Agenoria WR 1366 Pannier for Pencarrow Bridge

[2ManySpams]

So this is the kit I've avoiding. Lots of shiny shiny metal.

 

 

 

 

It looks great and many folk on here rate the Agenoria kits, so that's good.

 

I have, however, never built a 7mm loco before and the attempts I had in 4mm were only suitable for the bin or to use as narrow boat ballast weights. Hopefully starting a thread, asking stupid questions and making a start will encourage me to crack on a make something that actually looks like the image on the box and runs!

 

Help along the way will be appreciated.1566

 

 

NOTES TO OTHERS CONSIDERING THIS KIT (28-09-14):

Below are a summary of my findings and thoughts on the kit based on it nearing completion after three months of work. This is my first 7mm loco kit and my opinions will probably not match those with greater kit building experience. The comments below are intended not to put off people from buying the kit (it's probably still the best option if you want this loco) but to enable an informed decision to be made.

 

General

The etched parts come in Nickel Silver and are crisply formed, with pairs of parts and overlays matching very well. I found the NS is much nicer to work with than brass. The castings are lost wax brass and come attached to their casting sprues. Before you start or buy the kit:

1. Check you have all the parts. My kit had some missing. This includes the castings on the lost wax brass sprues and the bearings screws and washers.

2. Check the quality of the castings. My chimney was oval and the buffer shanks had holes in the sides.

3. With hindsight I wouldn't buy the kit with a motor and gearbox. It may be me but I felt the mesh and noise from those supplied were poor.

4. Note that the instructions state that "the cab fittings and pipes are generic Agenoria , if you want an exact representation of the fittings and backhead detail, you will need to research this yourself". If you aren't bothered by accuracy then the kit will be fine, if you are then you'll need to do some work.

5. IMO the boiler castings could be better. The dome appears to be too small and has casting lines. The safety valve cover is crude compared to others from, say, Laurie Griffin. The tank fillers are completely the wrong type (they should be oval) and are crude. The chimney supplied was misshapen.

6. For a small class the locos had lots of variations between them. Choose a loco and then work from photos when applying detail like steps, rails and pipes. I recommend getting a copy of the Pannier Papers book covering the 1366 class.

 

Diagram 1 - the Chassis

The main chassis is bent up from a single etch into a U shape with spacers fixed between. The axle / bearing locations were accurate and everything fitted well. Notes:

1. Part 3, the compensation beams, are designed to be fixed by a screw and bolt. I tried this but found there was too much slop (for, aft, up down) between the hole in the beam and the screw thread. It was also difficult to adjust the tightness of the bolt without either having the beam too loose or too tight. The instructions tell you to insert the bearings through the frames and then solder them to the compensation beams. This means they are fixed for good. Following advice on here I inserted the bearings from behind which means that the units are removeable and adjustments can easily be made.

2. Part 14, the motion brackets, sit too high up the frames and are not inclined. I adjusted the tab and slot so that they sat lower and leant forward at the base like the real loco. When I fitted the slide bars I also found that these were held too far away from the frames at the bracket end. This may be intentional to give clearance but looks wrong. This required the part of the motion bracket next to the frames to be thinned down.

3. Part 13, the slide bars, these are etched in pairs with spacers to aid accurate soldering. Once soldered up remove the spacers as they hold the slide bars too close together to enable the crosshead to fit (even if the crosshead grooves are deepened).

4. Part 10, the cylinder former, fold up nicely but, if I were starting again I'd put the small hole next to the slidebars / crosshead. As designed the crosshead flopped around in a very large hole. Part 12 and casting 100 don't address this and so I inserted some brass tube to provide a guide. The casings should be inclined when fixed to the frames, nearly touching the top of the frames at the upper-front corner and roughly following the slope on the underside of the frames. The cylinder casings are designed to be bolted to the frames - great idea as this helps finetuning the chassis and painting. Fixing with one screw and bolt allows these to move and drift, I added a second pin to aid location.

5. The hatched area marked up as potentially needing removal is fine with the supplied gearbox and motor. The section of the top spacer shown folded down slightly should be completely removed however. Best do this before bending and soldering up the frames.

6. Fix parts 16 and castings 103 at the end - they will get in the way!

 

Diagram 2 - the Chassis continued...

1. As above, fix parts 16 right at the end.

2. Fix the crosshead vacuum pump assembly (parts 26, 27 and 104) right at the end - they will get in the way when you're removing and replacing the wheels countless times!

3. The cylinder wrappers (part 21) are too narrow and only just fit on the former. I added some packing to the inside of the cylinder casing former to give something to fix too.

4. The kit makes no provision for the large sand boxes which should be located behind the rear cab steps and instructs that you simply fix a length of brass wire to the frames. This is an omission IMO.

