Oh no, not another Black 5!

[31A]

I've had a Hornby Black 5 for several years, and a Brassmasters detailing kit for some time as well, but Tim Shackleton's article in the July 'Hornby magazine' spurred me on to make a start on this project.  In line with the ethos of the article, I won't be using all the bits provided, but just those which add useful improvements without too much drastic alteration; also, I've arrived at my own solutions in some cases where I think these are easier, or produce a more robust result.

 

I started with the tender, and not being too well versed in LMS matters, thanks to Ronnie S and Horsetan for answering my queries so far.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/87332-lms-4000-gallon-tender-queries/

 

If I drop any other howlers from ignorance of Crewe matters on the way, please let me know!

 

Mindful of the comments made regarding the spurious 'valence' on the Hornby LMS tender, I obtained a Bachmann tender underframe (intended for a Jubilee) and set about fitting it to the Hornby 'top'.  In fact this went quite well; I just needed to carve away some plastic from the underframe's 'floor' at the front corners behind the steps, and deepen the rebate at the rear slightly.  I made a hole towards the rear corresponding with the retaining hook on the Hornby body and made a little brass bracket to fit inside this and engage with said hook.  At the front, a hole had to be made to correspond with the location of the self tapping retaining screw; this could then be used to attach the body to the new underframe, with a big fibre washer under the screw head.

 

 

The result looks pretty good so far, and in the circumstances I didn't think it worth replacing the spring / axlebox detail with the whitemetal castings from the kit.  However of course the Hornby brake detail has now been lost, as has the tender pick up facility.

 

As I think it is important to maximise points of current collection, I set about adding pick ups to the tender.  I came up with the arrangement  below.

 

 

Luckily, the wires from the circuit board to the 'live' drawbar were generous on this loco, and were long enough to extend to tags which formed screwed terminals on the new tender circuit board.  While I was at it, I also devised a new drawbar pivot for the tender; a short countersunk 8BA bolt through a piece of plastikard, welded above the rectangular hole at the front of the tender underframe.  A suitable piece of brass tube slipped over the bolt, then a nut retains the drawbar in place making a secure coupling, which avoids the risk of stressing the electrical connections.  It also couples the loco and tender more closely together, which as can be seen in the top picture, results in an instant improvement to the appearance of the loco (the same goes for almost any RTR loco).  To accommodate the sharpest bends on my layout, I had to remove the metal front buffers from the tender underframe (these are almost invisible when coupled anyway), and trim back the corners of the loco's fall plate.

 

Day two, and detailing of the tender continued.  I followed the advice of Brassmaster's instructions, and used the new tender front overlay as a template to open out the front of the tender behind the coal doors.  Although I didn't think it worth modelling the hopper shape of the bunker (the necessary parts would have been very strange shapes!), I did have a go at making a representation of the fire iron tunnel from laminations of black 60 thou plastikard.  On the back of the tender, I used the lifting lugs from the Brassmasters kit, but added the angle iron around the top of the tender from 1mm strips of 5 thou plastikard, thinking it would be easier to bond this to the tender with solvent rather than trying to attach the etching provided.  I had previously cleaned the rivets off the the rear of the tender (this being a welded tender), and used 1mm brass strip to make the rear lamp irons.  I passed these through holes drilled in the tender back, and folded the strip up inside to give enough material for firm attachment.  I had previously chemically blackened them.

 

Tender now substantially complete; lacking vac pipe at the moment, and jury still out about the brake hangers moulded as part of the side frames.  At this point, I have given the tender back a coat of Humbrol satin black to gauge the success of removing the rivet detail, and carved the moulded coal load roughly to fit temporarily into the bunker.  I don't think it's worth the bother of replacing the steps on the back of the tender.

 

 

 

[Horsetan]

.... I didn't think it worth modelling the hopper shape of the bunker (the necessary parts would have been very strange shapes!),....

 

I did (for the GBL clone), and yes, it is a very strange shape to draw out on a sheet of plasticard.

