Modular system operation

[kevinlms]

The manifests/switch lists as above were created with JMRI Operations - these are very configurable and it would be very feasible to modify them into a TOPS-list style for 1970s+ UK operations.

 

(I could knock up an example TOPS style one if anyone is interested?)

 

Whilst doing it by wagon number is certainly nicer, it's not compulsory, and would be a lot harder with the smaller lettering on most modern (BR+) wagons - JMRI can also work in simpler forms, for example if you took the wagon number column out it'll tell you to pick up (say) 5 mineral wagons from a track, if there's more than the 5 there then the program will not care which 5 get picked up.

 

One possible downside of these is that computer printed lists may "feel wrong" for pre-1970s scenarios?

What about Harry Drummond's Wagonflow?

 

http://www.trainflow.com/wagflow.htm

 

Not sure if it runs on more modern computers.

[PaulRhB]

It's more to get people thinking of what type of layout could be adapted or built as I said it's a hypothetical to get people thinking.

[Donw]

A timetable is simply a framework Don - it sets out when you can run trains of different types without them operationally getting in the way of each other although it is a fairly simple task to add balances (i.e when an incoming train has to return) and of course it takes account of platform/siding capacity (an equally simple task provide you have some graph paper and drawing implements, and a rubber (eraser should the PC police chucker go beserk).

 

What you 'populate the timetable with is a different matter and whether or not a particular loco does or doesn't fit is really down to the initial standards and compliance with them.

 

Specials are easy if you know where you can run them and a proper timetable graph will tell you that at a glance  (even if you're looking at it upside down although as it happens German TT graphs are easier to read upside down than any others in Europe).

Well you are a professional Mike so have probably a lot more experience than me. I have own some timetabling for layouts and some operating. I was just imagining on the friay night before a show getting the modules set up but not really having much idea of the stock available. By the time setting up is finished it is usually near closing time and you are bushed so bit of a sweat to get it ready for the morning. Perhaps they are more organised than I imagine.

Don

[The Stationmaster]

Well you are a professional Mike so have probably a lot more experience than me. I have own some timetabling for layouts and some operating. I was just imagining on the friay night before a show getting the modules set up but not really having much idea of the stock available. By the time setting up is finished it is usually near closing time and you are bushed so bit of a sweat to get it ready for the morning. Perhaps they are more organised than I imagine.

Don

Maybe it's because I'm used to writing timetables against the clock in the middle of the night that people will be using to get to work the next morning - ooops, it's already tomorrow and lots of folk downstream needed this before I even started writing it  (it's even more fun trying to do it in two languages ).   When you're used to having to do 'bang out' jobs like that other things tend to come more easily.

[MacRat]

For our module meetings we usually have a closing date for module applications about 3 or 2 months before the meeting. The meeting is advertised about 12 to 6 month in advance. This allows for planing the layout and the timetable and to discuss this with folks. And, this allows participants to plan their travel and other activities too.

[Donw]

For our module meetings we usually have a closing date for module applications about 3 or 2 months before the meeting. The meeting is advertised about 12 to 6 month in advance. This allows for planing the layout and the timetable and to discuss this with folks. And, this allows participants to plan their travel and other activities too.

Ah! that will make it much easier.

Don

[Kenton]

 

For our module meetings we usually have a closing date for module applications about 3 or 2 months before the meeting. The meeting is advertised about 12 to 6 month in advance. This allows for planing the layout and the timetable and to discuss this with folks. And, this allows participants to plan their travel and other activities too.

Finally, a grain of reality into this timetable discussion.

 

Have we not been putting the cart before the horse? What comes first is the module. People will build - in effect - what they want to build not to some over planned design of module types. A meeting of modules should be announced well in advance. Maybe with a theme in mind. Modules will be offered up (some complete some planned) some may have appropriate stock some may not (depending on trains supplied by other operators).

 

Only at this stage can the modules be blocked out in an interconnecting design. Then and only then, can timetabling begin. Conceivably with no goods work modules or perhaps no passenger stations. Who decides on the overall design, who selects which module to be next to another. Who rejects or simply leaves out a module because it doesn't fit in with the timetable (eg 10 small passing station modules all joined up in a row with no corners/junctions/branches, or 6 MPDs?)

