LU_fan Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 What is the best place to put the powered bogies in a two car set of EFE cars? I intend to buy atleast one set when i visit London and run them on club layouts on shows. But these modular layouts always have some "dead" spots, meaning they don't have any current. And as some of these can be relatively long, i was thinking of putting one powered bogie in each cars outer end and somehow linking them together using a DCC decoder. In addition to bridging the problem with the dead spots, i was hoping this solution would give me the best possibility to run them in both directions. Hopefully without one car pushing the other of the track. But is there a better solution? I don't want to make any large modifications to the outside of the train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horizontal Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I have one 4-car set of 1938 stock, and one 4-car set of 1962 each with a Black Beetle motor at the outer end of each DM. I have 'through-wired' both units, which means that they are now permanently coupled, and so I therefore keep them on a 'cassette, and offload them onto the layout as required - As I presume that you are running your unit on layouts that have 'dead-frogs' on the points, I would suggest that this is your best way forward. :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LU_fan Posted June 28, 2014 Author Share Posted June 28, 2014 Black Beetles, huh? Are they good? I could live with having my cars permanently coupled, however i would need to find a transport solution for them. But you think i should do as i was thinking. Would you mind showing how exactly you fixed your cars? It's not just on the points, but also joints between modules and even some places out on the running lines in some cases. Some spots are one car length long, others are smaller, and there are even some that are larger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 I would suggest that one power bogie is enough for a 2 car set, but fit pick ups to all the other bogies, I use wheelsets with one wheel shorted to the axle so the axles connect to the bogie frame, then alternate down the train so 50% of the trailing axles pick up from each rail, together with the usual pick up from both rails on the motor bogie. If you can include wipers on the wheel backs you can increase the pick up further. I can understand dead spots longer than a bogie but longer than a car I would class as unacceptable and needs fixing. Regards Keith PS Mine are DMUs with 3ft wheels, Steam era/Branchlines/DC kits type, may be a bit harder to source suitable tube car wheels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted June 28, 2014 Share Posted June 28, 2014 That's very interesting. I wonder how ordinary locomotives manage to keep going on layouts with dead spots longer than a passenger car length? BTW, here is another solution to your problem. Drop in some US style wheels sets into all the trailing bogies. Those will have metal wheels and axles with only one wheel insulated. Then you can have wire loops resting on the on the axles which will give you power pick up on one side of every wheelset in the train, but only need one power bogie overall. The wheel type would 9.5 mm dia.on 2 mm axles with flush axle ends. I'm not sure without checking, but the original supplied wheels may be the same type, which would save you even more modifications. EDIT ADDITION: Sorry, I seem to have echoed Grovenor's post which occurred unnoticed while I was still writing mine. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LU_fan Posted June 28, 2014 Author Share Posted June 28, 2014 As the layouts are modular the dead spots are almost never in the same place. And with a power supply that very easily disconnects from the layout at various places, they can be longer than a whole cars length. Sometimes whole modules stand without power because someone has accidentally unplugged a cable or something. And the locomotives don't keep moving when they hit those dead spots. At some of the dead spots a simple tap gets it moving again, but sometimes they have to be pushed or pulled several centimeters. Sometimes one dead spot can even short the whole layout it seems. Grovenor: I am only asking this as i don't know how much an EFE car weighs, but wouldn't one single powered bogie risk pushing the other car of the track? If not, i might choose this technique instead. Andy Reichert: I was actually thinking of (maybe) buying improved bogies from Metromodels, which includes new wheelsets of that same diameter. However, i think they might have the same construction with only one wheel per axle insulated. I will have to check that out before i purchase any. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
metmangraham Posted June 29, 2014 Share Posted June 29, 2014 I have two 4-car 1938 sets and an early 1959/62 set (Central Line in all-over silver), all purchased from Metromodels, and all with both powered bogies in the same car (DMs for the 1938 stock or NDM for the 1959/62 stock), and I have never had a problem with dead spots. I use large radius Peco points and the only occasional problem I have is that the trailing powered bogie of the two can ride up a point frog when the set is being pushed from the rear end. This is generally easily cured by ensuring the point alignment with adjacent straight track is really spot on. I also have quite substantial lead weights in all power cars to improve traction. My next aim (problem!) is to link 3-car units to each 4-car unit so that they may be easily coupled and uncoupled. By successive bidding on eBay I have now matched sufficient 3-car sets with each of the 4-car sets (OK, I'll need to change the car numbers eventually). Following advice last year (yes, and still have not plucked up the courage, using the excuse of having too many hobbies!) I plan to fit Kadee couplings to the non-powered DM driving end of the 4-car sets, and to the NDM end of the 3-car sets to produce 7-car sets. I shall need to modify the DM end to permit the coupling. I've tried pushing a 7-car set with the two bogie powered 4-car unit and all three 7-car sets move on the straight, but only the 'silver' set goes successfully around bends without slowing to a stop. This one has Metromodels 'improved' bogies on the non-powered cars of the 4-car set. I reckon that fitting similar bogies on the 3-car additional units for all three trains should mean I can power all around bends. I reasoned that this solution might be preferable to putting a powered bogie in each 3-car unit, which might 'stretch' the 7-car train and cause other problems on curves! Any comments form anyone here? I shall start with the easy one, the 'silver' set! Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LU_fan Posted June 29, 2014 Author Share Posted June 29, 2014 1. Could it be that the layout(s) that you run on are built as one piece? Cause like i said, the club layouts i run on are modular and can have pretty long dead spots. 2. That could proove a problem for me as some of the modules used on the layouts are quite wide, and some switches can't be seen very well from behind the scenes. 3. I would very much like to see a complete 7-car set running as most people only seem to be running 4-car sets at the most. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 As the layouts are modular the dead spots are almost never in the same place. And with a power supply that very easily disconnects from the layout at various places, they can be longer than a whole cars length. Sometimes whole modules stand without power because someone has accidentally unplugged a cable or something. And the locomotives don't keep moving when they hit those dead spots. At some of the dead spots a simple tap gets it moving again, but sometimes they have to be pushed or pulled several centimeters. Sometimes one dead spot can even short the whole layout it seems. Grovenor: I am only asking this as i don't know how much an EFE car weighs, but wouldn't one single powered bogie risk pushing the other car of the track? If not, i might choose this technique instead. Andy Reichert: I was actually thinking of (maybe) buying improved bogies from Metromodels, which includes new wheelsets of that same diameter. However, i think they might have the same construction with only one wheel per axle insulated. I will have to check that out before i purchase any. Not sure how to read your response as pro or against axle pick up. I wasn't proposing axles with one non-insulated wheel as a lesser benefit than having both wheels insulated. Adding pick-ups unnecessarily adds a great deal of friction, with corresponding increase in jerky stopping/starting and a higher minimum slow running speed. Adding loose axle pick ups adds an insignificant amount of friction. A seven car set would require 56 wheel wipers to receive power on all wheels. That's about 10 times the friction of adding wipers to an 0-6-0 steam loco. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 This is what I did for mine http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46417-efe-1938-london-underground-tube-trains/?hl=1938 whilst you can run 1 tenshodo per 2 cars, I think a 2 car set is better with 2 power bogies, and a 4 car better with 3, and I prefer to have the power bogie at the 'inner' end of a coach so that it gets a bit of extra tractive weight from its neighbour. The EFE coach bodies are plastic, with a plastic interior, and the diecast floor is relatively thin, so they don't weigh all that much. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I have 2 EFE 4 car units both with a Black Beetle motor boge it tend to the inner end of the driving cars. I do not find this arrangement ideal as there can be some poor running if one car stalls etc. I have another set to motorise and I am planning to fit 2 motor bogies in the UMDM car with a single DCC chip as I think this arrangement will work better. If you plan using DCC and Tenshodo spuds avoid using a separate chip for each spud as the spuds just don't work are all well. I speak from bitter exoerience. Give me Black Beetle any day! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LU_fan Posted June 30, 2014 Author Share Posted June 30, 2014 Not sure how to read your response as pro or against axle pick up. I wasn't proposing axles with one non-insulated wheel as a lesser benefit than having both wheels insulated. Adding pick-ups unnecessarily adds a great deal of friction, with corresponding increase in jerky stopping/starting and a higher minimum slow running speed. Adding loose axle pick ups adds an insignificant amount of friction. A seven car set would require 56 wheel wipers to receive power on all wheels. That's about 10 times the friction of adding wipers to an 0-6-0 steam loco. Andy I am pro extra pick up, as long as it doesn't add unneeded and unwanted friction. I guess i misunderstood you since most of your post was about the wheels. This is what I did for mine http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46417-efe-1938-london-underground-tube-trains/?hl=1938 whilst you can run 1 tenshodo per 2 cars, I think a 2 car set is better with 2 power bogies, and a 4 car better with 3, and I prefer to have the power bogie at the 'inner' end of a coach so that it gets a bit of extra tractive weight from its neighbour. The EFE coach bodies are plastic, with a plastic interior, and the diecast floor is relatively thin, so they don't weigh all that much. Jon Thanks for the link! I might use some of the techniques you posted there, most likely the one with the extra pick ups. However, you say that having the two powered bogies next to each other adds "extra tractive weight" and as i have no experience with anything other than RTR models, how exactly does the distance between the bogies change the traction in a two car train? As for the weight, i might add some later on if i'm not happy with the outcome. I have 2 EFE 4 car units both with a Black Beetle motor boge it tend to the inner end of the driving cars. I do not find this arrangement ideal as there can be some poor running if one car stalls etc. I have another set to motorise and I am planning to fit 2 motor bogies in the UMDM car with a single DCC chip as I think this arrangement will work better. If you plan using DCC and Tenshodo spuds avoid using a separate chip for each spud as the spuds just don't work are all well. I speak from bitter exoerience. Give me Black Beetle any day! XF Well, from the overall look of things right now i might go with Tenshodos, and i was infact thinking of using a single DCC chip for both bogies, as i think i mentioned before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