[31A]

Thanks, Horsetan - not just me then!  I think the customary cop out of a well loaded tender will be easier in due course than attempting to model the inside of the bunker.

 

Today has seen some progress, and much prevarication.

 

I started well, with the etched front frames / motion bracket parts.  I was looking forward to this stage, as to my mind one of the biggest failings of the Hornby Black 5 (and some other RTR locos) is the amount of daylight you can see where the frames ought to be - in this case, typically from a 'rear three quarters' view where you can see right through the loco behind the cylinders.  I decided to divide each of these parts into two, attaching the front frames to the loco body and the remainder to the chassis block.  I briefly contemplated soldering these to a kind of stretcher so that I could bolt them to the underneath of the chassis, but my Black 5 hadn't been greased up as liberally as some RTR models are, and I was able to glue them to the block with Evostik.  Nevertheless, the 'winkling' referred to in the instructions was 'interesting', to get the motion brackets to line up properly with the slide bars.

 

 

Whilst I had the loco dismantled, I took a hacksaw to the bogie and cut it back to level with the guard irons, then tidied up the front end a bit with files.  I'm sure a Comet or similar etched bogie would look better, but my plan was for this to be a fairly quick job to produce a reasonable looking 'layout' engine, rather than a highly detailed specimen.  Anyway, the result of the hacksawing can just be seen in the above photo, the cut area having already been painted matt black.

 

The above picture also shows that I've filled the cut outs in the underneath of the cylinders.  This doesn't look too pretty (and there's some more tidying up that could be done), but in reality this area is hardly visible after you've fitted the cylinder fronts.  I considered leaving the cut outs, but decided that filling them in would make it easier to attach the drain cocks when I get to that stage.

 

After that it was 'just' a case of adding the details.  It wasn't always easy to identify what the pieces of whitemetal were supposed to represent; the instructions include a list and a few photos, but I felt better diagrams might be helpful.  I was also confused by the generous provision of spare items; hence I had 4 safety valves, and 4 gravity lubricators.  I guessed I only needed 2 safety valves, but spent some time trying to work out where 4 lubricators were supposed to go!

 

For such commonplace locos, I was surprised to find I had relatively few pictures of the real thing to hand which showed such details as lubricators, steam lance fittings and injectors.

 

I found this thread one of the most useful sources of information:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/19802-detailing-a-Hornby-black-5/

 

as well as MRJs 25. 138 and 200 (albeit that one's about an 8F); coincidentally the latest Model Rail arrived today with an article by George Dent detailing an 8F as a War department engine, and that was useful, too.

 

[RonnieS]

A project well done!

 

Whilst I had the loco dismantled, I took a hacksaw to the bogie and cut it back to level with the guard irons, then tidied up the front end a bit with files.  I'm sure a Comet or similar etched bogie would look better, but my plan was for this to be a fairly quick job to produce a reasonable looking 'layout' engine, rather than a highly detailed specimen.  Anyway, the result of the hacksawing can just be seen in the above photo, the cut area having already been painted matt black.

 

 

you will find you need a bit of extra weight on the bogie or it will let you down! Hornby black 5 front bogie

 

 

 

 

[31A]

Thank you, Ronnie!  Looking at your example in the linked thread, yes I could file it back a bit further to good advantage.  I did try and suggest the ends of the frames as you can perhaps see in my picture, but didn't go back very far in between.  I may have another go tomorrow; I also need to order some Alan Gibson bogie wheels.

[31A]

Yesterday was mainly spent with a hacksaw and big files, further reducing the front of the bogie as per RonnieS's modification.

 

 

This certainly makes a big improvement visually to the front end of the loco.  At first I didn't think I'd need to follow Ronnie's advice regarding additional weight for the bogie; after all, there seemed to be plenty of metal left.  However on test, the bogie now consistently went to one side or other rather than taking the straight route through double slips.  This had never been a problem with this loco before, but sure enough, adding some lead above the bogie between the pivot and the front axle made all the difference and it once again behaved itself!

 

After that, it was mainly a case of details for the loco.  In truth, I probably left off more than I put on!

