and those installed by BR (T* etc), though 3165 was split by BR into T5/3165 at some time.

West Kirby only had the LMSR track circuits until about 1982 (though visibility was better there).

 

Thirdly, the provision of SPT's on the end of the platforms is unlikely until the 1980's. At Hooton, the down starter was about 440 yards from the box but the management was very reluctant to have a phone installed there, it took a concerted Local Departmental Committee (LDC) campaign to achieve this (but even this only came about when the layout was remodelled).

The West Kirby 1983 diagram notes that SPTs provided by 1989.

Edited by flyingsignalman
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With the layout is set around the early 1960s in mechanical territory most of the cupboards would still be of wood as it assumes an L&Y box with renewals by the LMS. In such areas the standard LMS cupboards were used right up to closure, the coming of Multiple Aspect Signalling or renewals during the 1970s. I remember putting in LMS style cupboards on  MAS stageworks in 1969. 

 

Because most places like this were still powered by batteries there wasn't much option for boosting the voltage so lead lengths on track circuits would necessarily have been kept short. Track circuits were powered by a pair of AD608 Air Depolarised primary cells in parallel. These were about 4" square and 8" high IIRC. Track Relays were all shelf type and the repeat relay circuits to the box were powered by batteries of 3 or 4 DS1 dry cells per circuit. Arm and light repeating for signals out of view of the box would also be powered by DS1 cells.

 

At the box as there were only a small number of relays these would be in a cupboard under the box, as would the batteries required for repeat relays, lever locks, Blocks and phones. 

 

As Sheffield had rather thick air at that time I would expect that there wouldn't be any telegraph wires except for possibly to a cabin over the tracks from the cable run. The cables would have been in wooden trunking or buried in pipes. I have details of some trunking if you want it.

 

Eric

Hi Eric

 

Thank you and it is a big yes to information about the trunking. Do you know where I can get drawings of LMS cupboards, the Warburton LMS signalling book does not include them?

 

Would the cupboards for the up line be alongside the up line and those for the down along side the down line, or could they all be on the same side? Trying to spot them in photos can be quite hard as most photographers seem to like a train in the way.

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I've only just caught up with this topic and a couple of thoughts spring to mind.

First, the assumption that the L&Y signals would have been replaced by the LMSR would depend on the importance that the route was accorded by them; perhaps the arms may have been replaced by upper quadrants but a lot of L&Y wooden post signals remained until the late 1960's/early 1970's.

 

Second, track circuits were usually only installed to assist the signalman where visibility was limited but in later years they became more commonplace.

Two of my diagrams made when I was on relief,

attachicon.gif007.jpg

attachicon.gif014.jpg

The first, New Brighton shows diagrams installed by the LMSR (4 figure numbers) and those installed by BR (T* etc), though 3165 was split by BR into T5/3165 at some time.

West Kirby only had the LMSR track circuits until about 1982 (though visibility was better there).

 

Thirdly, the provision of SPT's on the end of the platforms is unlikely until the 1980's. At Hooton, the down starter was about 440 yards from the box but the management was very reluctant to have a phone installed there, it took a concerted Local Departmental Committee (LDC) campaign to achieve this (but even this only came about when the layout was remodelled).

The West Kirby 1983 diagram notes that SPTs provided by 1989.

Hi Keith

 

Thanks for the information. I really like seeing the hand drawn signal box diagrams, I have a couple copies of ones Natalie drew when she was on the railway and one drawn by a now late member of my club of Nottingham Victoria.

 

SPTs? Are they the phones I have drawn at the end of the platforms? I included them because I can recall seeing platform staff calling the "bobby" to tell him the train was ready at a couple of terminus stations, mainly on the SR in the 70s and 80s. I know at Kings Cross there were train ready plungers along the platforms. So there is a possibity that a station like my fictional one would not have had this feature.

 

You mention that track cuircits were to assist where visiblity was poor, would that include the bridge going across the platform ends?

 

As for the signals I did think about earlier L&YR post with LMS arms but Mr Ratio kits seem the the way forward at the moment. As the layout develops and future funding becomes available then who knows what will happen. It nearly went colour light as I have some left over from older layouts.

