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Clive Mortimore
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19 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Last night I ventured into the the train room and was testing my Sulzer Type 2 Bo-Bos. The up line had an LNER non-gangway train formed of 8 coaches and the Hertford quad-art, so 12 in all. The down train was formed of 10 LMS non-gangway coaches. Both trains are equal length give or take an inch,  The rolling resistance is very similar, the LNER train having one more bogie. I only tested the ones in their boxes as the ones on the train set run OK. First up were a pair of Bachy 25s, they pulled the trains but were not very fast, which is fine as I do not hammer the hell out of my trains on Exchange. 

 

Next were a series of Hornby locos converted 24s and 25s they all ran really well except the newer model which was made in China. Its fisnish is lovely and they pick up bogie has been modified so wheels on both sides pick up. Lots of whirring sound but it couldn't shift the train until I added more lead to it, then it wasn't as good as the older Margate models.  It was fun seeing a pair of 24s zooming around the train set, they also were happy trundling along at lower thyan normal line speed.

 

Last was my DJH class 25. it runs, it started with the train OK, and was a tad faster than the Bachy locos after a wheel clean and a oil up. When testing it light engine foe slow running it was fine. It when I stop it and reverse it, it goes a couple of inches and then stops, in both directions. Why I don't know? It does start to roll with a gentle touch of the hand of Odin , it did get threatened at one point with the hammer of Thor.

 

Off to continue loco testing, class 37s next.

 

I will leave you with these young ladies.

 

Clive, I take my hat off to you if you managed to finish a DJH Class 25 and have running properly. My pathetic effort is still in the loft 30 years after abandoning and hope of ever sorting it out. Did you build it as per the parts in the or did you have to modify or replace the motor bogie or anything else ? Any chance of a picture because I’ve never seen one finished ?

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1 hour ago, jazzer said:

Clive, I take my hat off to you if you managed to finish a DJH Class 25 and have running properly. My pathetic effort is still in the loft 30 years after abandoning and hope of ever sorting it out. Did you build it as per the parts in the or did you have to modify or replace the motor bogie or anything else ? Any chance of a picture because I’ve never seen one finished ?

Hi Jazzer

 

It was a rescue job, I saw it sitting in John Dutfields, looking very sad for itself. All I have done is regauged to a sensible gauge, not EM and got it running. It still needs a repaint and a buffer where one is missing. When the kit first came out there was nothing but praise for it, well it is etched brass. To be honest it is quite a poor rendition of the prototype.

100_4659a.jpg.2e8815295bdda13befe2c77473867d81.jpg

Here it is with a Bachy loco and one of the Hornby conversions I have done.

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2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Jazzer

 

It was a rescue job, I saw it sitting in John Dutfields, looking very sad for itself. All I have done is regauged to a sensible gauge, not EM and got it running. It still needs a repaint and a buffer where one is missing. When the kit first came out there was nothing but praise for it, well it is etched brass. To be honest it is quite a poor rendition of the prototype.

100_4659a.jpg.2e8815295bdda13befe2c77473867d81.jpg

Here it is with a Bachy loco and one of the Hornby conversions I have done.

Thanks . It was the motor bogie that was my undoing . I suppose at that time kits were rated highly compared with whatever else was about . I did a DJH Ivatt tank (which is still not finish off) but I never really got on with them . Modern rtr’s are usually so much better although it is still a bit hit and miss to get one that runs properly.

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Hi All

 

Nothing has been happening in the play room this week. I have been travelling to and from Bedford, and doing some decorating. I am striping the wall paper off the our son's bedroom. It is a right blighter to get off. It has been painted with at least two layers of semi-gloss paint, so scoring it and then soaking it is not having much effect. Once the paint layer is off there is another layer of backing paper, and in some places two layers, and who ever put it up has used extra strength wall paper paste. Once the paper is off the walls have had so many holes filled in with what looks like cement not pollyfilla. Trouble with wall paper stripping there is always that little bit to pull and the next thing I know it is too late to start playing trains.

 

I am now going to get on my soap box. Do videos and advice like this help people who get confused with 8 and 21 pin sockets when considering DCC? And why continue with a DC system for the accessories if you are trying to eliminate wiring? 

 

Real railway. Signalman sets route, and correct signals indicating the line ahead is clear. The guard (or person responsible for the train) informs the driver it is OK for him to go. The driver then pulls  a leaver and Chuff Chuff, or Brummm Brumm, or some sort of whirring sound and the magic thing happens and the train is moving.

