Birkenhead - Chester

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Just wondering, in particular regarding BR days, did Castles and (later) Westerns ever work into Birkenhead Woodside, or did smaller (tank) locos work the Paddington/Bournemouth trains to Chester where the larger types were attached on reversal?

[LMS2968]

It was generally Class 4 tanks and Crabs which worked Birkenhead - Chester. The train reversed there so attaching another engine at the trailing end simplified the job.

[DavidLong]

Whenever I travelled on the Paddington trains it always seemed to be a Class 4 tank. Not usually lucky enough to get a 'Crab'!

Here's my own photo of 42616 at Woodside with a Paddington train. Sorry about the quality but it was taken on a Kodak Brownie 127 . . .

 

[Tony Wright]

Whenever I travelled on the Paddington trains it always seemed to be a Class 4 tank. Not usually lucky enough to get a 'Crab'!

Here's my own photo of 42616 at Woodside with a Paddington train. Sorry about the quality but it was taken on a Kodak Brownie 127 . . .

 

42616 Birkenhead Woodside.jpg

Great picture David.

 

As a Cestrian (one born in the delightful city of Chester) I travelled regularly between its General Station and Birkenhead Woodside in the late-50s/early-'60s and it was always behind a Class 4 tank 2-6-4T, usually the Stanier variety but occasionally a Fairburn one. These trains ran fast, with just two intermediate stops at Hooton and Rock Ferry.

 

When I was a trainspotter at Chester (starting mid-'50s) occasionally it was a Standard 80XXX or 82XXX which arrived from Birkenhead and I've been told (but I can't remember it well) that GWR 51XXs 2-6-2s were regular performers, including 5174, 5177, 5179 and 5184, all of which were shedded at 84K. Though GWR tender engines appear in pictures from time at Birkenhead shed (four 'Granges' were shedded there in the mid-'50s - 6831, 6841, 6859 and 6878), I cannot ever remember them working passenger trains between the General and Woodside. Big GWR tanks used to regularly go across the top end of the triangle at Chester on oil trains and others. 'Crabs', too, but never on passenger trains in my memory, but it must have happened.

 

I wrote about my urchin experiences in Chester in BRILL late last year and early this year.

 

Finally, if a modeller were to put the BR emblem so low on the tank side of a model of 42616, he/she would be told it's in the wrong place!

[robertcwp]

Here are a couple of 2-6-4 tanks on the trains between Chester and Birkenhead:

 

42587_apprChester_0835-Birkenhead-Padd_5-3-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

42616_BirkenheadWoodside_1967 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

The trains reverted to steam haulage between Chester and Shrewsbury - such as here:

 

42616_BirkenheadWoodside_1967 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

5MT_nrWestonRhin_JAN-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

[DavidLong]

I enjoyed the reminiscences, Tony and the photos from Robert. Before Woodside closed a school pal and I had a favourite journey. We would get the 3rd rail electric from Southport to Liverpool Exchange, the ferry from the Pier Head to Woodside and steam from there to Chester. A dmu would take us to Crewe which was followed by the excitement of a high-speed run to Lime Street behind a 25kv electric loco. The 3rd rail then took us home from Exchange.

I haven't any recall of Great Western locos at Chester as the London Midland had taken over by then as illustrated by Robert's photo of the Black 5 at Weston Rhin. I believe that some exciting runs were to be had between Chester and Shrewsbury on these trains and I seem to recall that they appeared in one of Cecil J Allen's articles in a contemporary magazine.  

By the way, I have seen a colour photograph of 42616 at Woodside at the same period as my photograph and not only are the smokebox door hinges 'bulled up' but the front number plate has a backing of maroon paint. The B.R. Database records it as being a Birkenhead engine form 12/2/1966 and was transferred away to Low Moor on 17/6/1967.

 

David

[robertcwp]

 

By the way, I have seen a colour photograph of 42616 at Woodside at the same period as my photograph and not only are the smokebox door hinges 'bulled up' but the front number plate has a backing of maroon paint. The B.R. Database records it as being a Birkenhead engine form 12/2/1966 and was transferred away to Low Moor on 17/6/1967.

 

David

Like this?

 

42616_BirkenheadWoodside_5-3-67. by robertcwp, on Flickr

[DavidLong]

I like the photo Robert but it's not the one that I recalled. I think it's in one of my books but I can't lay my hand on it at present. I suspect that it was a much photographed engine as that period was coming up to the time of discontinuance of the Paddington trains and, consequently, there were more enthusiast visitors to Woodside than usual.

 

David

[runs as required]

Before Woodside closed a school pal and I had a favourite journey.