 

Only when the module connection plan is finalised can the timetable be drawn up. Even then it should not be last minute (unless a module fails to show/doesn't connect/was dropped on the way into the venue).

[PaulRhB]

Are you going to build a module Kenton?

Valid points in your post but you don't build a railway then decide how to work it in real life, you build the railway to meet a need and provide that flexibility to operate as efficiently as possible, the same can be true of choosing to build for this idea.

Submitting modules in advance is obviously necessary to make sure it fits or it will take all weekend to come up with a layout. You can swap odd plain run boards here and there to create more space.

Understanding a basic railway structure that will supply opportunities to operate realistic traffic with a simple timetable structure that can be adapted to the chosen layout simplifies creating the actual timetable. The diagram I drew is actually based on a simplified version of the Poole to Weymouth line with branches at Swanage and Dorchester providing feeder traffic. Obviously the industries are different but I was trying to suggest a concept you could find anywhere. Taking the modules and using real lines as a basic plan means you can actually look at real timetables for the era and simplify that part too.

Understanding the type of operation possible means you can choose to build modules that will complement others. In the US meet it became apparent there were lots of 'stations' so people chose to build plain runs or junction options to open up more possibilities.

The other idea was to consider that a country line may be a better theme than trying to build a mainline as you'd need a lot more plain running and big stations which take a lot more time and space to build.

The modular thread has several references to building a roundy, effectively just a larger exhibition layout, that would allow operation but doesn't give such a sense of going somewhere.

Having operated on a garden line on that theme I found the multiple end freemo concept more realistic while being equal in terms of running trains.

[ZiderHead]

Have we not been putting the cart before the horse?

 

I think a discussion about operating is very worthwhile to provide inspiration for potential module builders, and to illustrate the potential of module-based meetings and the fundamentally different nature of these layouts compared to traditional exhibition or home layouts.

 

Something which quite a few participants of the other thread seem to be struggling with given all the discussion about how the spec will need 18" curves to fit in with their spare room home layouts, how exhibition visitors will be able to easily view and access the layout and the obsession with roundy layouts …

[Steve-e]

Been new to all this I'm finding it very interesting, I take it theres a control desk giving out the work orders and I like the TOPS era idea. I suppose if the layout is DCC it is also possible to position locos at certain points so you could also simulate a loco rostering desk?

 

Is there any program that you would be able to simulate TOPS location reports for locos for example something along the lines of these for Northwich 1984(as an example of the report) would be very interesting.

 

POWER REPORT FOR NORTHWICH AT 12.16 ON 31.05.84

 

 

NOTHING TO REPORT OUT OF SERVICE LOCOS

 

MAINLINE LOCOS ON HAND OK ********************

 

LOCO     DP     SP  T    BK          NEXT        NEXT       PREASSD    O     FUEL     TIM-AV       WTT     ALLOC

NO         AL     CH  H   TY    RW EXAM       MAJOR    TO HRDY      P     HRS      HRDYMO       1            2

 

LOCATION-37204-NORTHWHSD M&EE

20077   TO            O   VA            A 37         B 124                             N    000?F     193005

20141   TO            O   VA            A 37         B 115                             N    000?X     193005

47205   CD   S M  C    XA           A 33         B 202                             N    061 F       083105         LV66

47246   BR            O   XA           A 29         B 48                               N    000?F      093105         6E26

47348  CD   S M   O    XA          A 11          B -52         CD 0601      N    044 F       033105         6Z45

 

 

NOTHING TO REPORT TRAINS

 

LOCOMOTIVES ALLOCATED TO ARRIVE *********************

 

LOCO    DP   SP  T     BK          NEXT       NEXT        PREASSD      O   FUEL         WTT TO          WTT

NO         AL   CH  H    TY  RW   EXAM      MAJOR     TO HRDY       P   HRS           ARRIVE          ALLOC

 

LOCATION-37122- OAKLEIGH ICI

20163    TO          O   VA           A 22          D 163                              N   000?F         6F43

20173    TO          O   VA           A 22          B 16                                N   000?F         6F43 

 

