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To be seen or not to be seen


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Complacency is not dependant on whether hi viz clothing is worn or not, e.g. "I am wearing hv so I can be seen" versus "I'm not wearing hv but everybody knows that I'm here". The fact is that the railway environment is a dangerous place whatever the line speed, trains are big cannot stop as quickly as a car, cannot swerve to avoid and do a lot of damage when they hit something. PPE, in this case hi-viz is worn where it is not possible to remove the hazard. Hi-viz makes the person on the ground more visible so aiding everybody in the area to make a decision or even shout a warning. When I am out and about working alone on the big railway I have to wear full orange together with safety boots and helmet it does not make trains bounce off me but hopefully it means that drivers etc can see me. If I am working at a remote location and I have a choice between walking along the track or a slightly longer walk along a canal, I'll walk along the canal as I have reduced my time with the hazard and therefore the risk - and of course it is a far more pleasant and easier walking. And before anybody says anything my safety helmet has saved my cranium from bumps, which although not serious would have certainly hurt.

 

In my opinion the only people trackside should be suitably qualified members of preservation societies with a genuinely valid reason for,doing so, etc and not members of the public whether sold trackside passes or not. Preservationists I suggest are generally more aware of the implications of moving trains and it will only take one accident caused by a momentary lapse to create all sorts of issues for the preservation movement.

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In my opinion the only people trackside should be suitably qualified members of preservation societies with a genuinely valid reason for,doing so, etc and not members of the public whether sold trackside passes or not. Preservationists I suggest are generally more aware of the implications of moving trains and it will only take one accident caused by a momentary lapse to create all sorts of issues for the preservation movement.

 

Exactly. Sadly, this will probably happen at some point and I dread to think of the repercussions for preservation in general.

 

Edit: In this age of sensationalist journalism, can you imagine what the media would make of that...?

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On the KESR the rule for "special event" days and most other days is that hivis should NOT be worn by staff on the platform unless their duties involve regularly going on the track. Loco crew rarely wear them unless they are operating crossing gates; I wear one as the duty shunter, but then I'm often on the track; the Tenterden signalman usually doesn't wear one when he's crossing from the box to the platform as he's protected by the crossing gates and the train in the platform.

 

We had an incident training day last year which involved a quantity of "passengers" being evacuated from a train that had failed in the section. We all knew we should carry hivis as we'd be going trackside, but this then caused mass confusion at the incident scene as many of the "passengers" wore hivis as soon as they left the train. We then didn't know who was "train crew" dealing with the incident and who were passengers!

 

Most lines that issue trackside passes brief the pass holder as to the basic safety requirements or insist they have BRS training from another line.

 

Odd how railways abroad don't have boundary fences and don't have the same problems we have with trespassers. Maybe Johnny Foreigner has a better respect for Things That Are Heavy And Go very Fast On Rails.

 

Also recalling a conversation with Leon Daniels a few years back, he'd visited an east London bus garage where all staff have to wear hivis on the ground: one chap wandered across the garage not wearing hivis and stood out like a sore thumb. More people saw him than those wearing hivis.

 

When BR first introduces hi vis in the early 190s, drivers had the choice of a very nice dark blue raincoat or a hivis raincoat in the same style. Most chose the dark blue one. Why? "Cos the guv'nor can't see you going home early" was the usual reply...

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When  I've done shunting demos as part of galas etc I reach a clear understanding with the driver about what we will be doing and brief him that I will not be wearing a hi vis, I then combine a hands free shunting radio (discreetly hidden) and a shunting pole (so you avoid going between), last job is to set up a T2 with the signalman so you are the only traffic within the station limits.  That way you can create the illusion safely without having to dodge round other traffic (still keeping a weather eye out for it though) or endanger yourself, ticks all the boxes as far as I am concerned.

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Boris I'm not sure what illusion you are trying to create other than a dangerous one.

 

Unfortunately you have now publically admitted that you don’t follow the recognised H&S rules, so in the event (hopefully it will never happen) that you do get hit by a train, there is a danger that your post #29 could be used by an insurance company to argue contributory negligence.

 

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Exactly. Sadly, this will probably happen at some point and I dread to think of the repercussions for preservation in general.

