Kernow Beattie Well Tank Announcement

[Brinkly]

Here is the alternative! I'm sure it could become an excellent model, but I certainly wouldn't want to try and do it!

 

We have never had it so good!

Edited June 9, 2015 by Brinkly

[ExPatBrit]

Here is the alternative! I'm sure it could become an excellent model, but I certainly wouldn't want to try and do it!

 

We have never had it so good!

But the alternative is not under discussion, so who cares?

I think the reviewer in question did a good job, his comments were overwhelmingly on the positive side. I don't give a rats whether he knows the difference between the Victorian, Edwardian or Georgian ages, how does that invalidate the review?

If anything, the reviewer was being too kind in my opinion, to the poorly assembled axle/bearing on a driver. Other manufacturers have been hung, drawn and quartered for less and I'd suggest the final inspector needs an optician if he didn't see how cockeyed the model sat. It's a worry that's being glossed over, imo and if it was say, Hornby that shipped a model in that condition, posters would be on about it for weeks.

Good honest review from a junior modeller, kudos to him, perhaps his next review will be tougher where it needs to be.

[Ian Hargrave]

But the alternative is not under discussion, so who cares?

I think the reviewer in question did a good job, his comments were overwhelmingly on the positive side. I don't give a rats whether he knows the difference between the Victorian, Edwardian or Georgian ages, how does that invalidate the review?

If anything, the reviewer was being too kind in my opinion, to the poorly assembled axle/bearing on a driver. Other manufacturers have been hung, drawn and quartered for less and I'd suggest the final inspector needs an optician if he didn't see how cockeyed the model sat. It's a worry that's being glossed over, imo and if it was say, Hornby that shipped a model in that condition, posters would be on about it for weeks.

Good honest review from a junior modeller, kudos to him, perhaps his next review will be tougher where it needs to be.

So did you buy the model and subject it to your personal critical assessment? Please post when you have done so. Otherwise.......

[Brinkly]

But the alternative is not under discussion, so who cares?

I think the reviewer in question did a good job, his comments were overwhelmingly on the positive side. I don't give a rats whether he knows the difference between the Victorian, Edwardian or Georgian ages, how does that invalidate the review?

If anything, the reviewer was being too kind in my opinion, to the poorly assembled axle/bearing on a driver. Other manufacturers have been hung, drawn and quartered for less and I'd suggest the final inspector needs an optician if he didn't see how cockeyed the model sat. It's a worry that's being glossed over, imo and if it was say, Hornby that shipped a model in that condition, posters would be on about it for weeks.

Good honest review from a junior modeller, kudos to him, perhaps his next review will be tougher where it needs to be.

 

I'm sure some educated people might care about the alternatives regarding models.

Frankly I'm not going to answer your post on British periods of History, some comments are best not said.

[ExPatBrit]

So did you buy the model and subject it to your personal critical assessment? Please post when you have done so. Otherwise.......

So now we have to satisfy the self appointed posting police by actually owning the model and reviewing it before we can comment on a review by a third party? Last I looked this was a forum which didn't require such a high bar to comment, and certainly didn't need your permission before doing so. Can you point me to the terms of service where that's a requirement. No? Didn't think so.......

[Brinkly]

So now we have to satisfy the self appointed posting police by actually owning the model and reviewing it before we can comment on a review by a third party? Last I looked this was a forum which didn't require such a high bar to comment, and certainly didn't need your permission before doing so. Can you point me to the terms of service where that's a requirement. No? Didn't think so.......

 

Steady on old boy! Reads a little rude to me...

 

Anyway shall we get back on topic, everyone is entitled to their own view and just like politics, everyone thinks their view is right! The lad has done a good enough job, no one is saying he can't have an opinion, but some of us, myself included, don't agree with everything he says. Enough said.

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

[Meld9003]

I've seen a lot of criticism of the reviewer's knowledge of history, but not much of his actual points. A lot of the people having a go at him are picking up on very minor points (e.g the 'business card' issue) to try and invalidate his genuine issues with missing parts and incorrect assembly.

 

These things happen with all suppliers and I am not sure why some people are so defensive about it.

[Stubby47]

I've got one of the original versions of this toy train.  The wheel base is too narrow, the body is not made of metal, the rivets aren't even real, it doesn't steam and the water I put in keeps draining out.

 

But I like it. 