 

Diagram 3 - the footplate...

1. All the major parts (28, 29, 31, 32, 33 and 34 fit well together although it is easy to mix up the similar but different buffer beam etches when they are cut out!

2. I fitted parts 30 and 36 early on but left the remainder of the castings and etched details until much later.

3. The rear cab step etches are well designed and go together well.

4. The front RHS step (parts 40 and 41) is best fixed to the frames rather than the footplate.

5. Some locos had two toolboxes (casting 113), the kit supplies one but the second can be requested.

6. I felt that the toolboxes (casting 113) and from sandboxes (casting 108) were quite crude. I will be making up replacement sandboxes and obtaining better castings for the toolboxes.

 

Diagram 4 - the cab...

I had some real issues here with parts not being the correct size. it may have been me but I can't see how / why some of the parts can be different widths.

1. Note that IMO, and when compared to drawings and photos, the half-etched outline of the tank in the cab front is too high.

2. The curve in the top of the cab sides is best formed when part 43 is still flat.

3. The cab bunker rear (part 47) is wider than the front of the cab and indeed the cab rear sheet (part 48).

4. Part 46 (bunker top beading) is also much wider than the cab and needs a section taking out of its width.

5. I used the narrowed part 46 to set the location and radius of the curves in the top of the bunker rear. This did result in a section of part 43 (from the two bits that form the upper part of the bunker rear) needing to be removed. The resultant cab unit (set to the width of the cab front and rear sheet (part 48) is marginally too narrow for the tabs in its base to engage with the slots in the footplate. The slots for the the rear sheet tabs are nowhere near where they need to be. I cut the majority of the tabs off.

6. Part 46 (cab floor) is not required as it looks nothing like the profile of the floor of the real loco. It raises the floor above the bottom of the cab doors, blocks the bottom of the firebox opening door and has holes for the cast parts in the wrong place. Refer to photos of the real thing!

7. It's a mystery why parts 53 (smokebox wrappers) are fitted free form to the footplate. As etched they are designed to fit between part 60 (smokebox rear which is also fixed to the footplate) and parts 61&62 (smokebox front laminations, which are fixed to the tank assembly). If you want to maintain access to the tank void for adding weight or DCC electro gubbins, then the assembly sequence doesn't help by giving you a sealed box. This could be much better thought out and I modified my loco to come to pieces and maintain access to the tank void.

8. The cab roof (part 49) has a nice curved join with the rolled over cab sides. This makes a join in a removeable roof not easy to disguise (certainly beyond my skills). I opted to solder the roof on and maintain access to the cab interior by making the cab / tank assembly removeable from the footplate.

9. The bunker rear (part 47) should have a curved interface between it and the cab sides. The instructions advise to use a good fillet of solder on the inside join and then file the curve in. I've inserted a square section of brass into the corner and then filed this to a curve.

10. The biggest issue for me with this stage is that the parts and instruction diagram provided for you make up a non-prototypical backhead and cab interior for the loco. The etched backhead profile (part 83) is the wrong profile, should have larger radius corners at the top and has holes in the wrong places to fit incorrect castings. Why, why, why? One of the locos is preserved and surely it wouldn't be beyond Agenoria to provide the correct parts and provide sketches showing where these should go. Is this just laziness??

 

Diagram 5 - the Tank Assembly...

It was this stage that almost have me abandon the kit. Without doubt forming the tanks has proven to be the most significant challenge of the build so far, not assisted by the main tank wrapper (part 65) being supplied partly preformed. Helpful? Well no, not if the bends are in the wring place and to the wrong radius. Another 'helpful' feature that proved otherwise was the half etched lines put in to help form the lower tank radiused bends. These turned out to be etched in the wrong place. Other notes:

1. The instructions tell you to punch out all the rivet detail in the tank wrapper (part 65). DO NOT DO THIS. The tanks on the real loco are not riveted.

2. As already stated it is my belief, when comparing the tank and cab interface with drawings and photos, that the half etched tank outline is set too high and needs lowering. Thankfully several of the parts below the tank (parts 36 and 60) already suit the lower level and there would otherwise be a gap between the tank underside and these parts. The tank / smokebox front (parts 61 and 62) suit the higher tank mounting height and need to be reduced. The boiler underside (part 69 which is thoughtfully pre-rolled) also suits the higher tank mounting level (perhaps plus a bit). I've cut a gap in the underside of the tank so that the the boiler underside fits up and within the tank underside. That all done the tank will sit at what I think is the correct level.

3. Tank filler castings (part 123) are not correct for this loco. They are round and should be oval. They are also quite crude compared to castings available from others. Two types of tank breather valve (part 121) are thoughtfully provided check which one suits your chosen loco.[

4. The less said about the quality and fidelity of the chimney (part 117), dome (part 118) and safety valve cover (parts 119 and 120) the better. I've sourced alternatives.

