Sheffield Exchange, Toy trains, music and fun!

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

I reckon even I could clear those jumps...

With or without Lola?

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

The LMS coaches are now at the waiting filler stage so I will put them to one side for a moment.

 

Back to LNER, this time a non gangway set of coaches. The Hertford Quad-art, I think I mentioned it before. Having realised that mixing kirk and Hornby LNER bits wasn't going to work I was stumped as what to do. I looked at my other Kirk coaches and have withdrawn a 8 compartment second, this is my diagram 105 coach. In fact I swapped a reasonable second hand one's bogies with those of a better built coach (by richard i) and that is now in the four car Doncaster local set.  After doing this I got out the Kirk sides I bought at Warley and started to mark them with my pencil, what a daft thing to be doing why not cut the parts out I thought. Now when I purchased these sides I didn't have my drawings with me and thought the compartments were "standard" sizes, well the diagrams 105 and 102 are but the two middle coaches are not. The composite (diagram 103) has two standard seconds but the four first are longer, and the other all second (diagram 104) has shorter compartments.  I had the following sides , 4 seconds, 2 first and 2 full brake. Now luckily the paneling on the van of the brake second (diagram 102) is the same as on the full brake and the two sets of double doors are the same distance. After building the corridor stock recently I didn't think the LNER had anything brake van wise the same.

The Brake Second diagram 102 , bits from the full bake sides and one of the seconds.

 

The composite diagram 103, using bits from a first side and two second sides.

 

The intermediate second diagram 104, using bits from the other first side with bits from other first and the two second sides used in making the composite.

 

The diagram 105 all second. Off its bogies and I have one end to rebuild for the articulating gubbins.

 

Once I got going working out the cuts became easy. Now to make the chassis, ends, assemble the sides and cut the roofs to size. 

It isn't really a set taht would been seen in the Sheffield area, it is being built to compliment the GER EMUs I am building.

 

Tonight's song is quite an old one. Skating Polly covered it on their last LP, they copied the Nazareth version with distinctive the raw vocals of Dan McCafferty. Now the song is a folk song originally by Bonnie Dobson and sounds very different to how Skating Polly and Nazareth  interpreted it, neither do many other recordings of it. Where did Nazareth get their inspiration from, I had no idea until I found this version where Lulu turns this song around.

 

Nazareth were much more than a second division heavy metal band. I particularly like their versions of "Love Hurts" and "This Flight Tonight" (provocative hat on: I find that I like most Joni Mitchell (and Bob Dylan, for that matter) songs better when someone else is singing them).

[Enterprisingwestern]

11 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

After Mrs M had a fall and hurt her back I made her buy the body protection.

 

No idea about the grey we believe he comes from Ireland. He is very naughty he keeps attacking Ferne the new 'orse.

 

Is that a Jamaican horse?

 

Mike.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Is that a Jamaican horse?

 

Mike.

Michael

 

That is Ferne's goth hair do.

[TheSignalEngineer]

9 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Eric

 

Do you have the Jenkinson and Essery three volume LMS coach books. In Volume 2 there are diagrams of both types and as normal they are of the compartment side, but there is a photo of the corridor side of a D1755. The D1754 diagram is quite clear and from it the corridor window positions should be possible to work out.

 

Period one stock was withdrawn (sadly) just before the period I am modelling, except the ex ambulance BGs, I have a BTK sat next to me and I have bookmarked Robert Carol's photos of one and John Turner's photos ready to convert it.

Hi Clive, 

I don't have that one, just the sort of combined version which only shows the BTK. 

Regarding the Ambulance conversions there are a couple on views of New Street on Warwickshire Railways. 

Eric

[TheSignalEngineer]

Not sure of the donor for this one but it became a casualty itself. It was replaced on this duty by a Mk1 BG. https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcov192.htm

[TheSignalEngineer]

One outside the Coffee House. https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_str407.htm

Can't find the other I'm thinking of at the moment, may be in a book or on Flickr, but it had arrived on the Rugby parcels. 