[BlackRat]

No posting police, but to be fair there are any number of clips like this on utube etc which are purely based on a matter of personal opinion.

 

There's a mention of no couplings for starters, which fell out of the add on packet. Ok so there's no 3 links but the coupling hook is there.

 

There's also comment re plenty of room for improvement.....but doesn't really elaborate where?

 

As for accuracy etc well how can you comment without reference to either the prototype, or works drawings etc etc etc.

 

It then becomes someone's opinion as opposed to say an accurate review of a new model.........which has been covered on here before.

 

Unlike say a review carried out by Tony Wright etc which is based on knowledge or at least a good comparison to the prototype.

 

Opinions are a bit like ar*eholes. Everyone has them but some stink more than others.

 

There are numerous examples online to support this.

 

But then that's only my opinion.

 

Simples really.

[Stubby47]

Seems to be far too much contradiction in the review and left me very confused in places to be honest.

Oh! And by the way, Bodmin isn't a long way down south, it's a long way down West !

 

Rubbish !!

 

Bodmin is North East !!

[Ian Hargrave]

So now we have to satisfy the self appointed posting police by actually owning the model and reviewing it before we can comment on a review by a third party? Last I looked this was a forum which didn't require such a high bar to comment, and certainly didn't need your permission before doing so. Can you point me to the terms of service where that's a requirement. No? Didn't think so.......[/quote

But if you subject yourself to expressing an opinion on this forum you might actually help your case if you can evidence it with hands on experience rather than reliance upon second hand opinions.No you need no one's permission.

Remember one salient factor,though. We have a small but significant player in the market.He needs all the help he can get. Constructive criticism can be useful for him and for his client group.So if we set a high bar,then so what? Owning and running his products...as I do...sets that bar at an appropriate level.I do not find his product wanting.You buy and try.Then judge from personal experience rather than jump on someone else's bandwagon.The Internet is full unfortunately of those who abide by experience twice removed.

[Tricky-CRS]

So now you have to be a paid professional to do a review, yes he made errors but life is about learning, someone said his review should be ignored because he is inexperienced well so was I when I was young and so am I now and probably still will be the day I die. Every day we should be about learning something new, irrespective of how old we are or how knowledgeable we may think or know we are. 

 

This lad has taken a first step and yes could have taken 10-15 minutes do some basic research before posting online but I suspect the excitement of youth may have got in the way. How can we hope to encourage the next generation in to this hobby if at the first pass we deride there input as inexperience of youth and invalidate all that is said good or bad on that bases.

[Mod4]

Please can we remain civil to each other and respect differing views.

 

The only note of caution I would add about this particular review is the fact the loco was not purchased direct from the only primary source ie the Kernow Model Centre and was therefore technically second hand so any missing parts or running issues may not reflect the condition in which the model was originally supplied.

[JSpencer]

I think overall the review is relative.

 

He spent £100 and felt the model could have been better (he could have saved a few quid buying a brand new one direct from Kernow. Not sure why Bodmin was selling one secondhand so soon and for more too.....).

 

Now for the same price as a Well Tank, you can buy a Bachmann E4. Relatively speaking it offers better value for money.

 

Relatively speaking, there are other small tank locos out there like the Bachmann 1F which could be considered better all round but cheaper.

 

It is a light loco, the running plate is a bit flimsy and caused a slight list when new until is worked on my pair to an upright position. Maybe Bachmann would have taken a different approach with a Diecast running plate and two screws holding it at the bunker but maybe that would have looked wrong. However no one produced this model in RTR except Kernow and we thank them for their first gallant effort with a small OO gauge steam loco (maybe Dave's first too).

Edited June 9, 2015 by JSpencer

[DJM Dave]

Good afternoon Dave. Thank you for responding so promptly.

 

 

 

Okay - but the link here says it's a "Kernow/Dapol" model. In fact the exact paragraph states:

 

 

 

I think that's a fair summation of events.

 

 

 

Fair enough, my apologies. I am going off the review made. However the point about who has manufactured the model still stands: just having that card in the box would confuse someone not clued up on the well tank's origins.

 

The card itself is also business card sized and shaped so perhaps the reviewer made an assumption he should not have done based on societal practice.

 

 

 

That's fine and I accept that - that looks to be the case from the video now I look at it a second time.

 

 

 

Getting both sides of the story here and getting a reasonable response is key to getting a fair and balanced response.

