British Modular System - the initial ideas and debates

[298]

Nobody has mentioned building one with OHLE yet...

I build modules to get away from modelling OHLE...

[roundhouse]

I build modules to get away from modelling OHLE...

Took me a few seconds to get your post, then the penny dropped!!!

[PaulRhB]

The only thing with UK OHLE is it tends to see big block trains and mainline for goods which would mean some BIG stations, Medium size stations are more likely as individual modules unless several clubs get involved. You could include it in a setup but you'd need some big FY's and quite a lot of plain running between towns to do them justice. The S&D crossing the West of England or similar type lines around the country offer shorter trains and more manageable size stations

[Glorious NSE]

Good Grief! This is a thread about proposing a module standard. for modelling GB trains., not for modelling 20% of GB trains.

 

The UK has never had anywhere near 80% electrification.

 

As of 2010 only about 25% of route miles in the UK are electrified, and I think less than 20% is via OHLE - so it's a minority. A substantial one, but a minority.

 

Edit that - misread the figures - about 30% electrified, about 20% OHLE.

 

Much of that is relatively recent too, so OHLE fitted modules would be of much less use to folk representing older era's - the percentage of OHLE in 1960 would have been relatively tiny (I suspect in the region of 1% or less) and that would include different, incompatible, electrification systems for instance.

 

Just as an experiment Andy - have a dig through the UK modelling section on here - have a look and see how well represented layouts with OHLE are to take a gauge of how likely it is that there will be high demand.

 

Given that modules don't need OHLE to function as modules.

Given that the majority of folk will not need OHLE.

Given that there's absolutely zero point in just one person building a module with OHLE (where would his/her trains go?)

Given that OHLE on modules is likely to be harder to spec than OHLE on a conventional layout.

Given that the folk likely to want OHLE will more likely be the folk that can work out how to install OHLE than the rest of us.

 

My suggestion would be that it seems a perfectly reasonable plan to not have a standard for OHLE from the get-go - but let standards be decided as an overlay (so to speak) by interested parties themselves at some point in the future if anyone decides it's something they want to do.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Glorious NSE

[Talltim]

 

No-one has mentioned the OHLE aspects yet.

 

Andy

What voltage are you proposing for the standard?

Edited July 11, 2014 by Talltim

[Talltim]

The UK has never had anywhere near 80% electrification.

 

As of 2010 only about 25% of route miles in the UK are electrified, and I think less than 20% is via OHLE - so it's a minority. A substantial one, but a minority.

 

Much of that is relatively recent too, so OHLE fitted modules would be of much less use to folk representing older era's - the percentage of OHLE in 1960 would have been relatively tiny (I suspect in the region of 1% or less) and that would include different, incompatible, electrification systems for instance.

 

Just as an experiment Andy - have a dig through the UK modelling section on here - have a look and see how well represented layouts with OHLE are to take a gauge of how likely it is that there will be high demand.

 

Given that modules don't need OHLE to function as modules.

Given that the majority of folk will not need OHLE.

Given that there's absolutely zero point in just one person building a module with OHLE (where would his/her trains go?)

Given that OHLE on modules is likely to be harder to spec than OHLE on a conventional layout.

Given that the folk likely to want OHLE will more likely be the folk that can work out how to install OHLE than the rest of us.

 

My suggestion would be that it seems a perfectly reasonable plan to not have a standard for OHLE from the get-go - but let standards be decided as an overlay (so to speak) by interested parties themselves at some point in the future if anyone decides it's something they want to do.

I wonder what proportion of train services run are electric? Although quite a lot will be powered from the stabiliser rail rather than OHLE, I bet its far more than 20%

[Talltim]

I build modules to get away from modelling OHLE...

Damn. I've been waiting for you to build an interuban terminal RR interchange module.

[PaulRhB]

What voltage are you proposing for the standard?

25,000Mv

[Andy Reichert]

The UK has never had anywhere near 80% electrification.