 

DCC system, operator plays with some buttons and the route is set, signals (if working) are cleared. As the driver and the guard are normally the same person, sometimes not if the train is made up my another person in the fuddle yard, anyhow the train is ready to go, then a button is pushed or slider moved or a knob turned and if sound fitted Chuff Chuff, or Brummm Brumm, if not some sort of whirring sound and the magic thing happens and the train is moving.

 

DC system, Route is set, signals ( if fitted and working) are cleared. Like DCC the train crew are normally the same bloke/lass and he is often the signalman/woman as well, so when the train is ready the normally knob is turned, sometimes a slider is pushed and some sort of whirring sound and the magic thing happens and the train is moving. I do sometimes make the Chuff Chuff or Brummm Brumm sounds, usually only in my head.

 

 

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Clive

 

Sorry to hear about your Mum.

 

I must admit that I'd recommend analogue control of points and signals when the trains have decoders fitted. The sole reason is that DCC controlled accessories can mean the need to remember the accessory number for the point/signal in order to operate it. Analogue controlled accessories do mean additional wiring but enable the user to have switches on mimic panels without any further investment.

 

I don't wish to start an off topic discussion on this but you did ask.

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13 hours ago, Ray H said:

Clive

 

Sorry to hear about your Mum.

 

I must admit that I'd recommend analogue control of points and signals when the trains have decoders fitted. The sole reason is that DCC controlled accessories can mean the need to remember the accessory number for the point/signal in order to operate it. Analogue controlled accessories do mean additional wiring but enable the user to have switches on mimic panels without any further investment.

 

I don't wish to start an off topic discussion on this but you did ask.

Hi Ray

 

Thank you.

 

Are videos like the one I shared really helpful to those who are confused with the difference between 8 or 21 pin decoders?

 

Having operated Rowntree Sidings, where you push a button on the hand set which sets the route and the signals using DCC controlled points, I found that very easy to use and is a big positive to DCC. I just find it confusing when people who are new to DCC are told, it is less wiring. It is then suggested they use their old DC controller for the point motors etc. so by the time all the droppers are in place and the point and signal wiring where is the saving over DC?  Other oddities are "You don't need sections" but " If you have power fields (or what ever they are called), you can easily find where the short is." Well aren't these power thingies nothing but sections? And when I have a short I eliminate where it is by switching off all the sections that are powered. Not that I have them often and last time the cause was a pair of pliers I had dumped on the track after fixing a loco.

 

If you want lights, sound and action then go for the whole hog like the Rowntree Sidings gang. If you only want action then save a few bob on decoders and stick with DC.

 

It just worries me that people who want to be railway modellers but get confused with such things like "voltage drop" not that many layouts suffer noticeably with it, can be put off the hobby when the DCC wizards bombard them with too much technical stuff.  I do understand about voltage drop. As an apprentice with the CEGB at college we did study power supply when the power station is x miles away from the town of a population of y and z number businesses. The town is to potentially grow by 2/3rds over the life time of the wires supplying it, so what size wires and what material are needed if the supply voltage is 132kv? 

Edited by Clive Mortimore
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47 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Ray

 

Thank you.

 

Are videos like the one I shared really helpful to those who are confused with the difference between 8 or 21 pin decoders?

 

Having operated Rowntree Sidings, where you push a button on the hand set which sets the route and the signals using DCC controlled points, I found that very easy to use and is a big positive to DCC. I just find it confusing when people who are new to DCC are told, it is less wiring. It is then suggested they use their old DC controller for the point motors etc. so by the time all the droppers are in place and the point and signal wiring where is the saving over DC?  Other oddities are "You don't need sections" but " If you have power fields (or what ever they are called), you can easily find where the short is." Well aren't these power thingies nothing but sections? And when I have a short I eliminate where it is by switching off all the sections that are powered. Not that I have them often and last time the cause was a pair of pliers I had dumped on the track after fixing a loco.

 

If you want lights, sound and action then go for the whole hog like the Rowntree Sidings gang. If you only want action then save a few bob on decoders and stick with DC.