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Hi Clive

I haven't got the drawings of the cupboards but I know someone who may be able to get some as I will need them myself soon. I will look out the trunking details and pm you the files. As the cupboards were not on a power supply, using dry cells to run the circuits, they could be dotted around the layout. I will look at the probable places and mark them on the drawing.

 

Regarding Keith's comments, with the difficulty in fitting FPL bars and the bridges I would probably stick with the track circuits. The only one which looks really superfluous is TC6. The joint between TC4 and TC6 would have probably been opposite the mid point of the slip in TC5.

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Would the cupboards for the up line be alongside the up line and those for the down along side the down line, or could they all be on the same side? Trying to spot them in photos can be quite hard as most photographers seem to like a train in the way.

Spotting them without trains is not easy, because in those days there wasn't much electrical stuff associated with signalling. There's a DJ Norton picture of Grand Junction taken from the flyover at Proof House in which there are at least six signal posts in the foreground and only one cupboard in view. That was at an 80-lever box with several hundred train and shunt movements per day.

 

 

As for the signals I did think about earlier L&YR post with LMS arms but Mr Ratio kits seem the the way forward at the moment. As the layout develops and future funding becomes available then who knows what will happen. It nearly went colour light as I have some left over from older layouts.

Have you considered Ratio LNW wooden posts adapted to take LMS/BR arms? It was quite a common refit in the West Midlands.

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Have you considered Ratio LNW wooden posts adapted to take LMS/BR arms? It was quite a common refit in the West Midlands.

It is a very easy mod to do with Ratio kits - well worth it as a way of injecting some variation in the appearance of signals.

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Battery boxes would be sited next to signals as this photo of West Kirby down home shows

post-6748-0-46781300-1415223012.jpg

 

also near to signal boxes, Bromborough 1979.

post-6748-0-80682800-1415223256.jpg

 

Another feature you might like to reproduce is the raised wooden trunking for cables that was used before concrete troughing came along but survived fairly late

post-6748-0-53434600-1415223114.jpg

West Kirby box 1983 showing, to left of the coal bunker some of the raised wooden trunking.

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Hi Clive

 

I haven't got the drawings of the cupboards but I know someone who may be able to get some as I will need them myself soon. I will look out the trunking details and pm you the files. As the cupboards were not on a power supply, using dry cells to run the circuits, they could be dotted around the layout. I will look at the probable places and mark them on the drawing.

 

Regarding Keith's comments, with the difficulty in fitting FPL bars and the bridges I would probably stick with the track circuits. The only one which looks really superfluous is TC6. The joint between TC4 and TC6 would have probably been opposite the mid point of the slip in TC5.

Hi Eric

 

Thank you.

 

As for the signals I think I will stick with Ratio LMS ones for the moment.

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There has been some more work on the coaches. 

 

Last time I cheated with the LMS composite as I had only done one side. Here is the other  side.

 

post-16423-0-47284800-1416169809_thumb.jpg

 

Apart form the second class compartments at the ends all the others have been resized. The LMS CL had wider first class compartments than the C. I am not sure all the effort was worth it. The wider pillars between the first class compartments hardly show when next to the all second conversions I have done, so may be where the RTR guys use the same body for a S and a C, but with some 1s on the doors isn't so lazy.

 

Anyhow here are 2 seconds cut and shut from BSLs.

post-16423-0-70478200-1416170196_thumb.jpg

post-16423-0-44011700-1416170208_thumb.jpg

 

I still find it odd that Airfix all those moons ago chose the two non corridor types that were least produced by the LMS for their models. A C, a S and a BS would have been more useful. With the top coach I have removed the rain strip to give it a more period 3 appearance, the other two shall be modified as well.

 

Now I taken the loos out of the LMS stock, it is time to add them to the BR coaches.

These two SO (NG) have having their middle compartment converted. I have blanked out the quarterlights and opened up the droplight to to the size of a toilet window.

post-16423-0-78475200-1416170460_thumb.jpg

post-16423-0-82176500-1416170471_thumb.jpg

Next time I will place the weathered coach on its own underframe.

 

The CL is also slowing coming on.

post-16423-0-81655800-1416170670_thumb.jpg

Loo widow added as above. The corridor windows on the first class corridor were too long so I have added some plastic card to bring them to the correct length. Because I have left the compartment spacing alone the corridor window spacing on both ends is a little out.

post-16423-0-53024500-1416170683_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi Clive, Good work on the coaches my friend, looks like its all coming together.