 

As of 2010 only about 25% of route miles in the UK are electrified, and I think less than 20% is via OHLE - so it's a minority. A substantial one, but a minority.

 

Much of that is relatively recent too, so OHLE fitted modules would be of much less use to folk representing older era's - the percentage of OHLE in 1960 would have been relatively tiny (I suspect in the region of 1% or less) and that would include different, incompatible, electrification systems for instance.

 

Just as an experiment Andy - have a dig through the UK modelling section on here - have a look and see how well represented layouts with OHLE are to take a gauge of how likely it is that there will be high demand.

 

Given that modules don't need OHLE to function as modules.

Given that the majority of folk will not need OHLE.

Given that there's absolutely zero point in just one person building a module with OHLE (where would his/her trains go?)

Given that OHLE on modules is likely to be harder to spec than OHLE on a conventional layout.

Given that the folk likely to want OHLE will more likely be the folk that can work out how to install OHLE than the rest of us.

 

My suggestion would be that it seems a perfectly reasonable plan to not have a standard for OHLE from the get-go - but let standards be decided as an overlay (so to speak) by interested parties themselves at some point in the future if anyone decides it's something they want to do.

 

I was thinking more along the lines that more than 80% of GB railway passengers are carried on lines having OHLE or (mainly in the south) 3rd rail. Which is also so far missing from the discussion. Any of the members of the public seeing set ups that completely exclude such highly visible effects, would likely think that module modellers were just another bunch of nostalgic mis-representers of railways past, or worse, possibly actually incapable of modeling what was in front of their faces.

 

Andy

Edited July 11, 2014 by Andy Reichert

[Stubby47]

I wonder what proportion of train services run are electric? Although quite a lot will be powered from the stabiliser rail rather than OHLE, I bet its far more than 20%

 

I hope all of the modules use electric - live steam would be interesting though...

[Andy Reichert]

A think the risk of keeping the difficult stuff out of a GB module standard, is that it will merely end up as a poor man's copy of the USA oriented freight forwarding operations model, but just with slightly different trains/colours.

[PaulRhB]

As Martyn said though OHLE wasn't common off the East & West coast mainline until the last twenty years. Adding third rail doesn't require any standard as it's just going to stop at the board edge and I've not seen any working contact shoes in 4mm

OHLE is possible on a module though you'd have to either restrain the pantograph with wire to keep it just below if it was to run freely onto non OHLE modules. I wouldn't like to say how long it would last though if you tried manual uncoupling beneath it with strangers

Again don't get bogged down in fine detail we had none of these issues with the US one and we are already discussing adapting the US system to work as a realistic timetable in the Ops thread

[Clive Mortimore]

No-one has mentioned the OHLE aspects yet.

 

Andy

Hi Andy

 

You seem to be quite active on this topic, are you going to build a module and fly it over to the UK to join in?

 

As for Overhead Line Equipment (OLE) even the real railways have several standards. There are 6 distinct types between Liverpool Street and Colchester and that is only 50 miles.

 

I am looking forward to joining in with a single line passing loop station.

[Clive Mortimore]

A think the risk of keeping the difficult stuff out of a GB module standard, is that it will merely end up as a poor man's copy of the USA oriented freight forwarding operations model, but just with slightly different trains/colours.

So

[Glorious NSE]

I wonder what proportion of train services run are electric? Although quite a lot will be powered from the stabiliser rail rather than OHLE, I bet its far more than 20%

 

It is - 60% of passenger journeys nowadays - but that's not ever been very relevant to what folk choose to model...

[Glorious NSE]

A think the risk of keeping the difficult stuff out of a GB module standard, is that it will merely end up as a poor man's copy of the USA oriented freight forwarding operations model, but just with slightly different trains/colours.

 

Nobody has suggested "keeping it out" - I suggested that any requirement was developed by folk that want it to be developed, and are better qualified to do that developing, if/when that is wanted by the folk that want to do it.

 

As opposed to a standard being foisted on the rest of the community by folk that won't ever have to use that standard.