 

Edit: In this age of sensationalist journalism, can you imagine what the media would make of that...?

 

There has already been at least one very near miss:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhuqiI7OYFs

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There has already been at least one very near miss:

 

a) that's on the network

 

B ) that's one of the basket cases I referred to in my post previously.

 

Boris has described a very safe, sensible way of doing things, the key to it all being a clear understanding of intent and method of operation between all parties....which is exactly the same as on the network.

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When  I've done shunting demos as part of galas etc I reach a clear understanding with the driver about what we will be doing and brief him that I will not be wearing a hi vis, I then combine a hands free shunting radio (discreetly hidden) and a shunting pole (so you avoid going between), last job is to set up a T2 with the signalman so you are the only traffic within the station limits.  That way you can create the illusion safely without having to dodge round other traffic (still keeping a weather eye out for it though) or endanger yourself, ticks all the boxes as far as I am concerned.

I can't quite understand a 'hands free shunting radio' - the whole point of radio communication between Shunter and Driver is that the shunter keeps pressing the confidence button to ensure the Driver receives the confidence tone, if the tone stops then the Driver must bring the engine to a stand.  In other words it's more or less the electronic equivalent of the standard Rule about coming to a stand if you lose sight of the Shunter - which is there to stop Shunters being killed.

 

If a Railway is carrying out shunting work without correct back-to-back shunting radios they deserve a kick up the back end, ideally before someone gets hurt.  So mayb e it's not as hands free as you implied?

 

Boris I'm not sure what illusion you are trying to create other than a dangerous one.

 

 

Unfortunately you have now publically admitted that you don’t follow the recognised H&S rules, so in the event (hopefully it will never happen) that you do get hit by a train, there is a danger that your post #29 could be used by an insurance company to argue contributory negligence.

Regrettably that could well be the case if my understanding of Boris's post is correct - the Railway would undoubtedly be found negligent for various failings including using unsuitable and potentially dangerous radios, failing to ensure in its Rule Book that the correct type of radios are specified for shunting work, and failing in its training of personnel in shunting duties.  This would not only lead to insurance problems but also prosecution (which would use H&S legislation), probable HMRI review of the Railway's Rule Book, and of its SMS, and training procedures.  

And that, I'm sorry to say,  on a Railway where its Rule Book was found lacking - in a very basic respect - following a previous shunting fatality, seemingly because who ever compiled its Rules was out of touch with events in the wider railway world.  I know I criticise the RSSB Rule Book but at least watching things come into/change in it can give ideas about reviewing principles and practice.

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Gonig back to roythebus' comment - I was on the Harzbahn a couple of weeks ago. No hi-vis for staff (they shunted using radios), no fences, no warning notices, and ungated level crossings. Lots of adults behaving sensibly. Of course, maybe this was because I didn't meet any English railfans except an organised party?

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In my opinion we have strayed away fro the OP (as usual), we seem to be comparing oranges with apples here. Safety is paramount, but I would still contend that the route to that level of safety can be slightly different on a one engine in steam preserved line to that on the 125mph East Coast main Line, for example....of course the goals remain the same.

 

However if the experts disagree then so be it....despite what some people seem to think operations on a preserved railway line do not consist of stumbling from one near miss to another, or untrained, incapable morons indulging their fantasies. 

 

We have to be better than that, and are better than that, while people point out the well publicised exceptions most do not point to the excellent safety record of most of our lines. 

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Gonig back to roythebus' comment - I was on the Harzbahn a couple of weeks ago. No hi-vis for staff (they shunted using radios), no fences, no warning notices, and ungated level crossings. Lots of adults behaving sensibly. Of course, maybe this was because I didn't meet any English railfans except an organised party?

Are they just as safe or do they have more accidents than we do? In Britain it does feel like we've got far more rules and far more people who won't or can't act responsibly and I often wonder how much the two are linked. We have stupid members of the public placing themselves where they shouldn't be and that ends up worrying and irritating (and hopefully no more than that) the people running the railway. The result is more fences everywhere, then the morons seem find a spot without a fence and apparently think "That means it's OK to go there" (or even "that's only a small fence that I can climb over, so it can't be too bad to go there"), a vicious cycle, and one that leaves more sensible people who don't need fences and don't like the authoritarian feel rather annoyed. What's the solution? I think that it lies beyond the railway and is a problem with society in general. I vaguely recall as a kid being at a preserved railway where a loco was moved through an area the public could wander around in (presumably not done these days!) and I found it really very scary. We need a bit more of that healthy fear in some places.