 

It just worries me that people who want to be railway modellers but get confused with such things like "voltage drop" not that many layouts suffer noticeably with it, can be put off the hobby when the DCC wizards bombard them with too much technical stuff.  I do understand about voltage drop. As an apprentice with the CEGB at college we did study power supply when the power station is x miles away from the town of a population off y and z number businesses. The town is to potentially grow by 2/3rds over the life time of the wires supplying it, so what size wires and what material are needed if the supply voltage is 132kv? 

Hi Clive,

Good to see you back in the saddle so to speak. When I lost my Mum I found it so helpful to be able to switch to something lighter for a while, even if the family jobs piled up awaiting my return!

Like your DCC or not theory, and your "voltage drop at the CEGB tale, bought back memories of my 4 years there over the privatization period. Mind you I was in the commercial side not the technical!.

I do agree with you about the problem of "too much information" when questions are asked on threads.

Unfortunately too, many people (present company excepted) when replying tend to forget the "Its my layout so I will do what I want " convention. This leads to newcomers (to a topic, not necessarily to modelling!) getting a distorted view of a subject.

I have learnt not to seize on the first reply as giving the whole picture but to wait for a few days and see what else comes out.

 

I will now put my soapbox away, and ask what your next build is going to be?

 

Best regards

Paul

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Clive,

 

I couldn't agree more with your last post, particularly "aren't these power thingies nothing but sections". Exactly, and indeed the DCC advocates will tell you that each rail section needs separate feeds to make for a totally pukka sytem. So much for two wires.

 

Anyway here's the thing. I have a traditional DC sectioned layout with effectively two ovals, a classic roundy roundy. A year or two back I bought a Gaugemaster controller and transformer, a Tech 6, that simply by pushing a button switches from DC to DCC and back. It was around £100 and just attached to my existing wiring as any DC only controller. It has only one DCC address setting 03, and you need to be careful not to turn it to DCC when a DC loco is live. Otherwise it has most DCC functions, particularly sound. I wasn't sure if I thought DCC was a good idea or not, so it's been a simple way of having a trial, particularly with the cheapo TTS Hornby sound system. Frankly, I'm not sure I'm that impressed, though I do like my Railroad TTS 31's bought in a sale making 31 type noises! As we've discussed before, the lights are a nonsense for any layout set back in the transition era.

 

The DCC does seem to work however, with the odd DCC specific gremlin, on my DC section wiring. I haven't got a feed to each rail section, relying on rail joiners, and even more heretically my points rely on blade contact to work, but by and large they do, and on DC I've had over 15 years near trouble free running. So I do wonder if in fact what's happened is that the DCC enthusiasts have got rather carried away with the electrical side and bumping up the spec. and requirements, whereas it can be done quite acceptably with rather less of the religious fervour and fuss!

 

John.

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Our club O gauge layout has just been converted to DCC operation. We took the opportunity to switch from numerous wires of one colour (feeding numerous dc sections as well as several other non track related items) to use specific wire colours for dedicated purposes, but that's by the by.

 

We have just spent an interesting few weeks tweaking acceleration (and chuff rates) to what we believe are more realistic rates. All this (save the chuffs) could be achieved with careful use of a DC controller by the operator. However, and this is one advantage the switch has given us, we have a section of the layout where trains automatically move along a section of track as the preceding itself moves forward. Once again we could and with some electronic gadgetry did similar pre-DCC. The DCC bonus is that each train on this auto section of track accelerates and brakes far more realistically than we ever managed to achieve pre-DCC without human intervention at the time.

 

Don't get me wrong, I share your views regarding making things over complex for beginners and accept that there are (still) situations where a DC powered system wins hands down over a DCC one as indeed there are some benefits of DCC which you can't get with DC operation.

 

I'll even admit that on my home OO layout where the regularly used motive power is all fitted with DCC sound I find that after a while the sound can become intrusive and I often use the layout with the sound off.

 

Each to his own.

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If and when we move, I hope to build a simple OO Gauge roundy Layout probably based on Evercreech New, but NOT necessarily S & D, but nice and simple, but as the Stock will be predominantly Steam era, I don't intend to get involved in DCC. This is for a couple of reasons;

firstly I will only be running two Trains at a time.

Secondly there will be minimal operation other than passing and stopping Trains.

Thirdly and possibly the most important is the damage I have done to Steam Stock in the past, things like Valve gear, pipes, steps, etc when removing or re fitting Loco Bodies. Now I know a lot of the newer Tender Locos have all the Sockets etc in the Tender, but if I DCC just one Loco then I have to do the Fleet, and that will by definition at some point require me to break a nice Loco by having to get inside the Body.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love DCC in my O Gauge Diesels, and my OO Diesels, but I will just stick to them for Sound etc.