 

All the best.

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the coaches look nice but i do not remember the blood and custards being painted up in that way, and the custard was more yellowy than white. :jester:

Richard

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Not much progress this week. Still need to lay the track and wire it up.

 

When I first considered the layout I thought a parcels train would be nice. Enough vans to fill a fiddle yard road with a loco on the front, about 4 foot in length. Whoops, I now have CCTs from the SR, LMS, LNER and BR, full brakes from BR, LMS, LNER (both Gresely and Thompson) and GWR. A couple of BR GUVs, a LMS GUV and a GWR Shiphon. I think the time table will have to start with 3 parcels trains being unloaded and loaded over night.

 

To add to this above list Saturday night I used up the spare bits from my non corridor LMS second class coaches and made a 57ft BG (Dia 2100) and the body for a Stove R . All I need to now is scracth build a chassis for the Stove R.

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The 57 ft LMS BG and the Stove R body.

 

post-16423-0-60929700-1418247831_thumb.jpg

 

post-16423-0-07910600-1418247839.jpg

 

I don't think they will be too bad when finished, especially as the bits were looking at going in the bin.

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To all those kind people who have taken the time to view this topic this is a Christmas card to you all

 

post-16423-0-32976900-1419452071.png

 

Happy Christmas

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To all those kind people who have taken the time to view this topic this is a Christmas card to you all

 

attachicon.gifxmas.png

 

Happy Christmas

I've tried to post a reply to you on Bitton but my Flip Flop has frozen whilst saving, so just to say, did you get my Card with the Money in it? hahhahaha

 

HO HO HO HO HO

 

Merry Christmas mate and a Happy and prosperous 2015 to you and all your Family.

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Not much progress this week. Still need to lay the track and wire it up.

 

When I first considered the layout I thought a parcels train would be nice. Enough vans to fill a fiddle yard road with a loco on the front, about 4 foot in length. Whoops, I now have CCTs from the SR, LMS, LNER and BR, full brakes from BR, LMS, LNER (both Gresely and Thompson) and GWR. A couple of BR GUVs, a LMS GUV and a GWR Shiphon. I think the time table will have to start with 3 parcels trains being unloaded and loaded over night.

 

To add to this above list Saturday night I used up the spare bits from my non corridor LMS second class coaches and made a 57ft BG (Dia 2100) and the body for a Stove R . All I need to now is scracth build a chassis for the Stove R.

 

Have you thought about converting a Bachmann/Mainline LMS period I BTK into a BG?  Several of these were done in real life as they were converted to ambulance trains during ww2 and then converted to BGs afterwards.

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Merry Christmas and a productive modelling 2015

 

Thanks for your input over the last year Clive, it is much appreciated :fan:

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Happy Christmas to you and yours Clive, look forward to catching up somewhere in the new year and seeing the new layouts

 

A

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Have you thought about converting a Bachmann/Mainline LMS period I BTK into a BG?  Several of these were done in real life as they were converted to ambulance trains during ww2 and then converted to BGs afterwards.

Hi Tony

 

It has been considered. I think the next parcels stock will be some more 4 wheelers, possibly Parkside SR CCts and PMVs. Then I might have a go at building a GWR BG.

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Happy Christmas to you and yours Clive, look forward to catching up somewhere in the new year and seeing the new layouts

 

A

Hi Andi

 

You and Mrs Badge are more than welcome to come and visit.

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I've tried to post a reply to you on Bitton but my Flip Flop has frozen whilst saving, so just to say, did you get my Card with the Money in it? hahhahaha

 

HO HO HO HO HO

 

Merry Christmas mate and a Happy and prosperous 2015 to you and all your Family.

Hi Andy

 

Hasn't the Royal Mail got in contact with you. :dontknow: They did me they are very concerned at you sending half a million pounds in the post. :O The main concern is for the five postmen that have gone off sick with ruptures, :O  :O  :O  1 million 50p coins is a tad heavy to lift. :no: :no: :no: :rtfm:

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Well it has been a week since I last posted. I was hoping to report I had trains running but life is such I haven't got that far. I have just come in from the man shed where I have been finishing my cable forms (wiring looms) and testing them. A couple of silly cross wires but all working as planned now. 

 

Happy New Year

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