 

But back to the question of shunting rather than people who spoil it for everyone by doing their best to need lots of effort put to keeping them where they should be... Well, I've never had any business trackside so I can't comment. I'm one of those who feel that in life in general there are too many rules but I'm certainly not fit to comment which are the necessary ones in this case, and it may well be an example where if I did know I'd agree that the answer is "all of them" (considering my above point about scary locos).

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Gonig back to roythebus' comment - I was on the Harzbahn a couple of weeks ago. No hi-vis for staff (they shunted using radios), no fences, no warning notices, and ungated level crossings. Lots of adults behaving sensibly. Of course, maybe this was because I didn't meet any English railfans except an organised party?

 

A few years back I visited the Welshpool and Llanfair, and there was a coach party of southern European enthusiasts on the train. When we got back to Welshpool they all started wandering over the running lines whilst the loco was running round without much care for their own safety. It was a miracle none of them got squashed. So not all Europeans are sensible when it comes to safety on preserved railways. 

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Rules on the continent are much more relaxed than over here. 

 

On the SVR. Every photographer wishing to go lineside and photograph must now apply for a lineside permit and attend a Personal Track Safety course so they are aware of the risks/ dangers and proper way of behaving when on the lineside. Working members complete the PTS exam every 2 years. And even working members now must apply for a numbered hi vis vest so they are recognisable as working members. There have been numerous occasions I have confronted photographers who are within the 6ft place of safety rule.

 

At any special event, Platform staff/ photographers are all asked to not wear Hi vis clothing when on the platform. 

Wearing Hi vis is not an instant safety device. It does help you to be seen.

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In my opinion we have strayed away fro the OP (as usual), we seem to be comparing oranges with apples here. Safety is paramount, but I would still contend that the route to that level of safety can be slightly different on a one engine in steam preserved line to that on the 125mph East Coast main Line, for example....of course the goals remain the same.

 

However if the experts disagree then so be it....despite what some people seem to think operations on a preserved railway line do not consist of stumbling from one near miss to another, or untrained, incapable morons indulging their fantasies. 

 

We have to be better than that, and are better than that, while people point out the well publicised exceptions most do not point to the excellent safety record of most of our lines. 

The interesting thing is that the ORR has  perception that things are not entirely as they should be on 'heritage' railways hence a concentration on them in certain areas.  The result in some cases is that the perception has been shown to be correct.  I am not saying that any railway is lax in its standards in the carriage of passengers - I don't think any have been yet found to be directly lacking in that respect - but things have been found to be lacking in a number of safety related areas so ORR/HMRI attention is ongoing.

 

As far as shunting is concerned - getting back to the OP (I hope) apart from volume and frequency (which can pose their own problems) much of what is involved is no different on a heritage railway from the situation on any other railway and some of it applies irrelevant of gauge when you are talking 15 inch gauge and above.  Shunting is dangerous, most personal accidents and injuries that I am aware of on heritage type railways have occurred during shunting and most rolling stock damage that I have heard of has occurred when some sort of shunt move has gone wrong.

 

Are they just as safe or do they have more accidents than we do? In Britain it does feel like we've got far more rules and far more people who won't or can't act responsibly and I often wonder how much the two are linked. We have stupid members of the public placing themselves where they shouldn't be and that ends up worrying and irritating (and hopefully no more than that) the people running the railway. The result is more fences everywhere, then the morons seem find a spot without a fence and apparently think "That means it's OK to go there" (or even "that's only a small fence that I can climb over, so it can't be too bad to go there"), a vicious cycle, and one that leaves more sensible people who don't need fences and don't like the authoritarian feel rather annoyed. What's the solution? I think that it lies beyond the railway and is a problem with society in general. I vaguely recall as a kid being at a preserved railway where a loco was moved through an area the public could wander around in (presumably not done these days!) and I found it really very scary. We need a bit more of that healthy fear in some places.