I enjoyed another great out and back journey via Woodside while a student at L'pool in the 1950s.

First was a Wallasey ferry to Seacombe, then a totally LNER train across Queensferry into Wales to Wrexham Central. You rode in Gresley teaks with watercolours of Sandsend and Hunstanton above the seats

Then back from Wrexham General behind a Castle to Chester,  the 2-6-4T back to Woodside, a fine old Birkenhead Corpy coal fired steam ferry across to the Pierhead and finally back by tram to my digs opposite Binns Road.

dh

PS

I used also to row on Birkenhead docks, where there were GW panniers to be seen I seem to remember. What used to be special about Woodside was the great variety of Western coaching stock in evidence, and also the malachite green Southern rake of Maunsells for the through train to Margate.

[DavidLong]

I enjoyed another great out and back journey via Woodside while a student at L'pool in the 1950s.

First was a Wallasey ferry to Seacombe, then a totally LNER train across Queensferry into Wales to Wrexham Central. You rode in Gresley teaks with watercolours of Sandsend and Hunstanton above the seats

Then back from Wrexham General behind a Castle to Chester,  the 2-6-4T back to Woodside, a fine old Birkenhead Corpy coal fired steam ferry across to the Pierhead and finally back by tram to my digs opposite Binns Road.

dh

PS

I used also to row on Birkenhead docks, where there were GW panniers to be seen I seem to remember. What used to be special about Woodside was the great variety of Western coaching stock in evidence, and also the malachite green Southern rake of Maunsells for the through train to Margate.

 

Strangely enough, my friend and I never travelled the ex-LNER route to Wrexham although by the mid-1960s it would have probably been operated by a Derby DMU. My first journey on it was taken recently by an ATW Class 153 from Bidston to Wrexham Central with the added surprise of the latter now being in the middle of a retail park. A walk across Wrexham took me to General and an ATW 175 to Chester with a Merseyrail Class 508 back to Liverpool. All thoroughly enjoyable but I suspect that your journey may have the edge in terms of the motive power employed and the finish with a tram ride home!

One thing that did surprise was that after a sparsely populated run from Bidston the train was positively invaded at Shotton and remained that way to Wrexham. When I checked the usage figures I found that patronage across both High Level and Low Level had increased between 2006 and 2012 by 50% and now handles a quarter of a million passengers annually.

 

David

[Bulleidnutter]

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/birkenhead_woodside/index2.shtml 

 

Just to prove a something other than class 4s got to Woodside. A quick search also shows 73139 also brings up

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/sidlow/7129517777/in/photolist-gDXi9v-bS1Dfi

[LMS2968]

The reason I commented on the Crabs working the Birkenhead - Chester leg is that I hold the Archive for the Stanier Mogul Fund, and there are about a dozen sightings of this class on these workings. They were a common engine at Birkenhead although still in all probability outnumbered by their Hughes-designed cousins, so I'd suspect that they too worked the trains. Whether or not this was a regular part of their diagrams or were substitutions in the event of a Class 4 tankie being unavailable, I couldn't say.

[gc4946]

Kenn Pearce's book "Shed side on Merseyside" (Sutton Publishing, 1997) says on p.107:

 

"Castles also worked into Birkenhead each year, up to 1958, on Paddington-Woodside Grand National specials, although the final race specials in 1959 and 1960 were relegated to 'Halls'. The last known recorded appearance of a 'Castle' at Birkenhead was as late as Christmas 1964."

The loco in question was 7014 Caerhays Castle, just after Christmas 1964 (cited on p.112 in the same book)

 

On 5 March 1967, 7029 Clun Castle and 4079 Pendennis Castle both in preserved GWR livery, appeared on the line to mark the end of regular steam, and through trains, on the Paddington-Birkenhead route (p.121)

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

On 5 March 1967, 7029 Clun Castle and 4079 Pendennis Castle both in preserved GWR livery, appeared on the line to mark the end of regular steam, and through trains, on the Paddington-Birkenhead route (p.121)

The specials they were working terminated at Chester I believe - the two 'Castles' definitely went no further.  All in all a good day and I had an absolutely cracking run from Salop to Chester on a Paddington Birkenhead train behind a Black 5 with a maximum (3 independent timers) of just over 90 mph.  A sad day but a good day out.

[beast66606]

Clun Castle made Woodside on 05 March 1967 when it worked a Woodside - Snow Hill "Farewell" special and it also worked a "Farewell to the Zulu" from Paddington - Birkenhead and return on 04 March 1967

 

There is no record of a Western ever visiting Woodside but ...

