Bachmann announce Class 90 (OO)

[AY Mod]

Re: Decoders.

 

Quote

Consumers wishing to operate the forthcoming Bachmann Branchline OO scale Class 90 locomotive on DCC must use a 21 Pin Decoder which is configured for servo motor operation. To coincide with the launch of the locomotive, a new 21 Pin Decoder will be available which is pre-configured specifically for use in the Class 90. The decoder, item No. 36-569, has an RRP of £39.95 and will be available from Bachmann stockists.

 

For consumers wishing to fit sound to their model, a suitable decoder that can operate servos must be used and the model includes information on the relevant CV settings required to configure your decoder correctly for servo motor operation. Suitable sound decoders are available from both ESU and Zimo.

 

Use of the model with a non-suitable DCC decoder could result in damage to both the decoder and the servo motor that operates the pantograph.

 

[PaulRhB]

On ‎22‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 11:28, brittannia said:

Seems to my point of view, the decoder business for the class 90 is just the latest effort of the DCC Purchaser having little choice when buying a Bachmann product, same as any sound locomotive Bachmann bring out. I personally would prefer to choose my own decoders to fit to my locos.

You CAN choose any decoder but they are just warning you that it needs to be configured correctly or it could damage the mechanism. Basically they are just covering themselves under the warranty terms. If you know what you are doing then you can spend the time configuring it as required and save £10-15 but they are offering a pre prepared decoder for those who aren't confident and probably cheaper than some people would charge you for configuring it!

There is plenty of choice with their other locos on sound if you don't like their pre done option and several outlets offer the same locos with the sound chips removed too, if not remove it and sell it separately as loads of people will happily buy them!

[Markwj]

How much for the decoder currently considering dropping my pre order from 2 to 1 of the class 90's!

[James Makin]

1 hour ago, Markwj said:

How much for the decoder currently considering dropping my pre order from 2 to 1 of the class 90's!

 

Well it says £40 above, I mean wow! There goes my plan of popping in my £8 Hattons jobbies 

 

Bachmann’s cost must be all them separately fitted detail parts on the decoder...now where’s a Hornby ‘Design Clever’ one when you want it! 

 

Maybe the next batch of 90s they’ll sort out another way, it’s asking for trouble with the general public putting out a loco that could be damaged by using standard NRM style decoders..! Price you pay for innovation I suppose, will be exciting to get it all and have it working, something we’ve only really seen lovingly scratchbuilt by Andi Dell (Dagworth) until now, how time moves on!

 

However with this specific need for certain decoders, it’ll make buying a secondhand Bachmann Class 90 from an exhibition a complete gambling minefield, that is for sure! 

[Markwj]

Also considering the wording in Andy's post above are Bachmann planning some kind of launch for the models or will they just send out to retailers as usual without ceremony?

[MGR Hooper!]

A poseable, finescale and accurate representation of a BW-HS pantograph would've been so much easier now... Can get smaller locos at the cost of that decoder.

 

I was actually starting to get excited by it, and was thinking of going DCC...

[Pete the Elaner]

11 hours ago, James Makin said:

 

Well it says £40 above, I mean wow! There goes my plan of popping in my £8 Hattons jobbies 

 

Are Hattons decoders really only £8?

 

After trying out a Zimo MX600 & seeing how much better it is than the basic Hornby or Bachmann decoders, I was happy to pay the extra. The price gap has since got to less than the price of a beer, which works in even more favour of the Zimo.

These are all 8 pin decoders but if the speaker is going to be pre-wired, the 90 will have a 21 pin fitting. The cheapest 21 pin decoders usually cost a little more.

 

After bad experiences with all previous Bachmann decoders I have bought, I would not trust Bachmann's special 90 decoder to drive the loco nicely.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Are Hattons decoders really only £8?

The price gap has since got to less than the price of a beer,

I’m not drinking in your pub anytime soon.

[AY Mod]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I would not trust Bachmann's special 90 decoder to drive the loco nicely.

 

I believe the decoder for the 90 is a Zimo.

[Markwalker67]

15 hours ago, James Makin said:

 

Well it says £40 above, I mean wow! There goes my plan of popping in my £8 Hattons jobbies 

 

Bachmann’s cost must be all them separately fitted detail parts on the decoder...now where’s a Hornby ‘Design Clever’ one when you want it! 