[Clive Mortimore]

28 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Not sure of the donor for this one but it became a casualty itself. It was replaced on this duty by a Mk1 BG. https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcov192.htm

Hi Eric

 

Thank you for the links

 

I had forgotten that photo, I have a class 3 tank to make and the angle that photo has been taken is excellent, it is at normal model viewing degrees. The coach body seems to have been turned around on the chassis. the windows (including those plated) suggest the corridor side of a TK or CK. The LMS normally had the batteries on the corridor side and the distributor on the compartment side.

 

21 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

One outside the Coffee House. https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrbns_str407.htm

Can't find the other I'm thinking of at the moment, may be in a book or on Flickr, but it had arrived on the Rugby parcels. 

I love the horse dray being loaded and it is the 1960s.....now no rude comments from the cheap seats about Birmingham always being behind the times.

 

These rebuilds all seem so different, as long as I don't pick a number of one from a known photo who will be able to say it is wrong?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Hi Clive,

I found the other Ambulance conversion I was looking for. It's in Michael Mensing's London Midland Steam in the Midlands, hauled by 40108 at New Street.

 

11 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Eric

 

Thank you for the links

 

...................

 

I love the horse dray being loaded and it is the 1960s.....now no rude comments from the cheap seats about Birmingham always being behind the times.

Just before that we were still getting NER, Highland Railway and M&GN (ex Midland) stock on our holiday trains. We were still running Johnson 2Fs into the 1960s and Super Ds from Bescot until someone decreed in 1964 that the whistle on top of the cab was too close to the OHLE

 

 

23 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Period one stock was withdrawn (sadly) just before the period I am modelling,

 

What was your earliest date? They seemed to hang around for quite a time in the Midlands. I've just found a nice mixture from July 1961 for a Birmingham - Liverpool special which has about 10 on, starting Thompson BSK (brake trailing), Mk1, Porthole, Period 1 all-door, then a string of Period 3 stock. 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

54 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Hi Clive,

I found the other Ambulance conversion I was looking for. It's in Michael Mensing's London Midland Steam in the Midlands, hauled by 40108 at New Street.

 

Just before that we were still getting NER, Highland Railway and M&GN (ex Midland) stock on our holiday trains. We were still running Johnson 2Fs into the 1960s and Super Ds from Bescot until someone decreed in 1964 that the whistle on top of the cab was too close to the OHLE

 

 

 

What was your earliest date? They seemed to hang around for quite a time in the Midlands. I've just found a nice mixture from July 1961 for a Birmingham - Liverpool special which has about 10 on, starting Thompson BSK (brake trailing), Mk1, Porthole, Period 1 all-door, then a string of Period 3 stock. 

 

Hi Eric

 

Why wasn't a 2F preserved, or a 3F or more to the point the last Kirtley 0-6-0?

 

Most my diesels have yellow panels so 1962 to about 67-8 when blue started to appear everywhere. When I think that coach will be a nice one to model I look the type up in Hugh Longworth's wonderful books and If there were survivors as late as 1964 or later then I add them to the list. Some period I non-gangway stock lasted long enough for me to consider, I have an Airfix compo lav which I am thinking of using as an experiment for paneling.

 

Last night when I worked out what I needed for my Hertford Quad-art I had enough bits left over to build a LNER 5 compartment BS, looked in the Longworth book and the last to go was in 1959.

 

My layout is designed to be more of a DMU based model than a loco hauled one. When I get this batch of models finished (well running) I can run the layout without a single DMU. Not sure if I can make it all steam?

 

I do hope the rest of the DEMU committee do not read the last sentence.

 

 

[richard i]

Come over to the light.

see the glow of the firebox.

it draws you in, there is no turning back.

 

all said in a creepy voice- naturally.

richard

[TheSignalEngineer]

8 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Why wasn't a 2F preserved, or a 3F or more to the point the last Kirtley 0-6-0?

I remember BR/Clapham Museum putting together a list probably early 1960s not long after Evening Star appeared. It contained about 50 locos many of which were already at York, Crewe and Swindon. Unfortunately the pre-group types were rapidly being cut up, and it wasn't until the mid-1960s that standard gauge preservation societies really started to take off.

 

8 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Most my diesels have yellow panels so 1962 to about 67-8 when blue started to appear everywhere.

At the moment most of my modelling is the other way, My cut-off is no SYP, although I do have an 03 with wasp stripes. My other five diesel locos and three DMUs are all as they would have been around 1959/60.