 

If you've not watched the whole video, you'll have missed out on a lot of praise for the well tank. I personally think as far as reviews go this was better than some professional reviews produced because it got to the crux of the problems with his specific model and offered practical advice should anyone else have a problem with theirs in the manner he did. That, and though he had criticisms, he put them across in an apologetic manner. 

 

 

 

Nobody's perfect: but I think I will agree to disagree on your summation. I thought it to be a very fair practical review which actually gave a lot of a praise to the product in question.

 

 

 

You seem to assume that he'd be aware of DJ Models. As I say, aside from the updates on here and sporadically in the railway magazines, DJ Models is not a household name outside of here so perhaps it's a case of not being aware he had to look for DJ Models. He seems to be aware of Dapol and assumed throughout that it was Dapol made. With nothing on the box indicating it was manufactured by DJ Models and probably nothing at the Bodmin and Wenford Railway indicating it either, how could have have known to look for DJ Models?

 

 

 

Absolutely agree it's subjective. 

 

The one thing I am getting from the negativity on here to this review is that for some, any criticism of a model is akin to dropping a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima.

 

I am astonished by the reaction to a video where the appraisal of the model is, in the main and more than broadly speaking, gushingly positive for the Beattie Well Tank with a number of well observed criticisms which are put in an apologetic fashion. I must ask - because it feels a fair question to ask - did you all watch the video all the way? I watched all 27 minutes of it. I thought the reviewer did a good and fair job and more power to his elbow.

Hiya,

 

I'll try and see the whole video tomorrow as I am currently out of the country and only watched a bit using the free wi if available.

 

You have a valid point about the video and I can only apologise on here to the chap doing the review as I was shooting form the hip and didn't realise his age and experience. Now I know, the whole picture comes clearer and I can review the whole thing more subjectively.

 

To the young man in question I apologise and based on what I have seen so far, think that I was unjust and wrong. If anyone knows is chap please pass on my comments made here.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Bluebell Model Railway]

We all have to start some where though don't we, an yes I would agree some research in to who made it for who, and who owns what, although I think from the comments he's now been given I think he's aware of DJM
Occasionally there are some minor issues on models, maybe that clip or baring popped out in the post, sure that wouldn't of got through Q/C like that, although later on in the review it's still got a limp to it going round a corner, I think personally the younger generation may not know what goes in to one of these commissions and why the price is quite high although in my view reasonable considering how much kit ones used to go for... £200.
  I have corrected him on a few points, that the connection rods aren't plastic, and who makes it and who owns what, it's learning least he listened and understands despite a few trying to confuse him.
Kernow still own the tools so technically it's still the same bar the motor so still is the same model that won that model of the year, came out the same mould anyway...

[mikesndbs]

I am horrified how this has panned out! I only posted the video link to see if there was any truth to the issues found because I have been keen to get one of these locos for some time but had held off due to cash flow issues.

Why there has to be a fight I really do not known, is it not possible to hold alternate views without scrapping?

 

I support Dave (DJ) in his efforts to bring us models we just would not have, I am signed up for a 71 already!

I think Kernow have done a good job as well but I do regard the cost of the various 'specials' as at the top end, but you either buy or you don't buy its quite simple.

 

I think the chap did a good job of his review in many ways, yes there were bits I'd have done differently including prototype history etc but he did ok and no one can honestly criticize, because again you either watch it or you don't.

 

Can you please stop fighting on the back of my original posting now. 

[ExPatBrit]

So now we have to satisfy the self appointed posting police by actually owning the model and reviewing it before we can comment on a review by a third party? Last I looked this was a forum which didn't require such a high bar to comment, and certainly didn't need your permission before doing so. Can you point me to the terms of service where that's a requirement. No? Didn't think so.......[/quote

But if you subject yourself to expressing an opinion on this forum you might actually help your case if you can evidence it with hands on experience rather than reliance upon second hand opinions.No you need no one's permission.

Remember one salient factor,though. We have a small but significant player in the market.He needs all the help he can get. Constructive criticism can be useful for him and for his client group.So if we set a high bar,then so what? Owning and running his products...as I do...sets that bar at an appropriate level.I do not find his product wanting.You buy and try.Then judge from personal experience rather than jump on someone else's bandwagon.The Internet is full unfortunately of those who abide by experience twice removed.