 

LOCATION -37130- NORTHWICH BR

20185   TO            O   VA         B 27           B 27                                N 000?F           6F42                6H46

20186   TO            O   VA         B 42           B 42                                N 000?F           6F42                6H46

47205   CD  S M    O   XA        A 33           B 202                              N 061?F            LV66

 

 

END

 

NNNN

 

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

POWER REPORT FOR NORTHWICH AT 13.31 ON 04.02.84

 

NOTHING TO REPORT OUT OF SERVICE LOCOS

 

MAINLINE LOCOS ON HAND OK ********************

LOCO     DP      SP      T      BK              NEXT      NEXT           PREASSD    O    FUEL     TIM-AV                WTT   ALLOC

NO          AL      CH      H     TY   RW     EXAM      MAJOR        TO HRDY     P    HRS       HRDYMO                1          2

 

 

LOCATION-37204- NORTHWHSD M&EE

40022     KD       C       X      XA             A 7           B 181                                N   065 F       110402                6H46     6F44

 

 

LOCATION -37233- MIDDLEWCH BRIT SALT

40104    LO       C       X       XA            A 27?        D -659                              N   000?F      090402                 LB31

 

 

TRAINS DUE TO ARRIVE WITH LOCOS FOR DETACHMENT ********************

LOCO   DP      SP      T       BK            NEXT         NEXT        PREASSD      O   FUEL           E.T.A.       TRAIN                WTT        ALLOC

NO        AL      CH      H      TY   RW   EXAM         MAJOR     TO HRDY       P   HRS           HRMIDY     IDENTITY             1                2

 

LOCATION-37122- OAKLEIGH ICI

40015   CD       C      C       XA             A 1?           E -564                              N   042 F         125904       056M27C 04      LV55

25119   CD               O       VV             A 35           B 204                                N  035 F         150804       346F43C  04

 

LOCATION -37130- NORTHWICH BR

47049 HA        M      C       XA   NH    A 19            B 56           HA 1631          N 000?F         134004      346F42C 04

47289 TE     S M      O       XA            A 44            B 185                                 N 028 F          141004                                 TRFD      0Z00R

 

LOCOMOTIVES ALLOCATED TO ARRIVE *********************

 

LOCO   DP    SP      T      BK           NEXT           NEXT        PREASSD         O FUEL                            WTT TO               WTT

NO       AL     CH     H      TY  RW    EXAM          MAJOR     TO HRDY          P HRS                              ARRIVE                ALLOC

 

LOCATION-37011- WINSFORD BR

25195   CD             O       VV NM     A 35?           D1614                                 N 097 F                                4Z28                    0Z00

 

 

LOCATION-37122- OAKLEIGH ICI

40022   KD     C      X       XA           A 7                B 181                                 N 065 F                                  6H46                     6F44

 

 

LOCATION - 37130- NORTHWICH BR

40015  CD     C       C      XA            A 1?             E -564                                 N 042 F                                  LV55

 

 

 

 

END

 

 

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

 

 

 

I suppose it is all dependant on the boards available on the day but I could see this been a fun part of the set up.

 

Cheers

Steve

[Talltim]

Before I start I'm aware that I may be coming across as trying to seem like an expert rather than a guy who has been to one meet and didn't manage to get his module complete enough to take!
However...
For the recent Freemo meet the idea was floated about 11 months beforehand and once there seemed to be enough enthusiasm Northpoint started organising the venue. This was simplified by it being the venue that he uses for the Trent Valley North American Modellers exhibition that he organises so another organiser or team might have to put some more work in.
A date was set and people set to work building, some already had modules or layouts. About two months before the event people were asked what they would be bringing and Martyn started planning the arrangement. He would be able to say how hard this was to do.
Once he had a rough plan he let people know and as far as I know no-one objected, however as an example of what could happen I warned him that my module would probably not be ready and he also made a plan B. As it turned out it wasn't ready, but luckily someone else had a module with a similar function (four end points) that could be substituted. As you say, only at this point could he start planning the operations.
Even at the last minute Northpoint built a couple more plain track modules, as these didn't affect the operations it was simple to add them in, spacing out the feature modules.
We had a fair bit of spare space left in the hall, I would imagine we would fill it quite well next year, so we didn't really have the issue of having to leave anything out this time. We probably had a surfeit of junctions but we only had one end unused, however the central junction module has 5 ends!
As for choosing who did what, it seemed to me, at least to fall naturally to those with experience and who wanted to do it and as far as I know everyone was happy with that.