 

I replaced the safety valves with the Brassmasters castings, and used the cylinder fronts and relief valves.

 

Sadly one of the drain cock castings was imperfectly formed, so I made my own using copper wire in much the same way as George Dent did for his WD 8F in 'Model Rail', using the castings as patterns:

 

 

This also had the benefit that I was able to leave generous 'tails' to glue into holes in the undersides of the cylinders, to make a more robust job.

 

I also added the lifting ring eyes to the insides of the front frames, and drilled the holes through, and to be honest, that's probably about all I'm going to do.

 

I tried to fit the gravity lubricators at the front of the smokebox, but they were so small I couldn't hold them in place long enough to get glue behind them!  I thought long and hard about the injectors, but decided I couldn't work out how the big one was supposed to be mounted or where the plumbing should run, so I've left it off altogether for now.  The small one is almost completely hidden behind the cab step.  Similarly with the smoke box steam lance fitting, I decided this would be fiddly to fit and potentially potentially vulnerable when the loco is handled, so I've left it off.  I've not fitted the AWS equipment; I'm not sure when it would have been fitted to the real engine, but bearing in mind that it has the early BR emblem on the tender, and my layout is set c. 1960, on balance I've decided to leave that off for now as well.  I suppose a benefit of a project like this is that you can always return to it later and add further bits if so inclined.

 

Here's a couple of pictures of the engine with the above bits fitted, but not yet painted:

 

 

 

At this point, I've also added the Hornby front steps and loco brake rigging, but not yet the sand pipes.  it remains to provide a crew - I've identified a Peter Goss figure for a driver, and a Monty's Models fireman and these await painting, and also coal for the tender.  Then a modest amount of weathering etc. can be applied.

 

I'm undecided at the moment whether to add the buffer footsteps provided in the kit, make them from Plastikard (which would allow a stronger bond), or send for some LMS buffers, e.g. from Comet.

 

 I have however sent for a set of Alan Gibson bogie wheels, and also the Mainly Trains tender brake gear etch which should allow me to improve on the moulded hangers of the Bachmann underframe.

 

For the moment though, my main objectives have been achieved.  These were, to reduce the 'see through' effect underneath the front of the engine, improve the appearance of the tender underframe, improve the front end aspect by reducing the 'lump' at the front of the bogie, and to reduce the gap between engine and tender.

[RonnieS]

Yesterday was mainly spent with a hacksaw and big files, further reducing the front of the bogie as per RonnieS's modification.

 

P1000415.JPG

 

This certainly makes a big improvement visually to the front end of the loco.  At first I didn't think I'd need to follow Ronnie's advice regarding additional weight for the bogie; after all, there seemed to be plenty of metal left.  However on test, the bogie now consistently went to one side or other rather than taking the straight route through double slips.  This had never been a problem with this loco before, but sure enough, adding some lead above the bogie between the pivot and the front axle made all the difference and it once again behaved itself!

 

After that, it was mainly a case of details for the loco.  In truth, I probably left off more than I put on!

 

I replaced the safety valves with the Brassmasters castings, and used the cylinder fronts and relief valves.

 

Sadly one of the drain cock castings was imperfectly formed, so I made my own using copper wire in much the same way as George Dent did for his WD 8F in 'Model Rail', using the castings as patterns:

 

P1000416.JPG

 

This also had the benefit that I was able to leave generous 'tails' to glue into holes in the undersides of the cylinders, to make a more robust job.

 

I also added the lifting ring eyes to the insides of the front frames, and drilled the holes through, and to be honest, that's probably about all I'm going to do.

 

I tried to fit the gravity lubricators at the front of the smokebox, but they were so small I couldn't hold them in place long enough to get glue behind them!  I thought long and hard about the injectors, but decided I couldn't work out how the big one was supposed to be mounted or where the plumbing should run, so I've left it off altogether for now.  The small one is almost completely hidden behind the cab step.  Similarly with the smoke box steam lance fitting, I decided this would be fiddly to fit and potentially potentially vulnerable when the loco is handled, so I've left it off.  I've not fitted the AWS equipment; I'm not sure when it would have been fitted to the real engine, but bearing in mind that it has the early BR emblem on the tender, and my layout is set c. 1960, on balance I've decided to leave that off for now as well.  I suppose a benefit of a project like this is that you can always return to it later and add further bits if so inclined.