[The Stationmaster]

Clun Castle made Woodside on 05 March 1967 when it worked a Woodside - Snow Hill "Farewell" special and it also worked a "Farewell to the Zulu" from Paddington - Birkenhead and return on 04 March 1967

 

There is no record of a Western ever visiting Woodside but ...

Must have got my days wrong Dave - was the 4th the Saturday?  Both engines arrived at Chester on the Saturday one of them working The Zulu (I wonder where my pics are?)

[beast66606]

Must have got my days wrong Dave - was the 4th the Saturday?  Both engines arrived at Chester on the Saturday one of them working The Zulu (I wonder where my pics are?)

 

4th was indeed the Saturday

[DavidLong]

Here's a couple of pics with the Kodak Brownie of Clun Castle departing from Chester with the return Zulu. Not great quality as usual but, in addition to the Castle, it's nice to have the LNWR gantry in the background.

Note that the photos were taken without track permissions or any high visibility clothing

 

 

 

David

[class"66"]

Interesting stuff,wil follow this thread now...  

[JohnMartin90125]

I have the feeling that there is a picture on flickr of a BR-liveried Castle in Birkenhead, have looked several times on flickr to look for prototypical rolling stock for my forthcoming attic layout. I do have some pictures but as don't have copyright to them, it would not be fair of me to repost them.

[TangerineWizards]

Strangely enough, my friend and I never travelled the ex-LNER route to Wrexham although by the mid-1960s it would have probably been operated by a Derby DMU. My first journey on it was taken recently by an ATW Class 153 from Bidston to Wrexham Central with the added surprise of the latter now being in the middle of a retail park. A walk across Wrexham took me to General and an ATW 175 to Chester with a Merseyrail Class 508 back to Liverpool. All thoroughly enjoyable but I suspect that your journey may have the edge in terms of the motive power employed and the finish with a tram ride home!

One thing that did surprise was that after a sparsely populated run from Bidston the train was positively invaded at Shotton and remained that way to Wrexham. When I checked the usage figures I found that patronage across both High Level and Low Level had increased between 2006 and 2012 by 50% and now handles a quarter of a million passengers annually.

 

David

 

The Borderlands Line through the Wirral towns and villages has to compete with the Wirral Line over on the other side of the peninsula which provides a more convenient trip to Liverpool for most. I'd rather drive to one of Merseyrail stations and park than walk to the ATW service a mile from my door and change at Bidston. Places like Heswall and Upton also enjoy a frequent bus service to Liverpool thanks to Merseytravel. Electrification would make it much more attractive to use but that still seems a long way off. 

[Siphon208]

HI All!

 

There is a great pic on here somewhere, of a Class 40 approaching Chester North Junction, from Birkenhead, with the two central running lines having been cut- has anyone else seen it?

 

Dean

[D854_Tiger]

Just wondering, in particular regarding BR days, did Castles and (later) Westerns ever work into Birkenhead Woodside, or did smaller (tank) locos work the Paddington/Bournemouth trains to Chester where the larger types were attached on reversal?

 

I'm not so sure the Westerns even reached Chester on a regular basis.

 

During the 1960s, the formations of Paddington - West Midland expresses were strengthened to fifteen coaches (to take the strain off the WCML during electrification), necessitating at first King class, then Westerns and later (as the London Midland reached ever further south) class 47s.

 

The normal routine was for those trains to shed around half their coaches at Wolverhampton and to lose the more powerful locomotive.

 

The Kings were restricted anyway and I know the Westerns normally gave way at Wolverhampton to a Black 5 or Standard 5.

 

There was one remaining mid-day ten coach formation for Shrewsbury that retained its Warship loco all the way, the only service to be worked by the locomotives that were originally intended for the route.

 

By about 1966, when steam had more or less gone, I'm guessing the class 47s would have worked beyond Wolverhampton but I'm not really sure.

 

Prior to 1962, Paddington - West Midland trains were only ten coach loads, with mostly Castles, so probably both carriages and loco worked through to Chester.

 

One final point, an edition of Backtrack had a feature on the line and mentioned that the portions to Birkenhead were often diagrammed with whatever was available between freight turns on that busy Wirral line.

 

By way of example, a wonderful colour picture of a 9F running tender first on a Paddington express was reproduced.

[beast66606]

HI All!

 

There is a great pic on here somewhere, of a Class 40 approaching Chester North Junction, from Birkenhead, with the two central running lines having been cut- has anyone else seen it?

 

Dean

 

https://flic.kr/p/gHs7a1

[Siphon208]

https://flic.kr/p/gHs7a1

Thanks, 

a great shot- any idea about the trackwork?