 

Come on, people comment on reviews all the time, I've never seen a requirement to actually own the model before commenting and nor have you, yes I was expressing an opinion on the review, in light of the overly defensive attitude displayed by some. But none of that addresses the serious assembly defect found by the reviewer, which, in my opinion was being glossed over in the haste to discredit the review/reviewer. The size of the manufacturer is irrelevant in the context of defective product being shipped. It's possible another reviewer may have been a hell of a lot more disparaging than this individual, other reviewers have to other manufacturers for less reason. My constructive criticism is, make sure it's assembled properly, particularly if you're going to do 100% inspection and don't rubbish your clientele even if you disagree.

And for the record, I own a Kernow's Well Tank, so not twice removed and no bandwagon. I'm a fully paid up member of the right to comment crew, even by your overarching, non terms of service yardstick.

[BlackRat]

So now you have to be a paid professional to do a review, yes he made errors but life is about learning, someone said his review should be ignored because he is inexperienced well so was I when I was young and so am I now and probably still will be the day I die. Every day we should be about learning something new, irrespective of how old we are or how knowledgeable we may think or know we are. 

 

This lad has taken a first step and yes could have taken 10-15 minutes do some basic research before posting online but I suspect the excitement of youth may have got in the way. How can we hope to encourage the next generation in to this hobby if at the first pass we deride there input as inexperience of youth and invalidate all that is said good or bad on that bases.

Quite, but one of the issues with 'reviews' such as this, on the internet, is that some people will take what is said as matter of fact, as opposed to matter of opinion.

 

We all enjoy the exuberance of youth, and indeed it is good to see young people modelling and of course posting.

 

The opinion re cost is a personal subjective matter, but to make comment that there is room for improvement without say factual support well you enter into a bit of a minefield.

 

Improvement in what way, how, why etc.

 

That's why I personally rely on the likes of those reviews offered in mags, an forums such as these, where opinions can be challenged and not everything said accepted on face value.

 

That hasn't stopped me from buying tho, as ultimately as a consumer ..........I pays me money and I makes me choice and I can live with that.

[ExPatBrit]

Hiya,

I'll try and see the whole video tomorrow as I am currently out of the country and only watched a bit using the free wi if available.

You have a valid point about the video and I can only apologise on here to the chap doing the review as I was shooting form the hip and didn't realise his age and experience. Now I know, the whole picture comes clearer and I can review the whole thing more subjectively.

To the young man in question I apologise and based on what I have seen so far, think that I was unjust and wrong. If anyone knows is chap please pass on my comments made here.

Cheers

Dave

In light of your apology, please ignore my comments in my last post, you've restored some faith that you know which way is up when push comes to shove. But please adjust that hair trigger, you may inadvertantly shoot someone by mistake and the judge won't be laughing when he dons the black cap.

[woodenhead]

In light of your apology, please ignore my comments in my last post, you've restored some faith that you know which way is up when push comes to shove. But please adjust that hair trigger, you may inadvertantly shoot someone by mistake and the judge won't be laughing when he dons the black cap.

Unfortunately Dave has been subject to quite a bit of sniping recently so if he goes all Ronald Regan and shoots first it's probably understandable.

[DJM Dave]

Unfortunately Dave has been subject to quite a bit of sniping recently so if he goes all Ronald Regan and shoots first it's probably understandable.

My mind goes immediately to the show 'spitting image', and the phrase "make Bonzo my chief of staff"

It made oi laff ;-)

[S.A.C Martin]

What puzzles me most about the reaction to this video review is that the negative response all seem to have derided it without actually watching it all of the way through.

 

Taking Dave Jone's comments on board of course (and thank you for that further reply Dave) surely it's time to leave it at:

 

It was a video review from a young modeller. It was honest, it was full of praise for the model, it offered practical advice for a problem which had occurred with his own and made some criticisms (which looked at in the cold light of day are fair and salient) but overall the modeller was happy and satisfied with his purchase overall.

 

And can we please put to bed this nonsense about the only reviews of any merit that we should read are in the railway magazines. It's an absurdity.

 

If someone makes a salient and fair criticism about a model, then it doesn't matter who the source is - either the criticism is right or it's wrong. The reviewer here was right to address problems he found, that was his experience, and we should be mindful of that when forming our own views.

 

As we know from the recent Bachmann Modified Hall release the magazines aren't infallible. They, like any of us, is subject to getting things wrong. Model Rail was the only one of the monthly magazines who addressed the model's shortcomings in a wholly constructive fashion, being the only one to actually identify the problems that model has.