 

Here's a couple of pictures of the engine with the above bits fitted, but not yet painted:

 

P1000421.JPG

 

P1000422.JPG

 

At this point, I've also added the Hornby front steps and loco brake rigging, but not yet the sand pipes.  it remains to provide a crew - I've identified a Peter Goss figure for a driver, and a Monty's Models fireman and these await painting, and also coal for the tender.  Then a modest amount of weathering etc. can be applied.

 

I'm undecided at the moment whether to add the buffer footsteps provided in the kit, make them from Plastikard (which would allow a stronger bond), or send for some LMS buffers, e.g. from Comet.

 

 I have however sent for a set of Alan Gibson bogie wheels, and also the Mainly Trains tender brake gear etch which should allow me to improve on the moulded hangers of the Bachmann underframe.

 

For the moment though, my main objectives have been achieved.  These were, to reduce the 'see through' effect underneath the front of the engine, improve the appearance of the tender underframe, improve the front end aspect by reducing the 'lump' at the front of the bogie, and to reduce the gap between engine and tender.

Not all Black fives had AWS so you are probably on a safe bet. Tender changes were legion so that too.  At random, 45006 had 8 boiler changes, 9 tender changes, never got AWS (but did get a speedo) and by 1952 had the frames from 45224! Now; what is the origin of the ply container on the conflat please?

[31A]

Hi Ronnie,

 

Thanks for the reassurances above re. Black 5s.  I did manage to find a picture of 44668 on line taken in 1964:

 

http://www.rwrightrr.com/photos/pv.asp?pid=1698

 

which seems to show no AWS (and, I believe, a different type of tender); in fact I found pictures published of various locos right up to 1968 which hadn't been fitted.  I'm happy to go with the 'tender swap' theory!

 

Actually the container isn't a ply one, although the picture does make it look like one; I believe it is one of the earliest containers released by Airfix when they introduced the GW Conflat back in the 1970s, also issued at that time in BR livery.  It has vertical planking and presumably represents an earlier / different type of container to the more common Bachmann ones also visible in the picture.  I've picked up a couple recently at swap meets, and it awaits chaining down (as do a lot of my containers) - for the purposes of the picture, the chains have already been taken off prior to unloading further down the yard!  Hopefully this is a bit clearer, and shows it could do with some weathering as well:

 

[edward66]

The title of this thread reminds me of my locospotting days many years ago when the groans and "not another black five"s [or Mickeys as we called them] were heard.

What an excellent locomotive they were though despite their oh nos from spotters! They looked just right too apart from the Caprotti geared ones with huge hunched steam pipes and the ones with Ivatt's high running plate and abbreviated cab sides.

 

Edward

[Horsetan]

Thanks, Horsetan - not just me then!  I think the customary cop out of a well loaded tender will be easier in due course than attempting to model the inside of the bunker.....

Loaded is always going to be easier, but the GBL clone effort looked so poor that I thought it better to saw the whole thing out and try to make a proper bunker. 20thou black plasticard/styrene cuts quite easily.

[31A]

Loaded is always going to be easier, but the GBL clone effort looked so poor that I thought it better to saw the whole thing out and try to make a proper bunker. 20thou black plasticard/styrene cuts quite easily.

You are of course quite right, and you may yet convince me to have a go!  When I started this project I thought it would be completed relatively quickly, but one thing seems to be leading to another.

 

One thing that led to another today was the arrival of the Alan Gibson bogie wheels, thanks to Mainly Trains for their very prompt service.