5. Tank lifting mounts (parts 122) are reasonable but the front pair are shown on the diagram to be orientated incorrectly. They need rotating through 180 degrees.[

6. Sandbox fillers (part 124) should not be fitted to the shelf in the cab sheet rear. The rear loco has them just inside the cab door opening on the floor. Likewise a small casting (part 125) and the bit of bent 0.7mm wire should not be fitted - there's no sign of them on the rear loco.

7. The real loco has the handbrake (part 114) on the fireman's side and this is set into the cab rear sheet. A semi-circular box should be visible in the bunker. This is not accounted for in the kit and the instructions tell you to place the handbrake on the wrong side.

 

Diagram 6 - the Finishings

I've still lots of smaller bits from the earlier stages to complete yet but there's a few bits from the final diagram that I can comment on so far:

1. The tank top braces (parts 75, 76 and 77) make up nicely and locate well in the tank top slot. Note , however, that the front brace should be much shorter on most (all?) locos and this needs to be trimmed down.

2. The balance pipe cast (part 126) doesn't appear to match the shape of the item on the real loco and, as cast, is wider than the holes in the tank undersides into which it should fit. I believe though that it is the holes that are wrong in this case. I'll be forming this pipe from some thick copper wire instead of using the casting.

 

Conclusions

Overall the kit is producing a nice looking model of a distinctive prototype. It has, however, required much more work to produce than i was expecting from a newly available kit from a supplier with a good reputation.

 

I'm aware that a test build has been done as there's a finished model on the Agenoria stand BUT I'm amazed that this didn't highlight any or all of the issues reported above. Did the builder not feedback? Does the manufacturer not care? At the very least additional notes in the instructions should have been made.

 

In my view the following should be corrected:

1. Bring consistency to the widths of the three main cab bulkheads and adjust part 46 to suit.

2.

 

TBC

[Horsetan]

Apparently CSP are hoping to release the 4mm scale version of this towards the end of this year.....

[81A Oldoak]

So this is the kit I've avoiding. Lots of shiny shiny metal. 

 

 

 

 

It looks great and many folk on here rate the Agenoria kits, so that's good.

 

I have, however, never built a 7mm loco before and the attempts I had in 4mm were only suitable for the bin or to use as narrow boat ballast weights. Hopefully starting a thread, asking stupid questions and making a start will encourage me to crack on a make something that actually looks like the image on the box and runs!

 

 

 

 

Help along the way will be appreciated.

 

I'm utterly hopeless at building 4mm scale chassis, but find I can get 7mm scale chassis rolling freely at the first attempt most of the time, even those with outside cylinders. I always build mine with three-point compensation.

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

1566

[chaz]

Ooooh! Lots of lovely lost-wax brass castings. Yummy. My Peckett had a few and very nice they are.

 

Just a small point - etched-brass frets would be easier to see if you photographed them on a darker background...

 

best of luck with your build.

 

Chaz

[gwrrob]

Good luck with this build Chris.It looks a great kit of a super prototype.Plenty of support will be forthcoming from this thread I'm sure.

[N15class]

Should be a good one to start on. The agenoria kits I have built went together very well. The only really fiddly bit I see is the pannier tanks, but I see these are done for you.

 

Will follow with interest and aid where I can.

[2ManySpams]

Should be a good one to start on. The agenoria kits I have built went together very well. The only really fiddly bit I see is the pannier tanks, but I see these are done for you.

 

Will follow with interest and aid where I can.

 

Interesting bit about the pannier tanks is that are pre rolled but the instructions say to unroll them to punch the rivets and then re-roll them. Hardly seems worth rolling in the first place!

[Miss Prism]

Interesting bit about the pannier tanks is that are pre rolled but the instructions say to unroll them to punch the rivets and then re-roll them. Hardly seems worth rolling in the first place!

 

The 1366 class didn't have rivets on the tanks.

[N15class]

Interesting bit about the pannier tanks is that are pre rolled but the instructions say to unroll them to punch the rivets and then re-roll them. Hardly seems worth rolling in the first place!

It happens a lot, I prefer all parts in the flat. You may be lucky and be able to punch the rivets by easing it open a little.

[Indomitable026]

Keep avoiding it - have a beer......

[2ManySpams]

Keep avoiding it - have a beer......

 

Cheers!

 

[Indomitable026]

Cheers!

 

IMAG4493.jpg

Just enjoying a nice Pinot Grigio .....

[2ManySpams]

Right, whilst that nice Mr Ross is entertained drinking white and looking at photos of beer, lets do a Take II on the kit photos (this time with a blackish background):

 

Odds and sods of wire and a strip of PCB

 

Castings - 4 pairs of castings, so I've taken them in pairs - one of each side

 

Castings - odds and sods including the boiler fittings

 

 

Wheels, gearbox and motor

 

First question is - is this combination of motor and gearbox likely to result in a nice, slow running loco?