metmangraham Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 1. Could it be that the layout(s) that you run on are built as one piece? Cause like i said, the club layouts i run on are modular and can have pretty long dead spots. 2. That could proove a problem for me as some of the modules used on the layouts are quite wide, and some switches can't be seen very well from behind the scenes. 3. I would very much like to see a complete 7-car set running as most people only seem to be running 4-car sets at the most. You have a good point here. My layout is permanently set up in the roof space, formerly my study in my working days. I, too, would love to see one of my 7-car sets running all joined up and successfully negotiating points, etc.! Perhaps I'm spoilt in that my 4-car sets all run so well and this has encouraged me into a false sense of confidence. Heaven will be an operational 7-car set, which I can uncouple and couple without too much hassle.... We shall see. The task to fit the Kadees on the 1959/62 cars is the 'job after next'. Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted July 2, 2014 Share Posted July 2, 2014 You have a good point here. My layout is permanently set up in the roof space, formerly my study in my working days. I, too, would love to see one of my 7-car sets running all joined up and successfully negotiating points, etc.! Perhaps I'm spoilt in that my 4-car sets all run so well and this has encouraged me into a false sense of confidence. Heaven will be an operational 7-car set, which I can uncouple and couple without too much hassle.... We shall see. The task to fit the Kadees on the 1959/62 cars is the 'job after next'. Graham One point that isn't usually known when comparing the use of Kadees and thee more to scale Sergents, is that coupled Sergents will push without the couplers flexing/kinking at the joint. The force from the coupler pivot on the pushing car is directly transmitted to the coupler pivot on the pushed car. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LU_fan Posted July 2, 2014 Author Share Posted July 2, 2014 Not to stray off topic, but as i have got some options to think about i will ask anyway: the Sergent couplers, are they made from real metal or do they just look very realistic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 The standard couplers EC, EN, and shelf, are die cast, so pretty tough. I would think that's the same construction as Kadees but I have no inside knowledge on the Kadees. You can pretty much see from the end shape why the scale couplers lock in a straight line when joined. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LU_fan Posted July 4, 2014 Author Share Posted July 4, 2014 Looks like i've got a few things to think about when it comes to couplers aswell then. Like metmangraham i would like to be able to easily couple and uncouple multiple two car sets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Reichert Posted July 4, 2014 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Looks like i've got a few things to think about when it comes to couplers aswell then. Like metmangraham i would like to be able to easily couple and uncouple multiple two car sets. Uncoupling Sergents requires a magnetic wand waved above and simultaneous pulling away, whereas Kadees require either the traditional bamboo skewer dropped vertically down between the cars, or a magnet ramp in the track. Currently there is not a commercial Sergent track ramp uncoupler. Kadees will recouple more easily if not so well aligned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LU_fan Posted July 6, 2014 Author Share Posted July 6, 2014 Hm... Well, there are quite a few curves on the layouts, so that's a plus for the Kadees. But as the Sergents are smaller, and i assume easier to hide, that's one for them. As both methods of uncoupling seem pretty easy (i bet the Sergents are harder to uncouple than i think), so that's a draw. I do have a box of Fleischmann Profi couplers at home, but they need a bit of clearance under the train to fit and in order to not get caught on anything, due to the uncoupling mechanism. However, if they work it would save me some money. Not a lot, but some. But they were originally meant for other projects. Hm... Oh well, i've still got some time to think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I have two SPUDs in the NDM car interconnected. I also have pickups on all bogies in the non-powered cars, so never have any problems with dead spots. It does mean creating conducting couplings, I use 2.54mm/0.1in plug and socket connectors so that I can still separate the cars if necessary. Remember that the individual cars in the '38 amd '59 stock 4 or 3 car sets were permanently coupled together. So you may not need any uncoupling mechanism at all if you are restricting yourself to 3 or 4 car set trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LU_fan Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 Not 3 or 4 car trains, 2 or 4 car trains. The Isle of Wight sets i am looking at are just 2 cars per set. That's why i'd like to be able to couple and uncouple them. They will however be permanently coupled to their respective mates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted July 9, 2014 Share Posted July 9, 2014 Not 3 or 4 car trains, 2 or 4 car trains. The Isle of Wight sets i am looking at are just 2 cars per set. That's why i'd like to be able to couple and uncouple them. They will however be permanently coupled to their respective mates. Then to me it's a no brainer, you put 1 SPUD in each 2 car set as one SPUD is sufficient for a 2 car set. I'd put the SPUD at the guard's end or one of the DMs. With 1 SPUD per 2 car set you can run each set as separate units independent of each other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LU_fan Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 It may be a no brainer to you, but this is all new to me. Every powered vehicle i've ever owned have been locomotives and railcars with only two bogies, both powered. I have no experience at all modifying vehicles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted July 10, 2014 Share Posted July 10, 2014 A friend of mind had a 4 car EFE set with a single Spud and chip running really well last week. The key is to ensure that all the other coaches a very free running using Metromodels bogies XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LU_fan Posted July 10, 2014 Author Share Posted July 10, 2014 Yeah, i was planning to replace the original bogies with Metromodels ones. So if it worked for a four car train, a single Spud is more than enough for a two car train it sounds like. I've still got some time to think, and i've got a lot of suggestions. I'll let you know my final decision when i've made it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.