 

It is extremely difficult to compare mainland European practice with that in the UK.  For a start many aspects of the rolling stock are very different which enables things to be done in a different way and quite often that 'different way' could look downright dangerous to anyone familiar with the way things are done (or should be done) in Britain.  But different features on rolling stock simply mean they are far safer in a mainland European situation.  Equally over there a lot of loco hauled passenger stock has been specifically designed in a way which facilitates it being shunted as portion working has remained in favour long after it vanished here, the 'Berne rectangle' for example has no British equivalent hence we insist staff stand clear whenever vehicles are shunted together, eased-up, or parted .

 

Interestingly many Railways have gradually moved towards the use of Hi-vis clothing for Shunters (e.g hv Tyrolean style felt hats in Switzerland!) while DB was putting bump caps on Shunters' heads long before the idea took root here (n.b. and I do mean 'bump caps', full 'safety helmets' are quite dangerous things to wear when shunting because of their height.

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Well thank you all for your responses. I must admit I didn't envesage quite the level of feedback but it's been interesting.

Can I just say that I realise I may not have worded the OP quite as I should when I said the high vest spoiled the effect.

I am all for safety measures where they are necessary; I was just curious to know what the 'standard procedure' was.

Thanks again for all the input.

Brian.

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Getting back to what's underneath this whole question...

 

What spoiled it for me was a shunting demo where the guy doing the coupling/uncoupling etc was wearing a hi-vest.

 

... it seems to me that we're talking about is "spoiling the atmosphere" of a situation where the visitors to preserved lines are looking for an authentic time-travel experience.

 

Surely high-vis is only one, perhaps the most visible, of very many non-authentic or anachronistic items in the scene. Visitors with modern clothing, replaced parts, modern watches, staff wearing modern spectacles/hairstyles, digital cameras, speech with current-day phrases, the sounds of jet aircraft passing over... And that's without putting on my "ah, but those never ran here" hat.

To me, it is what it is, a re-creation of something resembling the atmosphere of times past. It'll never ever be a real time-travel experience. As such, I can edit out (in my 21st-century head) the high-vis and any other non-authentic elements I might spot in the scene. 

Better that than invisible vulnerable staff on the ground.

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On a lighter note and to echo the comments by eastwestdivide (above), an enthusiast at last year's diesel gala on the NNR was heard to mutter "Well, that's just bloody ridiculous - a Deltic on a Norfolk branch line"...

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On a lighter note and to echo the comments by eastwestdivide (above), an enthusiast at last year's diesel gala on the NNR was heard to mutter "Well, that's just bloody ridiculous - a Deltic on a Norfolk branch line"...

 

I'll see your Deltic and raise you a tender first blue A4 running through 3 ft high weeds such that you couldn't see the track...

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Here is a question for you then, how come you don't see hi vis vests in the railway scenes of period dramas/documentaries on tv?

 

Shunting demos at a gala is no different for it being done for National Geographic under exactly the same circumstances, there are ways and means of doing it in a safe manner in a controlled environment.  BTW hands free shunting radios were in the BRT catalogue when I worked for them in the 90s, and if they were in there they are industry approved, the system of work is simple, you are continuously talking to the driver, the moment you stop transmitting he stops moving.  It also means that you are watching what you are doing not staring at a radio handset, and if you are looking where you should be its got to be safer than starting at the handset?

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I certainly understand the general reasons for the use of hi-viz, but I have a couple of observations, not really for or against, but points to ponder.

 

Whilst hi-viz makes sense for routine operations, I can also see the possibility that, for demonstrations/special events it may be possible to develop methods of working and to maintain human vigilance to an extent which, for the short period and limited number of operations involved, compensates for the additional risk resulting from non-use. Of course, that 'may' also implies the contrary possibility of 'may not', particularly to the satisfaction of the participants, the insurers or, if the worst did happen, the Coroner.

 

On a related note, I've spent a significant proportion of my professional life on mine and construction sites where hi-viz is the norm, as are flashing beacons and warning beepers on mechanical equipment are the norm. A few years ago, I was working on a particularly constricted and busy indoor site (indoor as in large factory unit) where, wherever you were on the site,  there was always something nearby flashing and/or beeping. Usually several somethings, any one of which could kill you. A couple of the other engineers and I agreed that the situation was quite hazardous as it was almost inevitable that anyone working there simply came to accept that they were working in an environment which beeped and flashed. Complacency is a normal human condition and can be very hard to combat.