I wanted to do things in the West Midlands of my childhood, so I am setting my layout in a late 1950s Black Country style. Nothing much changed after nationalisation until about 1954 when most of the old signs had gone. There was very little change between 1954 and the Corporate Identity Manual except for Snow Hill resignalling, Coventry rebuilding and the transition from non-corridor loco hauled stock to DMUs and cascading of more modern steam era stuff as main lines were taken over by the diesels. We still had some LNW and Midland signals into the 1970s.

 

 

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

4 hours ago, richard i said:

Come over to the light.

see the glow of the firebox.

it draws you in, there is no turning back.

 

all said in a creepy voice- naturally.

richard

At the present moment I think I am modelling a time period where I can enjoy watching various types of traction and rolling stock running side by side so the best of all worlds. 

[Clive Mortimore]

20 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I remember BR/Clapham Museum putting together a list probably early 1960s not long after Evening Star appeared. It contained about 50 locos many of which were already at York, Crewe and Swindon. Unfortunately the pre-group types were rapidly being cut up, and it wasn't until the mid-1960s that standard gauge preservation societies really started to take off.

 

At the moment most of my modelling is the other way, My cut-off is no SYP, although I do have an 03 with wasp stripes. My other five diesel locos and three DMUs are all as they would have been around 1959/60.

I wanted to do things in the West Midlands of my childhood, so I am setting my layout in a late 1950s Black Country style. Nothing much changed after nationalisation until about 1954 when most of the old signs had gone. There was very little change between 1954 and the Corporate Identity Manual except for Snow Hill resignalling, Coventry rebuilding and the transition from non-corridor loco hauled stock to DMUs and cascading of more modern steam era stuff as main lines were taken over by the diesels. We still had some LNW and Midland signals into the 1970s.

 

 

 

 

Hi Eric

 

The preservation world is one I cannot get my head around. Why they have preserved so many of this class but none of that class argument will continue for ever. We must just be thankful someone people have spent the cash and time to save what has been saved.

 

My chosen period also comes from when I was a child. In 1966 we went on holiday to North Wales by train. At Crewe our electric loco was changed to a diesel so we seemed to have spent ages there. Sadly  I wasn't trainspotting then, but the sight of the old and new working together has stayed with me. Steam along side EMUs, diesel locos swapping trains with electrics and DMUs busying themselves has stayed with me. I have chosen Sheffield as a location because of the potential of quite a diverse selection of loco and DMU types. I still keep tinkering with just calling the layout Exchange and putting up some OLE so I can run my EMUs as well. That then goes against my own feelings about a model layout, you should be able to say what railway(s) operated the line without any rolling stock on it.

[Stubby47]

That then goes against my own feelings about a model layout, you should be able to say what railway(s) operated the line without any rolling stock on it.

 

I made Tinner's Forge deliberately un-era/region specific,  so I can run anything from GWR to blue diesel, without any looking ouf of place. 

[Clive Mortimore]

Last night I thought it best to assemble the sides of the Hertford Quad-art before I got the bits mixed up or lost. There were a few problems, where I was mixing bits from different types of coaches I found that the Kirk sides are not the same thickness, some the beading on the paneling does not line up with others, and some appeared taller in height. I over came the thickness by adding a strip of 10 thou plastic card between the side and the 40 thou support I mount the cut up sides on. There is not much I can do with the mismatched beading, this is on the brake so hopefully will not notice too much. The taller appearance I think was due to a lot of flash on the lower edge of some of the sides, that was simply removed.  All this sounds like a criticism of Ian Kirk's hard work, it is not had I built the coaches as intended I don't think I would have noticed and to be fair had Ian not made the moulds in the first place I would not been able to cut them about to make my model. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[TheSignalEngineer]

Going back to the Period 1 BCK, from my previous cut'n'shut for the TK I have a complete compartment side from a Replica CK which is perfect to cut out a set of the six compartments for a D1754. I've also got two cut up Mainline coaches which have a complete guards compartment and about one and a half corridor sides. D1755 is a bit more difficult due to the opposite arrangement of the compartments but is still possible.

In the carriage bits box there are also two complete Mainline underframes, roofs and ends, and two CK interiors so it looks as if the job is on. Jenkinson gives the last withdrawl for both types as 1963 so that fits nicely.