 

I still think Point and Signal operation is best done on a Panel or Lever Frame for authenticity.

 

I was around at a mates last night and he is DC / Analogue and also runs on Peco Foam Underlay, the Locos run really smooth and quiet, but there was a certain magic about the Clickety Clack as the Trains passed over the Rail Joins, and especially the 22 Wagon Loaded Coal Train, and the 15 x 6 Wheeled Milk Tanks. AND we could hold a normal conversation just as we could on my visit to Faulty :nono:Sheffield Exchange Towers recently.:good:

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2 hours ago, Andrew P said:

I still think Point and Signal operation is best done on a Panel or Lever Frame for authenticity.

So do I, which is why I use NCE Mini Panels for one-button route setting in my storage yards instead of having to build diode matrices.

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I had a few minutes in the train room tonight. I have now run all but one Type 3. The one that has not been run is one I failed last year and still have not sorted it. Almost all the Tri-ang body on Lima chassis locos had to be modified, the motor bogie was not swiveling freely. A few strokes with a file soon sorted them out. Most needed their wheels cleaning. A surprise was the one loco that still has a Tri-ang power bogie, with modified side frames, it ran quite nicely. The let down was the scratchbuilt loco  with its Hornby bogies, very poor runner. I am going to have another look at it to see if I can get to to perform better.

 

The other day I read another carp essay on punk and yet again forgetting what most of us got out of it, Joe Strummer sums it up at the end of this song, "I'm only looking for fun, Looking for fun, F, U, N."

 

Edited by Clive Mortimore
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On 21/09/2019 at 00:38, Clive Mortimore said:

cut/.....

While I was butchering some plastic card, I got distracted. I had a Hornby Railroad coach play up, and discovered I could move the wheels on the axle to get the right back to back. That then lead me to have a look at a Hatchet coach, you cannot alter them, so I dug around in my coach bits boxes and found some Bachmann wheels, swapped them over and it ran better than it has before.

 

In raking around in the boxes I looked at the Trix Commonwealth bogies , they are about 3/4mm too short in wheelbase. I put some bigger wheels in, I think they are Dapol from their LMS coach kits. Cut the bogies off the Mk1 chassis under the Griddle Car and slapped on the Trix ones. They look great, the scale size wheels and being under a scale length coach improved the look of the bogies as well as the bogies making coach look better. It did look a tad daft when running behind a six coach suburban train

....../cut

 

Thanks Clive your post reminded me that in the depths of my stock box a pair of old Trix Commonwealth bogies are lurking. Another poster (can't remember who) also adding they are pre-shaped for fitting tension locks.

 

Not at Warley this year so taking the time to at least achieve something model related over this weekend. I have now dug the bogies out together with some of my old Triang/Hornby coaches one of which has two broken bogies. Having now done some swapping around the one in need of new bogies is a Blue/Grey liveried example, running number 15865, which my copy of Parkin's Mk 1 coaches book indicates is a Diag 128 example. Although I am by no means a rivet counter, I prefer not to make avoidable mistakes, therefore will it be appropriate to put these spare bogies as the replacements under that coach? The Parkin book does not cover bogie types and post-build swaps. The layout this Mk 1 is most likely to appear on next is contemporary/preserved so recent preservation era observations on the question welcome.

 

If not which Mk 1s of that T/H era could they go under as one big advantage of these early T/H coaches is chassis are swappable so I may have a more appropriate body example to swap this broken chassis with. I know the coaches from this era are way behind modern examples in their accuracy levels but I can live with it as I grew up with them. As I say living with an original manufacturer's error is one thing, newly adding an extra one stupid.

 

Edited by john new
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I didn't make it to Warley this year so to view the videos that have been posted is a nice way to see what I missed. I have just watched the two "modern image" videos on the Warley thread. They are well shot and despite how busy Warley is there is not too much visitor chatter in the background, which makes them even more enjoyable.

 

I am a little pleased that I did not attend because if I had I might have cried or said somethings the owners might want to hear, the diesel loco depot layouts. "You expect to get that much petrol from the tank wagon to go in that storage tank?" "How many reversals to refuel?" "Where is the mainline connection, somewhere under all those houses above the cutting?" "So with that big crane this single road shed is a level 5 depot?"