[highpeak]

The thinking so far seems to be focused on the train, but perhaps you could also consider the working of the locomotive crew, since it seems that is more or less what most participants will be.

I offer the following scenarios gleaned from various books, I have never worked on a real railway (though I have done a lot of volunteer work on preserved lines in Wales and the US).

Scenario 1: as a young lad I was fortunate to be able to ride on the footplate of the engine that had worked the evening train from Manchester Central to Buxton. After arrival and shunting the coaches for the next morning's working, the crew took the engine to the shed for disposal. The last part of their shift involved taking an engine from the shed to the LNW side of the station to work the 8:25pm parcels train from Buxton to Manchester(Mayfield) , handing it over to the Longsight crew that would work the train forward, and then booking off.

Scenario 2: freight service over the Buxton-Ashbourne-Uttoxeter line towards the end of the line's existence consisted of one train each way, the trains crossing at Alsop-en-le-Dale. To avoid spending a night away from home, the crews changed over at Alsop.

 

I am sure professional railwaymen can offer much more insight into crew workings, I offer this as an idea to incorporate into operations planning, since a large part of what I am sure would be enormous fun would lie in being a driver on a large layout that could simulate operations on a grander scale than home or even club layouts.

[Kenton]

 

Are you going to build a module Kenton?

 

In with the spirit of have a go - if some other folk are prepared to compromise on their absolutes I can. Boards I can build, track I can lay, electrics no problem, I just stumble when it comes to the colour of my choice of bright blue ballast.

 

It is likely to be simple and potentially boring (a single line through station ?) at least opening the door to participation and who knows

 

 

but you don't build a railway then decide how to work it in real life

 

actually I think the Victorians were quite good at it - starting out with a local purpose (stone

to a quay) then others came along and thought it a good idea to connect everything to London and it would also be a good idea to have a gauge standard...

 

 

Understanding the type of operation possible means you can choose to build modules that will complement others.

While a great look to the future idea I do think that is well beyond us at the moment. The whole concept of interconnecting modules and the operating environment is currently alien to most in Britain. I can see it growing and such groups forming attempting to model prototypical lines but it has to gain overall and general appeal to include as many variations as possible. Not everyone cares for GWR or TOPS or BR blue era.

 

I'm not going to get upset if I see a Class 37 thundering through my single line through station ... well perhaps not too much

[PaulRhB]

Good

While SR, LMS, GWR specific modular layouts aren't likely in this case anytime soon they do exist already, one local to me in 7mm!

The advantage is at first you can concentrate on the train you are working and keep the limitation to a rough time period to start with until it becomes more established. Just ignore the blue ballast and loco

Arranging 1/2 a day for a different period would require an hour or so to swap stock but as we ran from 11am to 9pm that's not going to spoil the day either as most halls can be open until 8 or 9 as they do for show setup and break down.

A single line is potentially more interesting for this than double track as you need the order of a timetable and bring in the reality of waiting for your path. You might not be popular for stopping in section and picking mushrooms

To some extent it will be quieter than any exhibition which gives you time to socialise and relax where real crews might pop in the pub in steam days. You could build in crew diagrams but that restricts the number of operators so allocating trains singly gives more people a chance and yet doesn't stop you booking on again for another go and another type of train. It also means you can pop out for an hour to a real pub if one is close by without bringing the whole line to a stop.

You can have fast clocks to work a timetable by, or just follow the timetable order and wait for the train you are booked to cross. That's where the skill lies in creating the timetable for each meet and why a PC based system generating it allows a more consistent approach if it can be tweaked to represent TOPS lists or just a Working Timetable pre Tops.