 

Maybe the next batch of 90s they’ll sort out another way, it’s asking for trouble with the general public putting out a loco that could be damaged by using standard NRM style decoders..! Price you pay for innovation I suppose, will be exciting to get it all and have it working, something we’ve only really seen lovingly scratchbuilt by Andi Dell (Dagworth) until now, how time moves on!

 

However with this specific need for certain decoders, it’ll make buying a secondhand Bachmann Class 90 from an exhibition a complete gambling minefield, that is for sure! 

 

This is the way class 90 are going to be Bachmann will not change them in the next batch because of the pantagraph 

[Markwalker67]

13 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

I believe the decoder for the 90 is a Zimo.

There is not many decoder out there to run pantagraph for class 90 and yes it is zimo decoder

[NIK]

Hi,

 

I wonder if a £20 Zimo 638D will do the job (programmed before installing in loco) instead of Bachmanns special Class 90 decoder?.

 

Or does the Class 90 have a stay alive capacitor built in that it relies on to supply enough current to the servo?. The MX634D and MX638D have a 200ma limit on the 5 V line. A 9 gramme SG90 clone servo measured 600ma when moving but I guess the Class 90 will be using a smaller servo.

 

Also if the loco can be damaged by its servo being fed by a continuous or pulsed 12V signal instead of pulsed 5V signal then what happens if the DCC decoder is reset to the state that produces 12V on its servo output?. What happens if the servo end positions get adjusted accidently or by the user?.

 

I guess not many modellers have a DCC decoder tester that can program 21 pin decoders so that's a reason for Bachmann to supply a special DCC decoder for the Class 90.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Sir TophamHatt]

All it needs is someone to work out which CVs to change though?

There must be a small minority of people who use a DCC Controller, that doesn't allow changing of CVs and don't have a JMRI/SPROG?

From comments I've read around the forum, it appears most have one or the other or both.

But hassle factor = 100%!

I thought Bachmann were standardising all their low drive motor PCBs (a la S Stock) to be the same (with small tweaks)?  Then again, I suppose this is a specific feature rather than a PCB/decoder issue.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Sir TophamHatt

[NIK]

10 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

All it needs is someone to work out which CVs to change though?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There must be a small minority of people who use a DCC Controller, that doesn't allow changing of CVs and don't have a JMRI/SPROG?

 

 

 

 

From comments I've read around the forum, it appears most have one or the other or both.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But hassle factor = 100%!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought Bachmann were standardising all their low drive motor PCBs (a la S Stock) to be the same (with small tweaks)?  Then again, I suppose this is a specific feature rather than a PCB/decoder issue.

 

 

Hi,

 

I inferred from the Bachmann info that damage could be caused if a decoder was plugged in that was not already setup correctly.

 

So a DCC PCB with 21pin plug will be needed in order to programme a non special decoder before it is fitted to the Class 90. The PCB may also need a motor type load in order to produce the acknowledge pulses used by DCC during programming on the programming track output.

 

DCC PCBs with 21 pin plug used to be around £10 but I've just bought some off E-bay for £3.50 (for fitting to kit built multiple units). One could fit a suitable value resistor to simulate a motor.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[brushman47544]

1 hour ago, NIK said:

What happens if the servo end positions get adjusted accidently or by the user?.

 

I guess not many modellers have a DCC decoder tester that can program 21 pin decoders so that's a reason for Bachmann to supply a special DCC decoder for the Class 90.

 

Anyone who uses Bachmann’s entry level E-Z Command system will not be able to change CVs. And those users are I suspect more likely to be people who don’t know the ins and outs of DCC and will expect to be able to plug in any 21pin decoder they have and expect it to work, not knowing the Class 90 is different. Retailers will have to warn purchasers and/or sell them the special decoder or they may end up with lots of warranty returns when the servo fails.

 

presumably the special decoder maintain the correct CV values for the 90 even if fully reset?

[Pete the Elaner]

I saw it mentioned earlier that Andi Dell (Dagworth) modified a pan to operate with a DCC function. I remember speaking to him about it at DEMU Showcase in Bretby, so that would have been quite a few years ago.