[N15class]

Right, whilst that nice Mr Ross is entertained drinking white and looking at photos of beer, lets do a Take II on the kit photos (this time with a blackish background):

 

Odds and sods of wire and a strip of PCB

IMG_7754.JPG

 

Castings - 4 pairs of castings, so I've taken them in pairs - one of each side

IMG_7730.JPG

 

Castings - odds and sods including the boiler fittings

IMG_7731.JPG

 

IMG_7733.JPG

 

Wheels, gearbox and motor

IMG_7734.JPG

 

First question is - is this combination of motor and gearbox likely to result in a nice, slow running loco?

Well it won't break the sound barrier. The ABC site only goes to 30-1 gear ratios which would be a scale 40MPH.

 

 

Edit to give right info

Edited July 8, 2014 by N15class

[gwrrob]

What gear ratio is it ? 60/1 perhaps and do you get a bell in the castings.

[2ManySpams]

The next batch cover the frets:

 

Fret A Frames

 

Fret B Cylinders and Motion 1

 

Fret C Cylinders and Motion 2

 

Fret D Main Flat Bit

 

Fret E Smokebox

 

Fret F Cab

 

Fret G Cab Rear

 

Pre-rolled bits

 

Odds and Sods

 

Edit on 29th September 2014.

The pre-formed tank etch was a major hindrance. The top bends were in the wrong locations and the bottom half etched lines not on the bend!

 

Edit on 20th August 2016.

Almost 2 years later I discovered the root cause of the tank issues. Overall the tank front and rear formers are some 2-3mm too narrow. The tank wrapper would be correct if the formers were wide enough.

[2ManySpams]

What gear ratio is it ? 60/1 perhaps and do you get a bell in the castings.

 

40/1 I think and no, there's no bell. 

[N15class]

Looking at the photos of the prototype as Miss Prism says they are no rivets. I think the panniers may well be used on other kits that do require them, and the bit it the instructions is a copy and past rather than written for the kit.

 

The etches look really nice compared with some I have used lately.

[Horsetan]

...no, there's no bell.

 

Sort of ironic, given that the bell on 1369 was stolen a few months ago.

[2ManySpams]

Looking at the photos of the prototype as Miss Prism says they are no rivets. I think the panniers may well be used on other kits that do require them, and the bit it the instructions is a copy and past rather than written for the kit.

 

The etches look really nice compared with some I have used lately.

Just been looking at that point myself and indeed there are no rivets!

 

Edit 29-09-14

This should have been an early warning to me to treat the instructions with care. It was the first of many instances where the instructions were misleading, parts to be fitted were inappropriate for this loco and the fit of etched parts needed adjustment.

[2ManySpams]

Apparently CSP are hoping to release the 4mm scale version of this towards the end of this year.....

 

Just had to look up who CSP were - I see they are basically Agenoria but 4mm.

[2ManySpams]

Ooooh! Lots of lovely lost-wax brass castings. Yummy. My Peckett had a few and very nice they are.

 

Just a small point - etched-brass frets would be easier to see if you photographed them on a darker background...

 

best of luck with your build.

 

Chaz

 

You are indeed correct - lots of castings and a black background is better!

[chaz]

 

First question is - is this combination of motor and gearbox likely to result in a nice, slow running loco?

 

It might. Fold-up gearboxes like that one can be set up to run very nicely but often they give problems. My advice - make up the geabox (you already have all the parts) and if it performs well then you've scored. If it doesn't then cut your losses and invest in an ABC - they will fit your motor on it for you. An ABC will be an expensive solution but in my opinion worth every penny.

 

Chaz

[puddlejumper]

It might. Fold-up gearboxes like that one can be set up to run very nicely but often they give problems. My advice - make up the geabox (you already have all the parts) and if it performs well then you've scored. If it doesn't then cut your losses and invest in an ABC - they will fit your motor on it for you. An ABC will be an expensive solution but in my opinion worth every penny.

 

Chaz

Have to agree there, ABC gearboxes are top quality if a little pricey

[2ManySpams]

Looking at the frame etches, it appears to be designed to be compensated. So no worry about cutting out holes for horn blocks. This bodes well IMHO. I have rigid and compensated 0-6-0s and the compensated ones run better as far as I am concerned.

It appears to use etched twin beams, so you may not even a need to buy/borrow a set of axle alignment jigs.

 

Well spotted that man, it does indeed include etches for twin beam compensation. It was mentioned when buying the kit though that the beams don't fit/wok unless other bits are moved. Can't quite make out why that would be but I'm sure that it will become apparent!