 

Having fitted the front steps, I was experiencing occasional derailments with the original bogie wheels fitted, due to these hitting the steps on the sharpest curves (curved sides of Peco double slips).  I was hopeful that the Gibson wheels might cure this, due to their treads being slightly narrower, but in fact they made it worse due to the flanges being shallower, hence an increased tendency for the wheels to climb over the rails when they contacted the front steps on curves.  On one test run, this caused such a spectacular derailment that one set of neatly-soldered cylinder drain cocks was reduced to a tangled wreck.

 

I didn't want to remove the front steps as I think these significantly affect the appearance of the engine, and was reluctant to go back to the Hornby wheels if it could be avoided.

 

Thankfully, Ben Alder had already very kindly pointed me in the direction of this topic from a few years ago in his blog, where he had dealt with this kind of problem, and I decided something similar was needed:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/62/entry-3478-kyleskus-black-fives/

 

As a first stab, I found played around with some coil springs until I found a suitable one, and came up with this arrangement:

 

 

For testing purposes, the bottom of the spring is temporarily clamped under a nut, on a 10 BA bolt passed through the centre of the bogie pivot.  When the bogie is reattached to the loco, the other end of the spring locates on the white plastikard square glued to the underneath of the chassis block.  The spring doesn't exert much pressure, but it is sufficient to have a centring effect on the bogie, which is actually sufficient to stop the bogie wheels hitting the front steps.

 

However, by exerting upward pressure on the front of the loco, adhesion was significantly impaired.  In order to restore some tractive effort, I reduced the length of the spring one coil at a time, but there's a limit to how much of this can be done before it ceases to function as intended.  Luckily, the inside of the smokebox is an empty void so I coiled a strip of lead sheet into a roughly cylindrical block which could be wedged into the space.

 

To make the arrangement a bit more permanent, I soldered the spring (not sure what it was made of, but it soldered!) onto a piece of brass with a hole drilled through it, so that it could be attached properly to the bogie, and made the plastikard lug on the chassis twice as thick so there was no risk of the spring becoming dislocated.

 

While awaiting the bogie wheels, I've painted a couple of crew figures for the loco, and made a start on weathering .... more on this later!

[coachmann]

Looking good and I'm glad to see you have fitted Gibson bevel rim bogie wheels......Makes all the difference to the front end appearance. The etched front bufferbeam would also make a difference but don't forget to add the additional segments to the valence adjacent to the beam....

 

 

[31A]

Looking good and I'm glad to see you have fitted Gibson bevel rim bogie wheels......Makes all the difference to the front end appearance. The etched front bufferbeam would also make a difference but don't forget to add the additional segments to the valence adjacent to the beam....

 

WEB black 5.jpg

Thanks, Coachmann - I agree, the wheels are a big improvement and I would have been disappointed if I had had to go back to the Hornby ones to achieve reliability.

 

I was aware of the 'issues' around the buffer beam depth and buffer height, but as I said, I was hoping this would be a quick project, and I was expecting to leave that area alone.  Having said that, I measured the etched buffer beam which comes with the Brassmasters set of parts, but found its dimensions matched those of the Hornby one, i.e. 6mm, deep so I wasn't intending to use it.  I think it is intended to be a 'riveted' replacement for a Hornby model which has a smooth buffer beam, but mine already has rivets on it.

 

I may still replace the front buffers however, as I think the Hornby ones leave something to be desired on this model and it is worth fitting better ones, as your picture shows.

[coachmann]

When I altered the first Black 5 I deepened the bufferbeam with plastikard then fitted segments behind it and lined them out. The second Black 5 used a Brassmasters detailing kit and I am pretty sure the etched bufferbeam was as deep as the one I altered. They need to be deeper so that the buffers shanks can be positioned lower putting them in line with those on the Tender. It doesn't take such a lot to make the Black 5 into a pretty good model and it is a shame Hornby don't do this themselves as an upgrade (with a new Tender of course).

[Horsetan]

When I altered the first Black 5 I deepened the bufferbeam with plastikard then fitted segments behind it and lined them out. The second Black 5 used a Brassmasters detailing kit and I am pretty sure the etched bufferbeam was as deep as the one I altered....

Compared to the GBL clone of the Hornby model, the Brassmasters beam etch is noticeably deeper.