 

The fact remains that, separate to Model Rail, Brian Kirkby had identified this as well and also taken steps to correct his. Nobody else has done that thus far: would you say Brian Kirkby's opinion wasn't as important as Richard Fosters when both reviewers were right?

[S.A.C Martin]

But if you subject yourself to expressing an opinion on this forum you might actually help your case if you can evidence it with hands on experience rather than reliance upon second hand opinions.No you need no one's permission.

Remember one salient factor,though. We have a small but significant player in the market.He needs all the help he can get. Constructive criticism can be useful for him and for his client group.So if we set a high bar,then so what? Owning and running his products...as I do...sets that bar at an appropriate level.I do not find his product wanting.You buy and try.Then judge from personal experience rather than jump on someone else's bandwagon.The Internet is full unfortunately of those who abide by experience twice removed.

 

I really am a bit flummoxed by this post. What exactly are you criticising Ian? The criticism on this thread was towards a review video. You've intimated that owning the model is the only way to review it. Which basically describes the video in question.

 

In fact we should be encouraging more review videos like the one in question because it was:

 

1) honest

2) fair

3) informative

 

and

 

4) detailed. It was 27 minutes long and he covered almost everyone bar taking the body shell off to look at the chassis.

 

It wasn't aimed at a specific audience, it wasn't attacking anyone or unduly criticising the manufacturer and spouting diatribe.

 

It was a video made by a young man, who is passionate about model trains, talking about one he'd bought, and how he wanted to share his experience with other like minded people on social media.

 

He was polite, he was apologetic where he didn't know something or where he had a criticism, and it was - as far as I can see by own yardstick of how I'd like someone to criticise products I make (model railway and children's books) - absolutely fair and balanced. 

 

Now, if you're saying I can't or I'm not allowed to form an opinion on DJmodels' products because I don't currently own any, then you're very much mistaken. I intend to form my view based on that I read and observe of other's experiences and whatever I can muster myself. A spade is a spade - if something is wrong, it is wrong, and it does not matter who's saying it or what intent is behind it - a salient point is a salient point, and that is something Mr Simpson did very well I feel in his review.

 

I will get off my soap box now!

[Gwiwer]

Rubbish !!

 

Bodmin is North East !!

 

From where we call home Stu it sure is.  And it's a day out to get there

 

Owning all three of the first release well tanks (stressed to identify that they may differ in some respects) I took notice of this video and saw it through out of interest.

 

I recall that Kernow MRC did make available a small number of well tanks to the Bodmin & Wenford shop in respect of the real thing being there and mentioned at the time that this was the only source of new locomotives outside their own business.  It is possible that the reviewer purchased one of those and that the locomotive was in fact new rather than second hand.  

 

We now live in times when anyone can post anything on the internet for everyone to see.  What is posted is not necessarily accurate, fair or representative of majority opinion.  There is legal redress when intellectual property, decency, libel and other laws are clearly flouted but personal opinion breaks none of these and is something we all have to live with.  We must learn to live with it now being available at the click of a button.  Those who livelihoods depend upon sales of goods will be keenly aware of the potential for harm to reputation and sales any form of negative comment on the internet can have.

 

If I were to review the review I should suggest it was carried out by an interested but under-informed person with no intent to deliberately mislead, confuse or denigrate.  He speaks and shows as he finds.  Some matters of fact are wrong and some limitations of modelling are not understood.  I wish him well should he try to produce a better model for under £100.  If he doesn't like moulding then he can learn the finer arts of rubbing down and can apply a light weathering into the bargain which will also reduce or remove the "plastic" effect complained of.  That is called "modelling".  These things are not toys - they are detailed scale models.  There is a difference and there is a very grey line which separates the two.

 

I remain more than happy with all three of mine.  Two have run quite a few hours now though 30586 has barely moved as befits its prototype which was usually assigned Wadebridge pilot duties or was out of traffic altogether.

 

That sales have been strong enough to warrant a new batch suggests that on the whole other purchasers are also happy and while our reviewer is also largely satisfied as well there will always be a handful of rogue boxes with either something missing or faulty inside and a small number of those not quite so happy at what they find.  

 

One review should be taken for what it is.  One subjective opinion.  Where possible multiple reviews should always be consulted.  I do that with household goods.  And increasingly, thanks to the internet, I do it with model railway items as well.