 

 

 

Any of the members of the public seeing set ups that completely exclude such highly visible effects, would likely think that module modellers were just another bunch of nostalgic mis-representers of railways past, or worse, possibly actually incapable of modeling what was in front of their faces.

 

Wow Andy - you've managed to be both misrepresent the majority of Britain's railways and insult most of their modellers in just one sentence. Nice going.

[Clive Mortimore]

I was thinking more along the lines that more than 80% of GB railway passengers are carried on lines having OHLE or (mainly in the south) 3rd rail. Which is also so far missing from the discussion. Any of the members of the public seeing set ups that completely exclude such highly visible effects, would likely think that module modellers were just another bunch of nostalgic mis-representers of railways past, or worse, possibly actually incapable of modeling what was in front of their faces.

 

Andy

Andy

 

What if the consensus is to model the GWR during the 1930s. Apart from their stake in the Hammersmith branch the GWR was known for its wide spread electrification.

 

We do not have to model today's railways and should we wish to be another bunch of nostalgic mis-representers but having fun doing so then bring on the fun.

[Satan's Goldfish]

25,000Mv

My god I hope you mean 25,000mV! (I'll need to get cracking on my Tesla Coil if not)

[Andy Reichert]

Hi Andy

 

You seem to be quite active on this topic, are you going to build a module and fly it over to the UK to join in?

 

As for Overhead Line Equipment (OLE) even the real railways have several standards. There are 6 distinct types between Liverpool Street and Colchester and that is only 50 miles.

 

I am looking forward to joining in with a single line passing loop station.

 

Oceano Station is a bit too heavy to send across.

 

Andy

 

What if the consensus is to model the GWR during the 1930s. Apart from their stake in the Hammersmith branch the GWR was known for its wide spread electrification.

 

We do not have to model today's railways and should we wish to be another bunch of nostalgic mis-representers but having fun doing so then bring on the fun.

 

Then you have private group and not an open standard.

 

Andy

[MacRat]

Did I hear OHLE?

http://www.fremo-sued.de/spurh0/imagesrosenheim11ah0/DSCN2147.JPG

http://www.fremo-sued.de/spurh0/imagesrosenheim11ah0/DSCN2195.JPG

 

Source: http://www.fremo-sued.de/spurh0/rosenheimh011a.html

[Andy Reichert]

Nobody has suggested "keeping it out" - I suggested that any requirement was developed by folk that want it to be developed, and are better qualified to do that developing, if/when that is wanted by the folk that want to do it.

 

As opposed to a standard being foisted on the rest of the community by folk that won't ever have to use that standard.

 

 

Wow Andy - you've managed to be both misrepresent the majority of Britain's railways and insult most of their modellers in just one sentence. Nice going.

 

As for not "foisting" a only partial standard on the "rest of us", the current US Free-Mo sets-ups cannot let my Pacific Electric, Key System, or SP Bridge Cars,  from such well known cities, like LA, San Francisco,  run across intervening modules that I have not personally built. Ditto for any scale  models of the ubiquitous SF Bay Area BART, or any of the very popular and recognisable NE Corridor Services trains  using OH, running between other major places like Washington DC, New York and Boston.

 

So De Facto, I (and all those potential others) have been "left behind" so far by their track and/or OH non-incorporation in the US "standard".

 

Even so, I'm not bothered by or complaining about module owners not wishing to construct through running OH. Most of them wouldn't think it belonged on their particular choice of scene and  location and I'd happily agree. But If there was standard for the OH, then they'd at least have the choice, for those that wanted to couple their OH enabled modules to mine. and others in the future.

 

Adding new (figuratively) dimensions after maybe a hundred or so modules have been built, just to save a coupla weeks thinking ahead, is hardly not insulting the intelligence of the remaining modelers either. So now's the time to think about OH, not when a bunch of frustrated OH modellers get too little support when trying to get their non-standard stuff into meets, and end up splitting off to form their own alliance.  (Like 00, 00-SF, EM and P4)

 

Andy

[Clive Mortimore]

Oceano Station is a bit too heavy to send across.