[31A]

Compared to the GBL clone of the Hornby model, the Brassmasters beam etch is noticeably deeper.

 

That may well be so - perhaps the GBL clone isn't such a clone after all!

 

 

I had previously measured the loco and etched buffer beam with a ruler and Mk 1 eyeball and concluded they were the same, but this afternoon I used my new digital calipers to measure them and obtained a reading of 6.37mm in each case.  In the case of the loco this distance was measured from top of running plate to underside of buffer beam; the etched beam incorporates an etched ledge at the top which I presume is intended to represent the overhang of the running plate, i.e. you should remove all detail from the Hornby one and attach the new one with its top edge flush with the top of the running plate.

 

I do understand the point Coachmann is making, and in fact read his thread about Black 5s at the time he originally posted it, but intended my conversion to be a quick project and didn't intend going to the lengths of sorting out the buffer heights.

 

As regards the shortcomings of the tender, yes I agree an upgrade would be welcome, even if just of the tender.  When thinking about modelling the hopper shape of the coal bunker, the fact that the interior of the coal space on the model doesn't represent the 'turn in' of the sides means that even if you do model the hopper shape, the tops of the sides will still look wrong on the inside.  Hence I am leaning more towards the 'full load of coal' option, which is a shame as I have gone to the trouble of opening out the inside of the area behind the coal doors.  I did actually wonder whether it would be better to obtain a complete Bachmann LMS tender rather than just the underframe, but was deterred by the prospect of having to match the BR mixed traffic lining on the loco, which Hornby have done very well (I presume Bachmann have never produced their version in BR mixed traffic livery?).  I don't possess a Bachmann LMS tender to compare, so I don't know whether they have modelled the insides of the side sheets any better than Hornby have, anyway?

 

Not much more progress to report at the moment, but the same package from Mainly Trains that delivered the bogie wheels also included one of their etches for tender brake gear, so that will probably be the next instalment.

[26power]

GBL?

[31A]

Have a look over here:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69535-great-british-locomotives/page-59&do=findComment&comment=1505694

 

Don't worry, I didn't realise what they were on about till a couple of days ago, either!

[Horsetan]

That may well be so - perhaps the GBL clone isn't such a clone after all!

 

P1000428.JPG

 

I had previously measured the loco and etched buffer beam with a ruler and Mk 1 eyeball and concluded they were the same, but this afternoon I used my new digital calipers to measure them and obtained a reading of 6.37mm in each case.  In the case of the loco this distance was measured from top of running plate to underside of buffer beam; the etched beam incorporates an etched ledge at the top which I presume is intended to represent the overhang of the running plate, i.e. you should remove all detail from the Hornby one and attach the new one with its top edge flush with the top of the running plate.

 

I do understand the point Coachmann is making....

 

That's interesting. What is different is the point at which the curve-in occurs - on the etch, it's lower down than on the Hornby moulding.

[31A]

Yes.  Must admit I hadn't noticed that.  One thing I did notice though, is that mine is brass whereas yours looks as if it's nickel silver, as do others that I've seen in magazine articles etc. - perhaps there's more than one version?

[Horsetan]

.... One thing I did notice though, is that mine is brass whereas yours looks as if it's nickel silver, as do others that I've seen in magazine articles etc. - perhaps there's more than one version?

 

The sample I have is definitely nickel-silver.

[RonnieS]

The sample I have is definitely nickel-silver.

 

Yes.  Must admit I hadn't noticed that.  One thing I did notice though, is that mine is brass whereas yours looks as if it's nickel silver, as do others that I've seen in magazine articles etc. - perhaps there's more than one version?

Some are Brass. Some are N/S. Yes I am on another 2!

 

[Horsetan]

They probably switched to brass at some point, as the material was cheaper.

[knobhead]

They probably switched to brass at some point, as the material was cheaper.

 

 

It just wouldn't seem right if Brassmasters used any other material!

[31A]

It just wouldn't seem right if Brassmasters used any other material!

 

Similar thoughts occurred to me and I was quite surprised to see some people had N/S versions!