In which case don't work there. As a manager I really don't want to turn up at the house I've never been to to tell somebody that I've never met that their wife / husband / father / daughter / son won't be coming home. If it is dangerous, don't work there and above all don't expect anybody else to either. 

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Interestingly many Railways have gradually moved towards the use of Hi-vis clothing for Shunters (e.g hv Tyrolean style felt hats in Switzerland!) while DB was putting bump caps on Shunters' heads long before the idea took root here (n.b. and I do mean 'bump caps', full 'safety helmets' are quite dangerous things to wear when shunting because of their height.

I think it could have done with a 'bump cap ' when my company moved office, the new office was classed as a building site, despite the fact that all it was missing when I went was carpet and furniture. Because I'm 6'5", every time I went though a doorway I banged my head and jarred my neck. I'd have been far safer without, but rules is rules. I'll ask for a low profile bump cap next time! Might be useful in my future not-quite-high-enough cellar model railway room too!
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I think it could have done with a 'bump cap ' when my company moved office, the new office was classed as a building site, despite the fact that all it was missing when I went was carpet and furniture. Because I'm 6'5", every time I went though a doorway I banged my head and jarred my neck. I'd have been far safer without, but rules is rules. I'll ask for a low profile bump cap next time! Might be useful in my future not-quite-high-enough cellar model railway room too!

Sheesh. Bump caps, hard hats.... I remember starting with BR in 1973 and ended up at Kingmoor in 1974. It was during my year there that the management came up with the idea of wearing hard hats when working under locos. It took me about a week to get used to not cricking my neck because instead of hitting my head on bits and bobs I started hitting my hat on bits and bobs. Once I got used to working in a restricted height area and learnt to duck down a little bit lower within the space I was working, I was glad to be working with a hat on.

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Here is a question for you then, how come you don't see hi vis vests in the railway scenes of period dramas/documentaries on tv?

 

Shunting demos at a gala is no different for it being done for National Geographic under exactly the same circumstances, there are ways and means of doing it in a safe manner in a controlled environment.  BTW hands free shunting radios were in the BRT catalogue when I worked for them in the 90s, and if they were in there they are industry approved, the system of work is simple, you are continuously talking to the driver, the moment you stop transmitting he stops moving.  It also means that you are watching what you are doing not staring at a radio handset, and if you are looking where you should be its got to be safer than starting at the handset?

Thanks for the radio info Boris - continuous talk on a back-to-back radio when shunting is as good as the confidence tone provided it is correctly used (in both cases).   On the Western I understood that confidence tone versions were the preferred option after experience with continuous talk not being quite as continuous as it should be and taht is definitely the case in some industrial installations.

 

And yes - you can certainly do shunting work without hv clothing - provided the matter has been carefully assessed (as I said in an earlier post).  In the case of filming jobs I think most railways are more likely to use experienced staff and they are perhaps in a slightly different situation in respect of work familiarity from volunteers whose involvement might be occasional rather than frequent - it is very difficult to make consistent provision when those sort of differences exist so the only realistic answer is to go for what is the most realistic option

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Getting back to what's underneath this whole question...

 

 

... it seems to me that we're talking about is "spoiling the atmosphere" of a situation where the visitors to preserved lines are looking for an authentic time-travel experience.

 .

1940's weekends recreated using mk1 coaches and post nationalised liveries/locos stick out far more for me than a hi viz vest. Do any railways do 50's weekends? I'm sure they would be very popular!

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1940's weekends recreated using mk1 coaches and post nationalised liveries/locos stick out far more for me than a hi viz vest. Do any railways do 50's weekends? I'm sure they would be very popular!

 I would like to see railways do a 60s event like the SVR tried a few years back. 

 

Going back to topic. Title of this thread is "To be seen or not to be seen".

I would much rather wear a bright orange hi viz vest and be seen by an approaching train. Rather than one example at an SVR gala a few years back. A guy appeared out of the undergrowth wearing camo gear waiting to take a photo. 

 

Staff will wear it to make sure they stand out from the crowd especially when engaged in operational duties.

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