 

 

Then you have private group and not an open standard.

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy

 

So your not joining in but you seem still wanting to tell us what to model.

 

There will have to be some consensus as to area of the country, time period and railways/regions, so we have something that looks to our own eyes a bit better than a train set.  That does not mean it will become a private group. 

 

OLE modellers, strange bunch they are, some want to model LNER 1500v DC, some BR Mk1, others Mk3. I would like to do some BR 1500v DC converted to 25KvA but not the upgraded stuff that is now going up between Shenfield and Chelmsford.

[Glorious NSE]

As for not "foisting" a only partial standard on the "rest of us", the current US Free-Mo sets-ups cannot let my Pacific Electric, Key System, or SP Bridge Cars,  from such well known cities, like LA, San Francisco,  run across intervening modules that I have not personally built. Ditto for any scale  models of the ubiquitous SF Bay Area BART, or any of the very popular and recognisable NE Corridor Services trains  using OH, running between other major places like Washington DC, New York and Boston.

 

As far as I know, none of the current Free-Mo modules in North America (at least, none of the ones i've seen images of) are models of locations that should have OHLE - if that's the case I don't see the slightest issue with their choice not to install it on their modules!

 

So. Andy.

 

Have a group of you who model electric roads got together and built yourselves a handful of Free-Mo modules which can come together to and represent those lines? 

 

Have you been told by existing US Free-Mo groups that if you built them, they wouldn't let you play with them?

 

If the answer to both of those is "No" - then surely it's down to YOU to promote what YOU want, rather than stand outside their group whining about how unfair it is that people haven't put OHLE up on modules where it's inappropriate! 

 

 

But If there was standard for the OH, then they'd at least have the choice, for those that wanted to couple their OH enabled modules to mine. and others in the future.

 

They already have a choice.

YOU have that choice.

YOU can develop that standard.

YOU can use that standard.

Then the standard will exist.

Then if there are others that want that standard, they will join you.

 

Somebody deciding to just get on, build something and show others how it can work is how all of this happens! Whinging about it to folk half a world away on the internet does nothing useful.

 

 

So now's the time to think about OH, not when a bunch of frustrated OH modellers get too little support when trying to get their non-standard stuff into meets, and end up splitting off to form their own alliance.  (Like 00, 00-SF, EM and P4)

 

If there's enough of them that want to join together to contribute a usable chunk of a layout complete with OHLE, then they aren't likely to be frustrated?

[Jon Gwinnett]

The cover/feature layout in BRM this month suggests that with some forethought, modules might not be as wedded to any particular region as we expect.

 

Equally, and at the risk of doing what MArtyn is trying in another place not to, I'm sure if a workable uk standard gets going, then those who want to build ohle, or 3rd rail equipped sections will do so, whether they then run them in isolation or as subsets doesn't matter.

 

If, (big if) we were to aim for a particular line or region then there might be an argument for reproducing one of the popular joint lines, M&GN, S&DJR or an area which saw locos and stock from more than one region (sea wall, scottish lowlands, suburban London) to encourage people who may be unwilling to leave their primary interest.

 

Equally, given how many modellers, like me, have very eclectic taste, then a "neutral" setting might appeal.

 

One final thought, the late 70s blue era probably saw the greatest homogeneity with corporate signage etc spread across the whole nation.

 

I think one good project (S&DJR still my first choice) would spread the word and encourage others to develop their own routes or groupings, rather as happens in the TrainSim world I believe?

Edited July 11, 2014 by Jon Gwinnett

[Jon Gwinnett]

One thing we haven't really touched on is the ability to join larger, more traditionally british layouts into modular setups. The RS Tower layout shows how well this can work, and Roundhouse's modifications to give his layout a place in the modular world show how effective this can be. Imagine modelling your favourite station, but with somewhere for the trains to run that isn't the fabled "rest of the world" of hidden sidings...