 

I would have thought with the wonderful "On Shed" series of bookzines we would start to see some realistic depot layouts, not yet more displays of "My locos are noisier than yours."

 

 

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10 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I didn't make it to Warley this year so to view the videos that have been posted is a nice way to see what I missed. I have just watched the two "modern image" videos on the Warley thread. They are well shot and despite how busy Warley is there is not too much visitor chatter in the background, which makes them even more enjoyable.

 

I am a little pleased that I did not attend because if I had I might have cried or said somethings the owners might want to hear, the diesel loco depot layouts. "You expect to get that much petrol from the tank wagon to go in that storage tank?" "How many reversals to refuel?" "Where is the mainline connection, somewhere under all those houses above the cutting?" "So with that big crane this single road shed is a level 5 depot?"

 

I would have thought with the wonderful "On Shed" series of bookzines we would start to see some realistic depot layouts, not yet more displays of "My locos are noisier than yours."

 

 

 

 

I had great difficulty getting to see many layouts, but there were a couple of noisy ones.

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21 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I didn't make it to Warley this year so to view the videos that have been posted is a nice way to see what I missed. I have just watched the two "modern image" videos on the Warley thread. They are well shot and despite how busy Warley is there is not too much visitor chatter in the background, which makes them even more enjoyable.

 

I am a little pleased that I did not attend because if I had I might have cried or said somethings the owners might want to hear, the diesel loco depot layouts. "You expect to get that much petrol from the tank wagon to go in that storage tank?" "How many reversals to refuel?" "Where is the mainline connection, somewhere under all those houses above the cutting?" "So with that big crane this single road shed is a level 5 depot?"

 

I would have thought with the wonderful "On Shed" series of bookzines we would start to see some realistic depot layouts, not yet more displays of "My locos are noisier than yours."

 

 

S'funny what errors we each spot Clive.  I've learned a lot about depots from you to spot errors which I'd otherwise have missed.

 

But those geographical and structural nonsenses jump out at me.  How many of small stations and depots are accessed through a tunnel or bridge with buildings on top, whose foundations would be 6 feet below the roof of the tunnel?  

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8 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

S'funny what errors we each spot Clive.  I've learned a lot about depots from you to spot errors which I'd otherwise have missed.

 

But those geographical and structural nonsenses jump out at me.  How many of small stations and depots are accessed through a tunnel or bridge with buildings on top, whose foundations would be 6 feet below the roof of the tunnel?  

:D:lol:

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Whilst I tend to agree re the overly shallow depth of many modelled footings of buildings and tunnels/bridges they aren't always as obviously deep as you would think. Front and back of a building over the SW main-line at Southampton. (Images are from my last visit to Northam in 2013 so the site may have changed/been redeveloped since). Definitely no need for a bus on a bridge if the site is urban.

P8061694_2nd_save.jpg

P8061700.jpg

Edited by john new
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On 22/11/2019 at 22:30, Clive Mortimore said:

I had a few minutes in the train room tonight. I have now run all but one Type 3. The one that has not been run is one I failed last year and still have not sorted it. Almost all the Tri-ang body on Lima chassis locos had to be modified, the motor bogie was not swiveling freely. A few strokes with a file soon sorted them out. Most needed their wheels cleaning. A surprise was the one loco that still has a Tri-ang power bogie, with modified side frames, it ran quite nicely. The let down was the scratchbuilt loco  with its Hornby bogies, very poor runner. I am going to have another look at it to see if I can get to to perform better.

Update on this beastie. Well I striped down the motor to its bare components and gave them all a good clean, the commutator and brushes were clogged with old oil. I then spent an interesting 10  minutes on my hands and knees playing find the brush spring. All put back together, I lightly oiled the motor bearings and the axles..................Chuff Chuff I went, then realised I should be saying Brummm Brummm ........the loco ran lovely despite my confusion over the noise it should be making.

 

Singing to their home crowd

 

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For the first time for a couple of weeks I am having an ordinary operating session. So far I have had to do work on two DMUs that have been playing up for some time. One was very poor at starting, a Lima Met Cam, even when coupled to another powered unit. No 'king traction tyres, no wonder. Fitted a couple and whoosh it went. The other was my class 108 conversion from a Hornby 110, all it needed was a wheel clean. 

 

All train movements were slowed down and the volume cranked up when this came on Spotify. 

 

Pity they broke up earlier this year, they are good. 

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