[Sandhole]

On 02/09/2019 at 19:59, Clive Mortimore said:

After Mrs M had a fall and hurt her back I made her buy the body protection.

 

No idea about the grey we believe he comes from Ireland. He is very naughty he keeps attacking Ferne the new 'orse.

That is extremely wise, can't fault you!!!
The photograph......WOW!!!!! I've never seen a Fell with their mane plaitted before!! That is one hell of a lot of work there!!

 

[Sandhole]

Just now, Sandhole said:

That is extremely wise, can't fault you!!!
The photograph......WOW!!!!! I've never seen a Fell with their mane plaitted before!! That is one hell of a lot of work there!!

 

Brings back memories of show days. Plaiting and the needle and thread to make 'em nice and tidy!!!! Then there was the Suffolk Punch on livery who I braided ribbons into her mane...........That is one of the many reason's why I am well strange!!!!

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

9 hours ago, Sandhole said:

WOW!!!!! I've never seen a Fell with their mane plaitted before!!

No wonder the Fell wasn't a success if it was always being plaitted.

[TheSignalEngineer]

A bit more investigation on the Period 1 BCK. Looking more into the compartment side arrangements the D1755 having the third class away from the brake end means that the toilet and first four compartments are virtually identical to the BTK. At the brake end the ducket and guards door can be left in place. What's left then is to make the guards door into a double door then add a toilet and two first class compartments. The biggest problem on the corridor side is to convert the guards door to a double door, this being a mirror image of the normal ones having the droplight in the right hand side.                          

[Clive Mortimore]

32 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

A bit more investigation on the Period 1 BCK. Looking more into the compartment side arrangements the D1755 having the third class away from the brake end means that the toilet and first four compartments are virtually identical to the BTK. At the brake end the ducket and guards door can be left in place. What's left then is to make the guards door into a double door then add a toilet and two first class compartments. The biggest problem on the corridor side is to convert the guards door to a double door, this being a mirror image of the normal ones having the droplight in the right hand side.                          

Finding there is one door or window that is in the "wrong " place and it needs moving is part of the fun in cutting and shutting. The end result in having something you want and you done it yourself is rewarding, plus if it was fun doing it even better.

 

Work on the Hertford Quad-art continues, the white metal bogies are now built and the two intermediate coach underframes are done. Tomorrow I should have the brake coaches underframe finished and I can then test the running of the set. 

[Denbridge]

23 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Eric

 

The preservation world is one I cannot get my head around. Why they have preserved so many of this class but none of that class argument will continue for ever. We must just be thankful someone people have spent the cash and time to save what has been saved.

 

My chosen period also comes from when I was a child. In 1966 we went on holiday to North Wales by train. At Crewe our electric loco was changed to a diesel so we seemed to have spent ages there. Sadly  I wasn't trainspotting then, but the sight of the old and new working together has stayed with me. Steam along side EMUs, diesel locos swapping trains with electrics and DMUs busying themselves has stayed with me. I have chosen Sheffield as a location because of the potential of quite a diverse selection of loco and DMU types. I still keep tinkering with just calling the layout Exchange and putting up some OLE so I can run my EMUs as well. That then goes against my own feelings about a model layout, you should be able to say what railway(s) operated the line without any rolling stock on it.

The main reason for having multiple examples of certain classes,  is simply what was available from Barry scrap yard.  Dai Woodham was  the only one who kept locos rather than immediately put the torch to them.

[Clive Mortimore]

17 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

The main reason for having multiple examples of certain classes,  is simply what was available from Barry scrap yard.  Dai Woodham was  the only one who kept locos rather than immediately put the torch to them.

 

I wasn't opening the debate, and I am not too sure how many Deltics , Hovers and Tractors were stored at Barry. I did end up saying,  "We must just be thankful someone people have spent the cash and time to save what has been saved."

[Welchester]

4 hours ago, Denbridge said:

The main reason for having multiple examples of certain classes,  is simply what was available from Barry scrap yard.  Dai Woodham was  the only one who kept locos rather than immediately put the torch to them.

 

It was down, I think, to having enough sidings to store the locos while he got on with the more lucrative business of cutting up wagons. Other scrapyards seem to have had constraints of space.