 

He used memory wire but found that only 1 brand of decoder was suitable (Lenz I think) because there was something different about the way they controlled functions. I cannot remember exactly why, possibly the ability to use a pulsed function output.

What was not mentioned was whether some CV settings had to be changed to enable the function to work properly for this.

Other, newer decoders may now be able to provide the required output.

 

That may go some way to explaining why Bachmann feel it necessary to recommend a dedicated decoder.

[adb968008]

If I understand it right, at rrp of £179 for DCC ready, before retailer discounts it comes with a built in servo motor for the pantograph ?

 

so if I go DCC all i need is the compatible chip ?

 

first thoughts, for the price, thats not bad. But if your DC only, can you raise the pantograph without damaging the servo motor ?

[James Makin]

11 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Are Hattons decoders really only £8?

 

Indeed they were!

 

I got fed up always running out of decoders so I bought about £250 worth of them from Hattons in maybe 2015 - basically a huge boxful to keep me going for years, 8-pin & 21-pin direct’s, they even included a fair few extra in the box, I’ve never worked out whether it was error or complimentary for someone crazy enough to buy so many! 

[brittannia]

On ‎23‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 13:04, PaulRhB said:

You CAN choose any decoder but they are just warning you that it needs to be configured correctly or it could damage the mechanism. Basically they are just covering themselves under the warranty terms. If you know what you are doing then you can spend the time configuring it as required and save £10-15 but they are offering a pre prepared decoder for those who aren't confident and probably cheaper than some people would charge you for configuring it!

There is plenty of choice with their other locos on sound if you don't like their pre done option and several outlets offer the same locos with the sound chips removed too, if not remove it and sell it separately as loads of people will happily buy them!

 I do know all the above, however there are Railway Modellers who do not read RM Web, and are not "savvy" with what you have noted, and in the end Bachmann are charging  near £200 after 15% discount for a Class 90, plus if you wanted sound you would need the Zimo decoder plus sound files and your costing will near be £300.I have a feeling this could be shot in the foot for Bachmann.

[Br60066]

Could all the decoder caper be what delayed these models in the first place?

[blueeighties]

19 minutes ago, brittannia said:

 plus if you wanted sound you would need the Zimo decoder plus sound files and your costing will near be £300.I have a feeling this could be shot in the foot for Bachmann.

Why? Lots of new loco/sound decoder combos are already very near or at that price point. Hasn't stopped folk buying them.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, brittannia said:

 I do know all the above, however there are Railway Modellers who do not read RM Web, and are not "savvy" with what you have noted, 

But there are the traditional means like modelshops and clubs too that spread the info those that don’t search the web  

I’ve found plenty on Dcc on other sites without joining them too. I think those wanting the models are equally savvy on options without RMweb that’s all. A few may plough in without the pre-info and not bother reading the warning and they can’t really blame Bachmann. 

Time will tell  

[jjb1970]

I think Bachmann are being sensible and pragmatic in recommending a dedicated DCC chip if it needs to be specially configured for the pantograph. If people are comfortable about adjusting CVs then they do not need to buy the special chip but many customers will lack the confidence or knowledge to do it and the last thing Bachmann or their customers want is a mass of Class 90's being damaged and returned for repair because of a DCC chip issue.

[Haymarket47]

50 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

But there are the traditional means like modelshops and clubs too that spread the info those that don’t search the web  

I’ve found plenty on Dcc on other sites without joining them too. I think those wanting the models are equally savvy on options without RMweb that’s all. A few may plough in without the pre-info and not bother reading the warning and they can’t really blame Bachmann. 

Time will tell  

Absolutely - and there is also the Model Railway mags and YouTube to spread the word too. 

[Legend]

Presumably it will have instructions stating the need for a special decoder. Might be best to enclose a separate leaflet in red for folk that don’t normally read instructions  in the style of Rapidos read this first . 

 

Given the need for a specialised decoder I would have thought the sensible route would have been to offer the model DCC fitted which would have stopped folk installing the wrong decoder and analogue for those that don’t need DCC gubbins or pantograph  that can be remotely raised or lowered . 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Legend